Thread Drift: Scarlet Witch's Sins and Redemption(?)

[People Of The Earth]

Well first, you can't spin that on her given she wasn't even conscious when it happened, she was possessed by an outside force.
And also, M-day certainly didn't destroy all of mutant culture, it crippled it at worse.
Unless you are suggesting that the depowered individuals who used to do art, style, litterature, music etc. gave up on absolutely all those activities ever since, and that every piece of culture they created EVER was destroyed, down to the very last one, by or because of M-Day.

Which I absolutely don't buy.

Calling it fool right now, that's the kind of over the top remark that have me wary of anti-Wanda speeches.

[ExodusCloak]

Well first, you can't spin that on her given she wasn't even conscious when it happened, she was possessed by an outside force.
And also, M-day certainly didn't destroy all of mutant culture, it crippled it at worse.
Unless you are suggesting that the depowered individuals who used to do art, style, litterature, music etc. gave up on absolutely all those activities ever since.
Which I absolutely don't buy.

She was possessed by an outside force that she sought out with Dr. Dooms help knowing full well of the consequences as she said as much that it was dark magic and knew that Dr. Strange would never help her channel it hence the reason why she went to Dr. Doom.
She heavily crippled it, as there were mutants who used their powers to create art, style, poetry (Bernard the Poet) etc...., you don't have to succeed in erradicating a culture for it to be a seriously heinous act, an attempt is enough and she did much more then just attempt. She succeeded in almost wiping it out. She dealt the most serious blow to mutants cannonically speaking (More then Cassandra Nova see the Day after M). Some of those mutants did give up. Some of those mutants killed themselves, some became targets by hunters because they were depowered (Generation M and the Morlocks) some stopped on poetry built a different culture in mutant town where depowered mutants went.

[People Of The Earth]

"She was possessed by an outside force that she sought out with Dr. Dooms help knowing full well of the consequences..."
Yeah, no.
She knew it was dark magic, she certainly didn't know it was gonna lead her to be possessed and even less know about this leading to Disassembled then M-Day.
If she had knew "full well of the consequences", M-Day wouldn't have happened, nor Disassembled given she wouldn't have accept to go through a process leading to the death of innocents that Doom offered her.
Also, like I said, mutant culture was crippled, not destroyed altogether, and it was more the result of a terrible side effect of M-Day than a deliberate attempt - an "heinous act" - to tear down said culture.
Some depowered mutants gave up what they used to do, and some didn't. To think they would all abandon just like that is surprising.
In fact, we even know that some mutants welcomed M-day as a blessing and welcomed it as an opportunity to start fresh (like Blob for example), pretty sure some depowered individuals became inspired in art and culture following M-day, either to loathe it or bless it or whatever.

[ExodusCloak]

"She was possessed by an outside force that she sought out with Dr. Dooms help knowing full well of the consequences..."
Yeah, no.
She knew it was dark magic, she certainly didn't know it was gonna lead her to be possessed and even less know about this leading to Disassembled then M-Day.
If she had knew "full well of the consequences", M-Day wouldn't have happened, nor Disassembled given she wouldn't have accept to go through a process leading to the death of innocents that Doom offered her.
Also, like I said, mutant culture was crippled, not destroyed altogether, and it was more the result of a terrible side effect of M-Day than a deliberate "heinous act" to tear down said culture.

Of course she knew full well of the consequences of using dark magic as she knew it was dark magic. Sorry that is not even a defence. She even mentions Doom was less conflicted about practicing the darker arts then Stephen Strange. She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway. That is knowing of the consequences. Not only did she say it but someone who is as practiced as Wanda in magic knows this all too well.

Secondly, she completely decimated a culture, and indirectly killed a bunch of people across realities. So yeah getting behind the wheel of a car drunk and knocking down a bunch of people is still a heinous act, ruining their lives is also quite heinous particularly when you knew that something very bad could happen.

Terrible side effect of M-Day

That is incorrect, it was a terrible side-effect of Wanda Maximoff seeking the power of this dark magic.

In fact, we even know that some mutants welcomed M-day as a blessing and welcomed it as an opportunity to start fresh (like Blob for example), pretty sure some depowered individuals became inspired in art and culture following M-day, either to loathe it or bless it or whatever.

It's not a fact. Blob tried to commit suicide in X-Men - Day After M. He then worked with the High Evolutionary to repower himself however the machine blew up after Magneto was repowered. At the moment he is powering himself with mutant growth hormone.

[People Of The Earth]

Of course she knew full well of the consequences of using dark magic as she knew it was dark magic. Sorry that is not even a defence. She even mentions Stephen Strange was less conflicted about practicing the darker arts then Doom. She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway. That is knowing of the consequences. Not only did she say it but someone who is as practiced as Wanda in magic knows this all too well.

No, that is not.

