So, Batman defeated Superman again

[manduck37]

So has Batman become a supervillain now? It's kind of crazy when you look at Bat's current stories. Gotham has been destroyed a couple of times now in five years. Batman has a whole roster of other supervillains that take up residency in Gotham. Yet Batman only plans ways to take out other superheroes. Did Bruce set up a disaster relief fund after Zero Year? Did Bruce ever come up with a plan for when Ra's unleashes the League of Assassins or for when Joker comes back to town? Batman can spend resources to collect red suns for some battle armor but he can't investigate Penguin's books to prove he's a corrupt mob boss. It's starting to sound like Batman wants all the criminals to wreak havok and prevent anyone else from interfering, so he can be a psychotic vigilante and live out his violent fantasies. He's the ultimate supervillain. He does nothing to actually prepare for or stop criminals before large scale damage is done but is well prepared to fight any superhero around. Then when all the damage has been done, he can swoop in and "save the day". Gotham is known as the most corrupt and dangerous city in the DCU despite being protected by the unstoppable Batgod. Maybe he really does have a god complex and the people of Gotham are his to toy with and indulge his fantasies.

[Agent Z]

I was looking at the scans of this story on scans_daily and a poster highlighted what is the main issue with this sort of thing. It's not that we have a story about Bruce taking on the League and winning when they go evil, it's that it happens to Batman more than any other character. Imagine a story where Aquaman has to really prove his worth when the League becomes evil or mind controlled and he calls upon his family (Mera, Garth, Kaldur and Tula) or Diana having to fight her friends and needing her Amazons or other demigods to counter them because even she isn't powerful enough to take them on her own. Those stories, IMO, would be better because it would a) remind us that each individual Leaguer has allies outside the team and b) it would still be better than one hero one upping the entire team.

[Blacksun]

It wasn't so bad, Batman barely got out of it alive.

So has Batman become a supervillain now? It's kind of crazy when you look at Bat's current stories. Gotham has been destroyed a couple of times now in five years. Batman has a whole roster of other supervillains that take up residency in Gotham. Yet Batman only plans ways to take out other superheroes. Did Bruce set up a disaster relief fund after Zero Year? Did Bruce ever come up with a plan for when Ra's unleashes the League of Assassins or for when Joker comes back to town? Batman can spend resources to collect red suns for some battle armor but he can't investigate Penguin's books to prove he's a corrupt mob boss. It's starting to sound like Batman wants all the criminals to wreak havok and prevent anyone else from interfering, so he can be a psychotic vigilante and live out his violent fantasies. He's the ultimate supervillain. He does nothing to actually prepare for or stop criminals before large scale damage is done but is well prepared to fight any superhero around. Then when all the damage has been done, he can swoop in and "save the day". Gotham is known as the most corrupt and dangerous city in the DCU despite being protected by the unstoppable Batgod. Maybe he really does have a god complex and the people of Gotham are his to toy with and indulge his fantasies.

you have to see the scale of things, JL going rogue is much bigger than gotham rogues to a world wide scale.

[Kandor Rising]

The biggest alpha male in comics always gets reduced to this. Its alright to tell a tale of an underdog, sure. But theres just a lack of caring for Superman.

Even Clarks persona has been quite... strange and not what it was. He even looks like hipster now.


Oh well I guess, nothing you can do.

They turned him into Superdouche. That's why they have him acting like a jerk and in a shallow relationship. Its like Metropolis Shore.

[manduck37]

It wasn't so bad, Batman barely got out of it alive.



you have to see the scale of things, JL going rogue is much bigger than gotham rogues to a world wide scale.

What indications are there that the JL would go rogue? All they've ever done is selflessly help people, even when they weren't popular. So why devote so much time to the most unlikely hypothetical situation when real criminals need to be stopped? Besides, someone like Ra's is a threat to the entire world. Where is the great contingency plan to stop Ra's?

Really though, i'm just having some fun with comic book logic. For some reason it's perfectly acceptable to assume Batman would have a plan to stop the JL if he needed to but not reasonable to assume he would have a plan to stop actual criminals. Only in comics. I was never a fan of heroes fighting heroes. I prefer heroes fight villains. That's one of the reasons I drifted away from Marvel. I don't care who would win in a fight of Thor vs. The Hulk. Seeing if Batman can take Superman isn't interesting to me. Just my personal preference. It just all struck me as very silly in light of what's been going on in Batman and Superman comics lately.

