Superman/Wonder Woman #13 Preview

[Blackest Knight]

Wow. I was looking forward to picking up SM/WW again (dropped it for Doomed). But, this? Is laughably bad what they were going for?

I get the whole 'contrasting approaches' thing (ie, protect the innocent vs stopping the bad guys). But it's so very hyper-simplistic; it's just poorly done.

Lecture mode Superman vs Lecture mode WW - Let the battle for idiotic supremacy begin!

I concur. Tomasi (whose favorite GL is Guy Gardner, the most one-dimensional GL ever created) writes hamfisted, action movie plots and dialogue as his bread & butter. But even I was stunned at how poorly written his WW was.

He wields action movie cliches such as overblown, scenery-chewing dialogue as shown here like a blunt instrument. There's no subtlety and no wit. His lines of dialogue for Diana are stiff, leaden and lack all self-restraint.

[Javier Velasco]

It is partially the art's fault. Mahnke's art is not particularly good at conveying any kind of softness or sensitivity. So he can't bring any additional shading to the dialogue. If you go back and read the Kelly/Mahnke JLA run, you will see a lot of the same thing occurring. A very sleek, direct, no frills approach to story telling. Which is fine for big adventure type storytelling, but you never get a feeling that the characters have anything going on in their minds beyond what they actually say.

[Blacksun]

I have posted what follows in the other forum, anyway, that's what I think:



Maybe she came off a bit worse than in JL's first arc, which I don't think was as bad as some other JL's arcs that followed, but anyway I think I'll wait to judge.
She certainly lost time, and so did Superman. Both of their plans were wrong, by the way. Like she noticed those monsters could fly, so a wall wouldn't serve to anything. On the other hand fighting without protecting the people was wrong as well...but it's not like she wanted them to die.

About her dialogue when talking about human's fragility. Well...that's why I said I'll wait to judge. Apparentely it doesn't seem very good. The way she speaks is not certainly good. I am not really a fan of her saying this, and I agree on the fact I don't think Azz's Wonder Woman, even if young, would have spoken on these terms, (even if we didn't really see the Wonder Woman of five years ago interacting with humans except briefly with Steve), though... What are exactly her terms?

In particular I am referring to this: "I've been doing my best to help some of you since my arrival, but how will you ever grow stronger if you need us every waking moment?".

Now...is this really wrong? From a certain point of view yes. It's difficult to believe that all people could end up being as strong as her, Superman, or even the Amazons. From another point of view, considering her words in a more general way (she is referring to her having helped different people since she was in Man's world, and not all the people were in the situation the man in that page was), and if you think it may indicate that she doesn't believe that help people is enough: that it is important also to empower them, then, well...that's different...

If her words here translate in her empowering people five years later in this book, then I'll accept much more this dialogue. If I look at that dialogue in this way, it remembers me of these, from Trinity:





And empowering the people she met (each in a different way) was what she did during Azz's run as well. Milan for example comes to my mind.

So, mmm...it may end up being good instead of bad as it apparentely seems, so I'll wait, especially since her characterization in Batman and Wonder Woman wasn't bad. She showed compassion to a 'monster' and gave him the chance to see the sun, so I think that Tomasi can write her well, and I hope he will in this book as well.

two complete different scenarios and dialogues. very hard what WW is saying in smww could turn in any empowering discourse

[BlackFeath]

two complete different scenarios and dialogues. very hard what WW is saying in smww could turn in any empowering discourse

Why not? Why did she mention "how will you ever grow stronger", then? That's what made me think that's what this could lead to, together with the fact that Wonder Woman has always been about empowering people. Of course it can't be applied to that man, but I think her words were meant to be more general. She talks also about other people she has helped, about the world she has come to know recently.

Of course I can't know if it will be the case. If it will, I'll like it. If it won't, then I'll agree with you. At the moment I'll just wait, because I think that there may be this other meaning in her words, and because that we like it or not, it seems that both Johns in JL and Tomasi here, like to write her as having good intentions but being so young and inexperienced that her words are easily misunderstood (I hope that 'five years later' Tomasi won't keep writing her like this like Johns has done in some JL arcs, though). A misunderstanding is what happened here. Of course WW wouldn't have let that man die (she said so in the last page of the preview), but Superman misunderstood her.

