Wally West vs Sliver Surfer

[big_adventure]

Eh, it was cold enough to instantly freeze Thor Girl (Tarene) into a statue in Thor #35. Thor Girl being someone who, not even including her "prophecy of omnipotence" schtick, ignores spending extended periods of time in deep space, and hell, manages to talk there. So, it's pretty much near enough to absolute zero, sure.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Eh, it was cold enough to instantly freeze Thor Girl (Tarene) into a statue in Thor #35. Thor Girl being someone who, not even including her "prophecy of omnipotence" schtick, ignores spending extended periods of time in deep space, and hell, manages to talk there. So, it's pretty much near enough to absolute zero, sure.

"Their list of arguments against Gladiator grows thin." - Cthulrond, Third Age of Madness

[StupidMoniker]

Morgan beat me to it. Yea Gladiator doesn't have the feats that show his frozen breath can dish out absolute 0 temperatures. Not that I am aware of anyway.

Side note: I love how DC keep dishing out "absolute zero" ice attacks from guys. Seriously in reality; as soon as that gun was fired;the entire area, including Captain Cold himself, would be encased in ice. Which would very quickly spread due to the sheer temperatures and likely take out the planet, turning it into a giant ice cube.

Assuming that is about 9 cubic meters of air (just eyeballing it) being dropped to absolute zero, the energy required to raise the temperature of that air back above freezing would not be nearly enough to drop Cold's body temp alone to freezing, let alone the entire room. The planet is just preposterous. Absolute zero is only 273 degrees centigrade below freezing, and the specific heat of dry air is not that high.

[big_adventure]

Assuming that is about 9 cubic meters of air (just eyeballing it) being dropped to absolute zero, the energy required to raise the temperature of that air back above freezing would not be nearly enough to drop Cold's body temp alone to freezing, let alone the entire room. The planet is just preposterous. Absolute zero is only 273 degrees centigrade below freezing, and the specific heat of dry air is not that high.

Thing is, it is clearly being represented as something vastly beyond that, if not, it couldn't slow the molecules of some guy who moves billions of times the speed of light down to a level where a normal dude with a fancy gun could perceive him.

Either it has some vast negative effect on the local or global environment, or it's not cold enough to do a damn thing. Or, well, it's comics - the authors, especially of Flash, never display a particularly strong grasp of physics.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Captain Cold's schtick also relies on comic book science to generate temperatures of absolute zero and stopping all atomic motion, which is widely acknowledged to be beyond conventional cold tech and powers in the DCU. Does Gladiator actually have feats for hitting those sorts of lows with the freeze breath? Because Wally's operated just fine in basic cold temperatures, and has in fact overpowered Cold's absolute zero fields to boot, as he did a couple pages after the scan you posted.

Yet in still, you've got an instance in issue of 203 of the Flash where homeboy is frozen solid during a fight.

Then in issue 204 (this is Volume 2, by the by), Captain Cold rolls in and says:



So *shrug*. I ain't see it.

[Captain Morgan]

Yet in still, you've got an instance in issue of 203 of the Flash where homeboy is frozen solid during a fight.

Then in issue 204 (this is Volume 2, by the by), Captain Cold rolls in and says:



So *shrug*. I ain't see it.

Are you saying *gasp* that Flash comics might have some PIS in them? Particularly in that scene where Cold himself notes that it must have been an ambush, and an uncharacteristically pathetic peformance from the Flash?

[Surtur]

Yet in still, you've got an instance in issue of 203 of the Flash where homeboy is frozen solid during a fight.

Then in issue 204 (this is Volume 2, by the by), Captain Cold rolls in and says:



So *shrug*. I ain't see it.

Little known fact: three seconds after this happened Captain Cold made sweet love to a chunk of ice.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Are you saying *gasp* that Flash comics might have some PIS in them? Particularly in that scene where Cold himself notes that it must have been an ambush, and an uncharacteristically pathetic peformance from the Flash?