What I really found interesting though was Snyder's bit of meta commentary on the Batman/Superman showdown. In the last scene we have Batman say that in a fight between Batman and Superman, they both lose. It was a very interesting point and I couldn't help but connect it to the next movie. Seemed like a timely comment on the Superman/Batman conflict considering all the discussions about the DOJ. Kind of a commentary on their battles in the comics too.

[Nite-Wing]

If Batman ever goes evil its up to the JL(or maybe the batfam) to stop him like its up to him to stop the JL every time they step out of line.
I doubt you'll ever see an evil Batman(apart from Pak's stuff) again
Batman's will is pretty much incorruptible and his morals are beyond suspicion

[Cypher]

They turned him into Superdouche. That's why they have him acting like a jerk and in a shallow relationship. Its like Metropolis Shore.

Thats right, theyve resorted to X-Men drama for Superman.

Though I'm not sure whats the deal they have with him now on Action, but that was the route they were playing. I believe he didnt smile once or more 2 times in the Nu52 untill Jurgens had his run.

[Pinsir]

Sometimes I think the only thing worse than Batgod is Superman fans complaining about Batgod.

[Blacksun]

Thats right, theyve resorted to X-Men drama for Superman.

Though I'm not sure whats the deal they have with him now on Action, but that was the route they were playing. I believe he didnt smile once or more 2 times in the Nu52 untill Jurgens had his run.

I kind of liked the last issue of jurgens run, that's the superman/clark I want to see

[Blacksun]

What indications are there that the JL would go rogue? All they've ever done is selflessly help people, even when they weren't popular. So why devote so much time to the most unlikely hypothetical situation when real criminals need to be stopped? Besides, someone like Ra's is a threat to the entire world. Where is the great contingency plan to stop Ra's?

Really though, i'm just having some fun with comic book logic. For some reason it's perfectly acceptable to assume Batman would have a plan to stop the JL if he needed to but not reasonable to assume he would have a plan to stop actual criminals. Only in comics. I was never a fan of heroes fighting heroes. I prefer heroes fight villains. That's one of the reasons I drifted away from Marvel. I don't care who would win in a fight of Thor vs. The Hulk. Seeing if Batman can take Superman isn't interesting to me. Just my personal preference. It just all struck me as very silly in light of what's been going on in Batman and Superman comics lately.

What I really found interesting though was Snyder's bit of meta commentary on the Batman/Superman showdown. In the last scene we have Batman say that in a fight between Batman and Superman, they both lose. It was a very interesting point and I couldn't help but connect it to the next movie. Seemed like a timely comment on the Superman/Batman conflict considering all the discussions about the DOJ. Kind of a commentary on their battles in the comics too.

Yes, I understand he should have better plans to stop criminals like Ras or Hush. But we also see on eternal and endgame, that the villains are also VERY good on scheming. It isn't so simple. Against talia Batman formed the Batman INc, without the international team he would never stop Talia.

I have no interest on heroes fighting another heroes, and batman vs superman was so overdone in the past.

I liked the meta from snyder, everyone lose. there's more interesting things than see bat and supes fighting.

[Lokimaru]

So has Batman become a supervillain now? It's kind of crazy when you look at Bat's current stories. Gotham has been destroyed a couple of times now in five years. Batman has a whole roster of other supervillains that take up residency in Gotham. Yet Batman only plans ways to take out other superheroes. Did Bruce set up a disaster relief fund after Zero Year? Did Bruce ever come up with a plan for when Ra's unleashes the League of Assassins or for when Joker comes back to town? Batman can spend resources to collect red suns for some battle armor but he can't investigate Penguin's books to prove he's a corrupt mob boss. It's starting to sound like Batman wants all the criminals to wreak havok and prevent anyone else from interfering, so he can be a psychotic vigilante and live out his violent fantasies. He's the ultimate supervillain. He does nothing to actually prepare for or stop criminals before large scale damage is done but is well prepared to fight any superhero around. Then when all the damage has been done, he can swoop in and "save the day". Gotham is known as the most corrupt and dangerous city in the DCU despite being protected by the unstoppable Batgod. Maybe he really does have a god complex and the people of Gotham are his to toy with and indulge his fantasies.

