Darth Vader vs Saruman

[Endless_Legend]

Probably closer to scorching ray or some such.

Getting overly technical in response to a joke completely ruins a joke. Thanks, Sheldon.

[big_adventure]

Gandalf's staff gets destroyed by the Witch King during the siege of Minas Tirith in the movies, but that didn't stop him from wizarding about as usual. Maybe the rules were different from him then, however, since he was again a being of living flame, and no longer trapped in that old Istari body.

I recall that earlier in the trilogy he took a branch and *made* himself a new staff, after he escaped Saruman's tower (while he was still The Grey). He was also able to speak to the butterfly without a staff.

I don't doubt that he can make a new staff - but he doesn't have time for that here if he loses the one he has. The butterfly thing took time, and, after all, it was only talking to a butterfly. And what "wizarding" did Gandalf do, exactly, after having his staff destroyed in the siege of Minas Tirath? He was flying around on an already summoned bird, but he wasn't shooting fireballs or anything out of his hands. What, exactly, was he doing that was so impressive it stops him from getting sliced to ribbons by a dude with a light saber? Or force choked? To say nothing of the fact that Gandalf's feats do not transfer to Saruman.

[Endless_Legend]

I was pointing out that Tolkien wizards still have some power even after they've lost their staffs.

But yeah, he doesn't have time to make a new one here. Without it, all he has is the power of his voice, which won't be enough to stop Vader from killing him. Assuming that he gets the staff out of his hand rather than Saruman getting the lightsaber out of his.

[big_adventure]

I was pointing out that Tolkien wizards still have some power even after they've lost their staffs.

But yeah, he doesn't have time to make a new one here. Without it, all he has is the power of his voice, which won't be enough to stop Vader from killing him. Assuming that he gets the staff out of his hand rather than Saruman getting the lightsaber out of his.

Sure - I wasn't necessarily voicing an opinion on the winner, just reminding that Saruman is more-or-less completely screwed if Vader can get the stick away from him, whereas Vader still has viable attack options without his pointy thing.

It's perhaps questionable who is quicker on TK. Vader wasn't Wally West with it in Empire, but Anakin (so, Vader with less training) was pretty quick with it in combat in Attack and Sith, and Vader was certainly quick as hell (relatively dominating Luke) with his saber, including casually stopping Luke's attempted kill-shot on Palpatine. Saruman wasn't really all that fast with it, either, of course - he and Gandalf, when they fought with TK, seemed to be following some kind of silly Irish Stand Off rules: "OK, your turn, then my turn," and he simply out-did Gandalf in that.

[Surtur]

Saruman flame strike starts at 2:55 from Return of the King.

So we suddenly count extended editions?

[Anarchist]

And why not?
it's not like they're non-canon (like for example, Shaak Ti's death in Episode 3 deleted scenes).

For me, counting Extended Scenes is like counting Tie-Ins to an event.

[Surtur]

I just didn't know if we did or did not.

[Powerboy]

One of Vader's best speed feats in the original trilogy was raising his hand and blocking the blaster fire with the Force. Since that's presumably energy, I don't see much difference to blocking a fireball. But if Extended versions of LoTR are in, then I'd think Vader's feats from the prequels are in since he had them in his history. It's just a name change from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader. He still has the feats.

[Shai-Hulud]

So we suddenly count extended editions?

Honestly, I can't even remember the differences. Ever since the extended came out, that's the only version I've watched.

But if Extended versions of LoTR are in, then I'd think Vader's feats from the prequels are in since he had them in his history. It's just a name change from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader. He still has the feats.

That might work in other, similar cases, but Anakin was unmaimed, and Vader needs a life support suit to even survive. Not entirely sure if all of Anakin's physical feats would transfer to the older, more damaged Vader. However, Anakin's mental, force-related telekinetic feats should definitely still apply.

[Cody]

I don't doubt that he can make a new staff - but he doesn't have time for that here if he loses the one he has. The butterfly thing took time, and, after all, it was only talking to a butterfly. And what "wizarding" did Gandalf do, exactly, after having his staff destroyed in the siege of Minas Tirath? He was flying around on an already summoned bird, but he wasn't shooting fireballs or anything out of his hands. What, exactly, was he doing that was so impressive it stops him from getting sliced to ribbons by a dude with a light saber? Or force choked? To say nothing of the fact that Gandalf's feats do not transfer to Saruman.

Do know that Gandalf had no problem dishing out lightning bolts to the Balrog without a staff. He instead used his sword as a focus. So taking their staff doesn't make them entirely helpless in the magical category.

[Iron_Twister]

Do know that Gandalf had no problem dishing out lightning bolts to the Balrog without a staff. He instead used his sword as a focus. So taking their staff doesn't make them entirely helpless in the magical category.

Hmm, decided to check it out, Gandalf called upon lightning to power his sword and dealt a fatal stab that takes out the Balrog. Impressive but as of now, I really can't see Saruman (who I haven't seen wield a sword) as much as a combative beast compared to Gandalf, maybe once the third Hobbit film comes out do we see how he fares in a fight.

[big_adventure]

Also, Gandalf's sword is freaking Glamdring. It's not like he used some ordinary weapon picked up at your local Sword Depot.

[Cody]

Also, Gandalf's sword is freaking Glamdring. It's not like he used some ordinary weapon picked up at your local Sword Depot.

Yea but aside from being made by first age Elves; what was so special about it? Sure it glows when Orcs are near(or is supposed to, I don't remember it doing that in the movies) but aside from that what magical properties would it have?

[Iron_Twister]

Yea but aside from being made by first age Elves; what was so special about it? Sure it glows when Orcs are near(or is supposed to, I don't remember it doing that in the movies) but aside from that what magical properties would it have?

Well, given that Gandalf and crew found the elven blades sitting for god knows how many years of disuse and are all still very much combat worthy (as Gandalf and Thorin showed) while orcs and goblins were pissing their pants seeing it in action does give the feeling that despite showing few magical properties by means of evil detecting and extraordinarily longevity while never losing it's edge in sharpness and durability...Those properties are quite enough for a guy like Gandalf.