Yet and still, your argument is and was:

Captain Cold's schtick also relies on comic book science to generate temperatures of absolute zero and stopping all atomic motion, which is widely acknowledged to be beyond conventional cold tech and powers in the DCU. Does Gladiator actually have feats for hitting those sorts of lows with the freeze breath? Because Wally's operated just fine in basic cold temperatures, and has in fact overpowered Cold's absolute zero fields to boot, as he did a couple pages after the scan you posted.

Not to mention your claims of PIS and "uncharacteristically pathetic performance" are about as relevant as the C-Lister that ambushed him- if it's not clear I mean 'not relevant at all'- to the fact that he can very well be frozen by temperatures less than Absolute Zero. Similarly, the instance about the cold field you're talking about, in the same issue?

"... Generated a Cold Field around you. Just like old times. You run through that, doesn't matter how fast you're going. You'll slow down. And I'll win the draw." - Captain Cold, Issue #204

So here we have a feat that states that he has issue with the cold. No mention of it being an Absolute Zero, just a cold field- suppose you could make an argument given who it is but that's hardly the point here- he specifically makes a point of mentioning it's around him, so that if he tries to move through it, it will slow him down and allow Cold time to kill him with his gun. Meaning that regardless of what you're claiming now, you're not exactly giving me or anyone reason to believe your claims that Wally would be fine.

I'm pretty sure that Elvish chap from earlier, I think Cthulrond was his name, had the right of it.

"Their list of arguments against Gladiator grows thin." - Cthulrond, Third Age of Madness

*gasp*

Little known fact: three seconds after this happened Captain Cold made sweet love to a chunk of ice.

Scan after he thaws out kind of proves it. Totally looks like he just sealed the deal with Flash Frozen.

Dat Freezerburn? Worth.

[Captain Morgan]

Yet and still, your argument is and was:



Not to mention your claims of PIS and "uncharacteristically pathetic performance" are about as relevant as the C-Lister that ambushed him- if it's not clear I mean 'not relevant at all'- to the fact that he can very well be frozen by temperatures less than Absolute Zero.

My argument is that Flash can vibrate through normal temperature extremes just like he vibrates through most everything else. But like most everything else, it can hurt him if it actually hits him. Flash getting frozen by an ambush and PIS is not relevant. It's like pointing to a an instance of Flash getting hit by Captain Boomerang and saying it's proof that he can't vibrate through thrown weapons. Flash gets hit by stuff he could vibrate through, just plain dodge, or prevent from ever being fired all the time.

So here we have a feat that states that he has issue with the cold. No mention of it being an Absolute Zero, just a cold field- suppose you could make an argument given who it is but that's hardly the point here- he specifically makes a point of mentioning it's around him, so that if he tries to move through it, it will slow him down and allow Cold time to kill him with his gun

Lennard's standard cold field IS absolute zero, and all it does is slow the Flash down. See description below, and what it does to people who aren't the Flash.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2009499

And I'm struggling to find the scan now, but as memory serves despite Cold's claim Wally proceeds to power past the cold field and full out blast from the cold gun.

Eh, it was cold enough to instantly freeze Thor Girl (Tarene) into a statue in Thor #35. Thor Girl being someone who, not even including her "prophecy of omnipotence" schtick, ignores spending extended periods of time in deep space, and hell, manages to talk there. So, it's pretty much near enough to absolute zero, sure.

Do you have scans? Because the only scans I can find for Gladz breath are less than that.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yCTZ-LubAx...ator-14471.jpg

And Superman's done what you describe to Wonder Woman, and his breath has never been described as stopping electrons from spinning like the cold fields.

[AlphaMale]

Captain Cold's schtick also relies on comic book science to generate temperatures of absolute zero and stopping all atomic motion, which is widely acknowledged to be beyond conventional cold tech and powers in the DCU. Does Gladiator actually have feats for hitting those sorts of lows with the freeze breath? Because Wally's operated just fine in basic cold temperatures, and has in fact overpowered Cold's absolute zero fields to boot, as he did a couple pages after the scan you posted.