1. "She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway" is basically victim blaming here...
Her knowing that seeking Doom's help was risky DOESN'T EQUAL her knowing "full well of the consequences".
She had no clue what the Life Force was, what it was gonna do to her and what it was gonna do to her teammates and mutants in general.
Had she knew, she wouldn't have gone through the process Doom offered. Simple.
Of course, you can think the opposite but I know Wanda is just not that kind of character, like, at all. Never was.

2. Consequences: her being possessed leading to Disassembled/M-Day and aftermaths to both.
So again, she had no knowledge that :
a. she was gonna end-up possessed,
b. her being possessed would lead to Disassembled/M-Day.
Saying "she knew full well of the consequences" when she really didn't is just spreading a lie on her back.

Secondly, she completely decimated a culture, and indirectly killed a bunch of people across realities. So yeah getting behind the wheel of a car drunk and knocking down a bunch of people is still a heinous act, ruining their lives is also quite heinous particularly when you knew that something very bad could happen.

I already said that mutant culture was crippled by M-day, not destroyed altogether ?
You make it sounds like mutant culture was absolutely destroyed when the fact that hundreds of mutants lived on Utopia afterward flies in the face of that...Notwithstanding the depowered mutants that could have been inspired by M-day to perpetuate said culture or create new things altogether...We know parts of mutantkind actually welcomed M-day as a blessing, so why not ? How many pieces of art or cultural events are created to remember a significant event in the life of a people, a group or a community ? Some depowered mutants reacting this way to M-day is entirely possible too.
Also, the drunk driver example is a false equivalent, as in it's not a person possessed and unconscious driving said car and hitting people all the while doing it...
A more decent analogy would be a sleepwalker driving a car and hitting people during one of his or her episode of sleepwalking...
Your example is totally valid for another set of characters though.

That is incorrect, it was a terrible side-effect of Wanda Maximoff seeking the power of this dark magic.

Yeah ok, with that kind of reasoning I can spin this on Janet if I want so no thank you, I stick by what I said: it was a terrible side-effect of M-day and more specifically the spell ushered that day.

[ExodusCloak]

No, that is not.

1. "She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway." is basically victim blaming here.
Her knowing that seeking Doom's help was risky DOESN'T EQUAL her knowing "full well of the consequences".
She had no clue what the Life Force was, what it was gonna do to her and what it was gonna do to her teammates and mutants in general.
Had she knew, she wouldn't have gone through the process Doom offered. Simple.
Of course, you can think the opposite but I know Wanda is just not that kind of character, like, at all. Never was.

2. Consequences: Disassembled/M-Day and aftermaths to both.
She had no idea that :
a. she was gonna end-up possessed
b. her being possessed would lead to DisassembledM-Day.
Saying "she knew full well of the consequences" when she really didn't is just spreading a lie on her back.

Blaming the victim she's not the victim.
Wrong, she knew what the life force was, she's used it before. Hence the reference to her being a nexus being. She's tapped into it before. If you know Wanda you'd know that story where she used it.

She knew it was a bad idea, it was dark magic she knew what the life force was. She still went ahead with it.

I already said that mutant culture was crippled by M-day, not destroyed altogether ? You make it sounds like mutant culture was absolutely destroyed when the fact that hundreds of mutants living on Utopia flies in the face of that...Notwithstanding the depowered mutants that could have been inspired by M-day to perpetuate said culture or create new things altogether.
Also, the drunk driver example is a false equivalent, as in it's not a person possessed and unconscious driving said car and hitting people all the while doing it.
A more decent analogy would be a sleepwalker driving a car and hitting people during one of his or her episode...
It's a totally valid example for another set of characters though.

LOL, oh I killed of some of them, I chopped out their hands and ears and eyes...some of them are still alive. They might be able to paint or sing etc...You realise that even an attempt to destroy a culture falls under that label genocide right? And Wanda did much more then just a failed attempt. She brought them down to 200 mutants. From millions on 616 Earth, lets not get into all those in other realities shall we?

Oh and definitely not. Sleep driving? Em...Wanda sought out that dark power knowing something bad could happen. Just like someone who drank booze and got behind the wheel out of car knew something bad could happen. There is absolutely no way around that. And you love to use that word spin. There's absolutely no way you can spin the fact that she made the decision to seek out that power. It's canon. Until it's retconned you are stuck. Childrens crusade IMO made her look much worse then the original. At least in the original it was something that couldn't be helped. In that case it would be your sleeping walking analogy. As that is an inherent problem.

Yeah ok, with that kind of reasoning I can spin this on Janet if I want so no thank you, I stick by what I said: it was a terrible side-effect of M-day and more specifically the spell ushured that day.