Now I see why he was so bent out of shape about Superman taking over the world and declaring world peace in Injustice. No crime means no Batman and we can't have that.

[Kryptoniac]

Yes, I understand he should have better plans to stop criminals like Ras or Hush. But we also see on eternal and endgame, that the villains are also VERY good on scheming. It isn't so simple. Against talia Batman formed the Batman INc, without the international team he would never stop Talia.

I have no interest on heroes fighting another heroes, and batman vs superman was so overdone in the past.

I liked the meta from snyder, everyone lose. there's more interesting things than see bat and supes fighting.

All this proves that apparently everyone should have unflinching belief in Bats being able to be incorruptible while other heroes can be easily controlled..That is a very underwhelming appreciation of other heroes you have there..Plus Snyder sucks at writing Superman and i'd definitely dont want him to write WW or Flash henceforth

[D4BBT]

So has Batman become a supervillain now? It's kind of crazy when you look at Bat's current stories. Gotham has been destroyed a couple of times now in five years. Batman has a whole roster of other supervillains that take up residency in Gotham. Yet Batman only plans ways to take out other superheroes. Did Bruce set up a disaster relief fund after Zero Year? Did Bruce ever come up with a plan for when Ra's unleashes the League of Assassins or for when Joker comes back to town? Batman can spend resources to collect red suns for some battle armor but he can't investigate Penguin's books to prove he's a corrupt mob boss. It's starting to sound like Batman wants all the criminals to wreak havok and prevent anyone else from interfering, so he can be a psychotic vigilante and live out his violent fantasies. He's the ultimate supervillain. He does nothing to actually prepare for or stop criminals before large scale damage is done but is well prepared to fight any superhero around. Then when all the damage has been done, he can swoop in and "save the day". Gotham is known as the most corrupt and dangerous city in the DCU despite being protected by the unstoppable Batgod. Maybe he really does have a god complex and the people of Gotham are his to toy with and indulge his fantasies.

Wow!!! That was great. I never thought of him that way.

[Ascended]

Yeah, Im fed up with these fights too. Have been for a long, long time.

There's no good way for a Bats/Superman fight to go. Either Clark is dumbed down, powered down, and treated like a moron, while Batman gets written like a god (like here), or its not a fight at all and Batman ends up looking like a victim and Superman gets to look like a douche for beating up a defenseless human (like in Sacrifice).

It would be one thing if stories like this were very rare and only happened once in a while, and if the other League members got the same kind of treatment. But when was the last time we saw the Flash fight the League? Or Diana? Hell, if someone could write this sort of confrontation without making one character look bad just to prop up another, that would be something. I could buy Batman being able to get one on Superman if the situation was handled right. It just rarely, if ever, is.

For my money, the best two fights between them was in Justice League #2, where Clark beat the hell out of Bruce, Hal and Barry, and in Hush. The JL fight worked because, for once, all of Clark's abilities were written at peak and Batman was completely and utterly useless, as he should be. Clark can lift the planet and survive black holes. Batman's utility belt shouldnt have a tool to deal with that and Batman went in blind, without any special gear or preparation. Plus it was great to see Superman written like the alpha dog he is for a change. Hush gets a pass because Bruce came to Metropolis just to deal with Clark; he spent the entire confrontation running for his life, and in the end all he did was endanger Lois' life so Clark would snap out of the mind control on his own. It showcased Bruce's tenacity and Clark's raw power and force of will without either of them looking much the worse for wear. That's the only fight between them I dont mind really.

[jaybay]

I've mentioned this in the old forums and I will again.

The only way to stop the Batman vs Superman crap forever is to have Superman depowered and beat Batman in hand to hand combat.

Healthy Batman vs healthy depowered Superman.

There are tons of reasons why that could work especially given how low writers sink to hand the victory to Batman. (Kryptonite gum, red suns and laser reflectors?)

We end up then with, "Batman can't even beat Superman without his powers." from the common people. No more Miller antagonism, Clark is alpha, Batgod is scaled back to being human, potential stories more likely just regulate to them being friends, writers forced to be more creative, no more demeaning posturing, everyone is happy.

As it is now, Batman villains are now Justice League threats and those guys ended up being hospitalized.