Wally wasn't able to overcome the cold field right away. And that would only be significant if Len was as fast as Wally. But he isn't.

Gladiator is as fast as Wally.

And while no, the vibrations aren't a cure all, they have been shown to work on enough stuff (from the listed examples to class 100 bricks) to where the burden of proof would be on Gladiator to demonstrate he has comparable exotic examples.

Yes, but how many of those class 100 bricks had Gladiator's speed?

My argument is that Gladiator may not have frozen breath to the degree of absolute zero, but he doesn't have to. He only needs to disrupt Wally's phasing and other powers that result from his vibrating with a cold enough temperature to allow Gladiator to go to work on him.

EDIT: and I'm still not sold that absolute zero is the only temperature that will have any affect on Wally.

[Captain Morgan]

Wally wasn't able to overcome the cold field right away. And that would only be significant if Len was as fast as Wally. But he isn't.

Gladiator is as fast as Wally.



Yes, but how many of those class 100 bricks had Gladiator's speed?

My argument is that Gladiator may not have frozen breath to the degree of absolute zero, but he doesn't have to. He only needs to disrupt Wally's phasing and other powers that result from his vibrating with a cold enough temperature to allow Gladiator to go to work on him.

EDIT: and I'm still not sold that absolute zero is the only temperature that will have any affect on Wally.

Flash has zipped all over the moon on multiple occasions without the temperature being an issue, he's operated in space occasionally, he's shown zero impairment running around in the arctic or fighting guys like Mr. Freeze. If temperatures less than absolute zero can affect his powers and phasing (aside from him standing there and letting himself get hit) I haven't actually seen it.

Besides, Wally can also do stuff like dive underground, and/or start triggering explosions to raise the temperature back up if it's an issue.

[big_adventure]

Flash has zipped all over the moon on multiple occasions without the temperature being an issue, he's operated in space occasionally, he's shown zero impairment running around in the arctic or fighting guys like Mr. Freeze. If temperatures less than absolute zero can affect his powers and phasing (aside from him standing there and letting himself get hit) I haven't actually seen it.

Besides, Wally can also do stuff like dive underground, and/or start triggering explosions to raise the temperature back up if it's an issue.

Wally can do an insane number of things... when he's significantly faster than his opponent. He is not that here.

Just getting back to the heat vision thing: do you have scans for Wally going intangible fast enough to react to attacks moving faster than he does, fired by someone with reactions as fast as his? Because Gladiator's HV quite specifically has feats for being faster than he is, and others amped to his speed, while he is beating time dilation using his Wally West equivalent speed. So, what we have is the equivalent to a normal-speed guy with heat vision shooting a normal-speed guy who has to react to eye-fired, wide-angle heat vision by carefully vibrating his molecules to the point that they evade that. Thing is, as far as I've seen (and I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all of Wally's feats), Wally reacts with vibrations against beings millions and trillions and bajillions of times slower than he is - not to beings operating at his own speed. Once again, Wally using this tactic against, for example, a Kryptonian, means something between Jack and Squat, given that Gladiator's speed is Wally's level, and Kryptonians might as well be statues to both of them.

Back on the freeze breath, Gladiator did the feat I'm talking about, turning Tarene into a Thorcicle, in Thor v2 #35, page 15. Jake (Thor's AE at the time) is down and injured after Glads tries to kill him. Tarene shows up and pulls Gladiator away. He eye-beams her, she gets up, whacks him pretty hard, he flies up, throws a water tower on her, then freeze-breaths her into a statue. She is out of the fight and totally immobile until Sif comes by and cracks the ice. Tarene is fine, immediately after, but she's trapped for a rather significant span of minutes. If you don't know anything about Tarene, she's a mid-tier cosmic called The Designate, who Thor saves from Thanos. To learn about being good, she morphs into an Asgardian goddess, still holding her cosmic power, adding Thor's powers, including a Fakejolnir she willed into being just 'cause.