M-day just happened by itself spontaneously. Yeaaah, right...sure. If you're just going to list out the same thing, without even providing evidence then I'm not going to engage you anymore. You haven't provided a shred of evidence to support your views. It fact a lot of what you stated is contradited on panel in Childrens Crusade, House of M- Day after, Generation M. I'm not trying to convince you but I'm not going to engage in debate with someone just copying and pasting the same thing over and over.

[Iron Maiden]

Of course she knew full well of the consequences of using dark magic as she knew it was dark magic. Sorry that is not even a defence. She even mentions Stephen Strange was less conflicted about practicing the darker arts then Doom. She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway. That is knowing of the consequences. Not only did she say it but someone who is as practiced as Wanda in magic knows this all too well.

Secondly, she completely decimated a culture, and indirectly killed a bunch of people across realities. So yeah getting behind the wheel of a car drunk and knocking down a bunch of people is still a heinous act, ruining their lives is also quite heinous particularly when you knew that something very bad could happen.



That is incorrect, it was a terrible side-effect of Wanda Maximoff seeking the power of this dark magic.



It's not a fact. Blob tried to commit suicide in X-Men - Day After M. He then worked with the High Evolutionary to repower himself however the machine blew up after Magneto was repowered. At the moment he is powering himself with mutant growth hormone.

This is why I abandoned the X-titles a long time ago. The writers like to stay in the rut of making the mutants victims and this is the extremes (the supposed effect on mutants in the mutiverse) they go to perpetuate that. And yeah, this is someone who also wearies of the repeated attempts to make Ben Grimm human or at least control his transformation. At least Claremont used to have variety in his storytelling. Sure, he never forgot that there is prejudice against mutants in his storytelling but you also had stories with the Brood and the Dark Phoenix saga. I still maintain that Joe Q Public would not be informed enough to know the difference between a mutant and the Thing. If they had some of those ubiquitous online polls in the MU, I would think that the polls would overwhelmingly pick Ben Grimm over Kitty Pryde as to who they would fear on first sight.

Time and again Tom Brevoort has been asked about the effects of House of M and he has stated that there were very very, few mutants were killed. He even had no knowledge of the obscure story where there is a panel showing someone is talking with Doctor Strange and the multiverse effect is mentioned. IMO this shows the editorial divisions in Marvel need to get their houses in order. Why does a writer on the X-titles get to beat down a character or vice versa with MU writers? The same thing was done with the torpedoing the Black Panther marriage. Maybe Marvel editorial needs to get all of their writers on board with the way things are being played out elsewhere. But I think it's kind of childish to hold some grudge against a character who is just a puppet on strings, acting on the whims of various writers.

No one had any clue about this Life Force power before and why the scope has been increased to the multiverse effect is just a lame plot device IMO. Besides, shouldn't your ire be focused at Doom instead?

[asiea]

No, that is not.

1. "She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway" is basically victim blaming here...
Her knowing that seeking Doom's help was risky DOESN'T EQUAL her knowing "full well of the consequences".
She had no clue what the Life Force was, what it was gonna do to her and what it was gonna do to her teammates and mutants in general.
Had she knew, she wouldn't have gone through the process Doom offered. Simple.
Of course, you can think the opposite but I know Wanda is just not that kind of character, like, at all. Never was.

2. Consequences: her being possessed leading to Disassembled/M-Day and aftermaths to both.
So again, she had no knowledge that :
a. she was gonna end-up possessed,
b. her being possessed would lead to Disassembled/M-Day.
Saying "she knew full well of the consequences" when she really didn't is just spreading a lie on her back.



I already said that mutant culture was crippled by M-day, not destroyed altogether ?
You make it sounds like mutant culture was absolutely destroyed when the fact that hundreds of mutants lived on Utopia afterward flies in the face of that...Notwithstanding the depowered mutants that could have been inspired by M-day to perpetuate said culture or create new things altogether...We know parts of mutantkind actually welcomed M-day as a blessing, so why not ? How many pieces of art or cultural events are created to remember a significant event in the life of a people, a group or a community ? Some depowered mutants reacting this way to M-day is entirely possible too.
Also, the drunk driver example is a false equivalent, as in it's not a person possessed and unconscious driving said car and hitting people all the while doing it...
A more decent analogy would be a sleepwalker driving a car and hitting people during one of his or her episode of sleepwalking...
Your example is totally valid for another set of characters though.



Yeah ok, with that kind of reasoning I can spin this on Janet if I want so no thank you, I stick by what I said: it was a terrible side-effect of M-day and more specifically the spell ushered that day.

Just read No More Humans this week and Beast says that Scarlett Witch was responsible for genocide.
She decimated a species. She brought their population level down to 10%, and left them with no way to procreate. No More Mutants.What about those who were using their abilities, like flying when their gene turned off?

Having their X-Gene turned of did not miraculously make them normal humans, either. For instance, Blob was still morbidly obese. He just did not have the benefits that came with being a mutant that would allow him to handle such a large body.