[Awonder]

If the characterizations continue like this I'll be the first to complain, but until then I'd recommend at least seeing the way these characters are written after the flashback. I'm still pretty confident this is just extreme examples to make a point later on about their positive growth as characters.

How can you be first when we already started the complaint department?

I'm just not a fan of "extreme examples" (poorly written) even if it's to try and so some sort of "growth." It's too simplistic and gimmicky. I totally get Superman being very protective, but he wants to build a wall to keep out parademons? What a super-brain-fart.

I'm not judging the whole book as I haven't read it. But the preview, especially one for a new creative team, should be a hook to get people to want to read more. This? Just makes me want to laugh at it. It's like a Madlibs of trope writing.

[Silvanus]

You forgot the cannon fodder centaurs. As far as Diana was concerned, living amongst god and mythological creatures, why wouldn't she assume that they are living creatures and not try and lop off their arms, such as in the first issue?

I think it's because she grew up among gods and mythological creatures that she would be likely to know which mythological creatures are "living" and which are "zombies." In fact, it's clearer to me how she knew the centaurs were inhuman monsters than it is how she knew the parademons were inhuman monsters--though the whole League seems to intuit that, so I can overlook it.

In any case, her first priority in WW #1 is protecting an innocent; I don't get any sense that she thinks Zola is soft and should be taking care of herself. She even shows humility there, when she calls herself "stupid" (if I remember right) for inadvertently letting Zola tag along when she teleports.; this contrasts with the "arrogance" that some of us see in this preview. Than again, yeah, a difference of five years' experience could explain it.

It seems worth noting, though, that in Wonder Woman 2, Diana seems to expect her mother to understand the principle that innocents should be protected. When Hippolyta says that Hera's rage against Zola will lead to tragedy, Diana asks, "Shouldn't I try to prevent that?" So she seems to think that the idea of protecting others is not particularly strange by Amazon standards.

[Lax]

Diana understands the value of life, hence why she said she was not going to let the man die. She was just waxing poetic. She is used to doing things at a different speed and in a different way. Like how she wants to cull the herd of enemies more than directly protect the masses. Different tactics, different priorities. She is thinking of winning the war, Superman is worried about the common man. Two different and valid perspectives.

Pretty much my thoughts.

She's acting like an amazon.

[borntohula]

I think she comes off as a bit arrogant (almost godly so) in those preview pages when almost musing about "weakness" to a wounded man instead of encouraging him. At least she said she wouldn't let him die.

Also good to see parademons! Every DC title needs some Jack Kirby in them

[Gaelforce]

I think what I found troubling about this preview is it took an exchange that had previously come across as almost a little fun and flirty and turned it into an insult.

"You're strong."

"I know."

I thought it was cute, and in the original I'm pretty sure Superman was smiling.

Now by adding "you're arrogant," it changes the entire tone of that exchange for me

[Darius]

I think what I found troubling about this preview is it took an exchange that had previously come across as almost a little fun and flirty and turned it into an insult.

"You're strong."

"I know."

I thought it was cute, and in the original I'm pretty sure Superman was smiling.

Now by adding "you're arrogant," it changes the entire tone of that exchange for me

Totally agree! They even translated that scene as very flirty in the animated movie. Not sure why this writer has chosen to make it tense. Perhaps he's attempting to build it into a sexually charged "I hate you, but now I love you" story?

[DochaDocha]

I think what I found troubling about this preview is it took an exchange that had previously come across as almost a little fun and flirty and turned it into an insult.

"You're strong."

"I know."

I thought it was cute, and in the original I'm pretty sure Superman was smiling.

Now by adding "you're arrogant," it changes the entire tone of that exchange for me

Yup. Don't care for this retcon. Oh well.

[Vanguard-01]

I think what I found troubling about this preview is it took an exchange that had previously come across as almost a little fun and flirty and turned it into an insult.

"You're strong."

"I know."

I thought it was cute, and in the original I'm pretty sure Superman was smiling.

Now by adding "you're arrogant," it changes the entire tone of that exchange for me

Dang it, Gael!