To be as fair as one might, Gladiator doesn't really have that many feats of freeze breath.

[Captain Morgan]

Wally can do an insane number of things... when he's significantly faster than his opponent. He is not that here.

Just getting back to the heat vision thing: do you have scans for Wally going intangible fast enough to react to attacks moving faster than he does, fired by someone with reactions as fast as his? Because Gladiator's HV quite specifically has feats for being faster than he is, and others amped to his speed, while he is beating time dilation using his Wally West equivalent speed. So, what we have is the equivalent to a normal-speed guy with heat vision shooting a normal-speed guy who has to react to eye-fired, wide-angle heat vision by carefully vibrating his molecules to the point that they evade that. Thing is, as far as I've seen (and I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all of Wally's feats), Wally reacts with vibrations against beings millions and trillions and bajillions of times slower than he is - not to beings operating at his own speed. Once again, Wally using this tactic against, for example, a Kryptonian, means something between Jack and Squat, given that Gladiator's speed is Wally's level, and Kryptonians might as well be statues to both of them.

Two things. One, those eye beams specifically have feats FOR BEING AVOIDED BY GUYS AS FAST AS GLADIATOR.

https://www.google.com/search?q=thor...D3%3B544%3B683

That feats demonstrates the exact opposite of what you are trying to demonstrate.

Second, Flash has vibrated through Hunter "Zoom" Zolomon before, and Bart has vibrated through him to boot. Zoom being a guy who makes Wally and Gladiator look like statues, as you are aware.

On the freeze breath: So what you describe has Tarene encased in solid ice and unable to move because of it. It's either a low showing for Tarene, since being encased in ice shouldn't matter to someone who is ostensibly a class 100, or ice Gladiator makes from normal water is somehow way harder than it should be. It doesn't actually demonstrate that Gladiator's breath is hitting temperatures of absolute zero and/or stopping atomic movement. She just sounds encased in ice.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Two things. One, those eye beams specifically have feats FOR BEING AVOIDED BY GUYS AS FAST AS GLADIATOR.

https://www.google.com/search?q=thor...D3%3B544%3B683

That feats demonstrates the exact opposite of what you are trying to demonstrate.

Not really, especially when he has to violently throw himself out of the way of the first shot, then spin Mjolnir to create a barrier to protect himself from the second shot.

Second, Flash has vibrated through Hunter "Zoom" Zolomon before, and Bart has vibrated through him to boot. Zoom being a guy who makes Wally and Gladiator look like statues, as you are aware.

So your argument for Flash avoiding damage, is to supply PIS for Hunter Zolomon? ... When the cold thing was brought up against the Flash, didn't you immediately jump on the PIS wagon because you thought it had merit? ... Are you really attempting to do that thing where you downplay feats against a guy and supply feats to support your argument that have no actual merit?

Am I being Punk'd?

No?

Am I misunderstanding the point you're trying to make here?

Inquiring Cthulhus need to know.

On the freeze breath: So what you describe has Tarene encased in solid ice and unable to move because of it. It's either a low showing for Tarene, since being encased in ice shouldn't matter to someone who is ostensibly a class 100, or ice Gladiator makes from normal water is somehow way harder than it should be. It doesn't actually demonstrate that Gladiator's breath is hitting temperatures of absolute zero and/or stopping atomic movement. She just sounds encased in ice.

You cling to Absolute Zero as if it is a legitimate argument for the Flash not being messed up by the cold, when the facts are quite the opposite. Not to mention Tarene is at the very least, much more durable than the Flash ever will be, and a cosmic entity to boot, so her being immobilized in one of the few times Gladiator has used his ice breath is notable, to say the least.

Hum..

I'll never understand you humans.

[Cody]

The fact that he had to use water on Tarene first before using his super breath to encase her in ice shows his freeze breath isn't as cold as it needs to be to be that effective on Wally.