Somehow that flew right over my head. But now I have to face that fact unprepared!

It's true. I loved the "You're strong/I know" exchange. Now Tomasi just went and ruined it for me.

Oh well. Headcanon powers, activate! This scene never happened!

[Lax]

I think what I found troubling about this preview is it took an exchange that had previously come across as almost a little fun and flirty and turned it into an insult.

"You're strong."

"I know."

I thought it was cute, and in the original I'm pretty sure Superman was smiling.

Now by adding "you're arrogant," it changes the entire tone of that exchange for me

I think there's some wiggle room between not being modest and being arrogant. Is it true that she is strong? If so, then saying "I know." is an acknowledgement of the fact. Conversely, when Superman said "You're strong." is that flattery or an observation?

I always found the original scene pretty neutral in and of itself. Then once the relationship became firmly established fans look back and see it with different eyes. Justice League: War gave it romantic tension, SM/WW #13 is giving it a different kind of tension.

That being said, I do prefer the more romantic angle of JL: War because when the apocalypse is upon you quarreling amongst yourselves is kind of missing the point.

[hellacre]

Just posting what I am from the SM forum...

I am really curious to read what Tomasi is trying to do here. I always said for a while now I wanted to see these two when they were younger and just out in the world as heroes and how they would interact and I expected to see sparks fly...and I do not mean only making eyes at each other but a real interesting contrasting of personalities and growth. Seems we getting something like that and I hope we get a good pay off from this scene.

One could very well be attracted to someone but that should not mean they can't have different povs and these two would. Their upbringing couldn't be more different. It always use to be SM and WW would just get along the moment they meet. But really, would they? Right away? And it is good to see someone delve and try to peel away the layers. Because not many of the writers have. We have years of back-story no one has yet told. Even Azz imo did not show much of young Diana and her evolution and how and why she would become the woman she is at 23. What we did get to see actually supports Diana's warrior like attitude in battle especially one out of her teens. (She is only 18 here I believe) From the way Azz structured and motivated Amazon society they did stuff that shocked but for them was natural order of things. Diana did not get Hippolyta teaching her to love men did she? Yet we know she has compassion else she'd never save Steve and even then she said he was her "ticket" off the island. But Diana as we know her surely was not going to let the man die here... it's in her expression she would not. But that was Superman making that judgement on her indicating he does not know much about her.

Johns only established a moment and then jumped to 5 years later with a kiss. Tomasi is going to establish a dynamic is what I am seeing here between the young heroes. To establish a foundation and maybe build upwards why Clark would want to take the risk to kiss her and she would kiss him back 5 years later.

[Lax]

Just posting what I am from the SM forum...

I am really curious to read what Tomasi is trying to do here. I always said for a while now I wanted to see these two when they were younger and just out in the world as heroes and how they would interact and I expected to see sparks fly...and I do not mean only making eyes at each other but a real interesting contrasting of personalities and growth. Seems we getting something like that and I hope we get a good pay off from this scene.

One could very well be attracted to someone but that should not mean they can't have different povs and these two would. Their upbringing couldn't be more different. It always use to be SM and WW would just get along the moment they meet. But really, would they? Right away? And it is good to see someone delve and try to peel away the layers. Because not many of the writers have. We have years of back-story no one has yet told. Even Azz imo did not show much of young Diana and her evolution and how and why she would become the woman she is at 23. What we did get to see actually supports Diana's warrior like attitude in battle especially one out of her teens. (She is only 18 here I believe) From the way Azz structured and motivated Amazon society they did stuff that shocked but for them was natural order of things. Diana did not get Hippolyta teaching her to love men did she? Yet we know she has compassion else she'd never save Steve and even then she said he was her "ticket" off the island. But Diana as we know her surely was not going to let the man die here... it's in her expression she would not. But that was Superman making that judgement on her indicating he does not know much about her.

Johns only established a moment and then jumped to 5 years later with a kiss. Tomasi is going to establish a dynamic is what I am seeing here between the young heroes. To establish a foundation and maybe build upwards why Clark would want to take the risk to kiss her and she would kiss him back 5 years later.

I think the weight of their iconic status makes writers unwilling to have them look bad in any way.

I'm interested to see where this will go.