It is a fair accusation as I see it.

[ExodusCloak]

This is why I abandoned the X-titles a long time ago. The writers like to stay in the rut of making the mutants victims and this is the extremes (the supposed effect on mutants in the mutiverse) they go to perpetuate that. And yeah, this is someone who also wearies of the repeated attempts to make Ben Grimm human or at least control his transformation. At least Claremont used to have variety in his storytelling. Sure, he never forgot that there is prejudice against mutants in his storytelling but you also had stories with the Brood and the Dark Phoenix saga. I still maintain that Joe Q Public would not be informed enough to know the difference between a mutant and the Thing. If they had some of those ubiquitous online polls in the MU, I would think that the polls would overwhelmingly pick Ben Grimm over Kitty Pryde as to who they would fear on first sight.

Time and again Tom Brevoort has been asked about the effects of House of M and he has stated that there were very very, few mutants were killed. He even had no knowledge of the obscure story where there is a panel showing someone is talking with Doctor Strange and the multiverse effect is mentioned. IMO this shows the editorial divisions in Marvel need to get their houses in order. Why does a writer on the X-titles get to beat down a character or vice versa with MU writers? The same thing was done with the torpedoing the Black Panther marriage. Maybe Marvel editorial needs to get all of their writers on board with the way things are being played out elsewhere. But I think it's kind of childish to hold some grudge against a character who is just a puppet on strings, acting on the whims of various writers.

No one had any clue about this Life Force power before and why the scope has been increased to the multiverse effect is just a lame plot device IMO. Besides, shouldn't your ire be focused at Doom instead?

This is exactly it, I think Marvel never realized how big a mess the HoM situation was. The Avengers writers kind of left the story there and then, while the X-writers picked it up, then they swapped it back to the Avengers writers and they realized that "Oh crap all this happened...how are we going to redeem Wanda". And they started trying to say X and Y didn't happen. However, it became impossible to say X and Y didn't happen because of Hope Summers. The X-universe had to make the situation was irreversible so they tried everything to reverse it and failed. Only making Wanda look even worse.

That said there was a redemption storyline there. I think Mike Carey would have done an excellent job because he was building to something in Endangered Species. Wanda's powers driving her crazy would have been a poignant story then her actively seeking out the power.

My personal opinion on Doom is this:
Wanda wanted help, he helped her access the dark magic yes so perhaps he should have some of the blame for that. But he's a villain and doesn't claim any moral high ground. He also owned up to his part. Wanda has not, not in Remenders run. Nor has she been involved in trying to make up for the lives she destroyed e.g. aiding the depowered mutants and trying to come to terms with her part in the decimation. That should have been the first story after her return.

Furthermore, Dooms plan if it was even a plan backfired. In HoM he ended up as one of Magnetos lackeys. I somehow doubt he planned that.

BTW I think Wanda's future in the X-verse is that while it was a terrible act there's a lot of story potential there . As a character I kind of like Wanda more after decimation, not just as a hero but as a hero on one half as the marvel universe and a monster on the other half. I think the act was heinous but we need characters in comics that are interesting and I think committing that act sorta made her the number 1 X-Villian. Like the Hank Pym thing I don't see it ever disappearing.

[Star_Jammer]

She was possessed by an outside force that she sought out with Dr. Dooms help knowing full well of the consequences as she said as much that it was dark magic and knew that Dr. Strange would never help her channel it hence the reason why she went to Dr. Doom.
She heavily crippled it, as there were mutants who used their powers to create art, style, poetry (Bernard the Poet) etc...., you don't have to succeed in erradicating a culture for it to be a seriously heinous act, an attempt is enough and she did much more then just attempt. She succeeded in almost wiping it out. She dealt the most serious blow to mutants cannonically speaking (More then Cassandra Nova see the Day after M). Some of those mutants did give up. Some of those mutants killed themselves, some became targets by hunters because they were depowered (Generation M and the Morlocks) some stopped on poetry built a different culture in mutant town where depowered mutants went.

Which is never something she should have never done anyway. Wanda had already accepted that she had lost her children. All of a sudden she's written as not knowing, and Janet's "woopsie" tips her over the edge? Puh-lease.

[Sea Hound]

BTW I think Wanda's future in the X-verse is that while it was a terrible act there's a lot of story potential there . As a character I kind of like Wanda more after decimation, not just as a hero but as a hero on one half as the marvel universe and a monster on the other half. I think the act was heinous but we need characters in comics that are interesting and I think committing that act sorta made her the number 1 X-Villian. Like the Hank Pym thing I don't see it ever disappearing.

Disappearing? Never. House of M is genuinely one of the biggest stories Marvel has put out in terms of lasting effects.

Since children's crusade set the precedent for Wanda being blamelessly manipulated by super villains for her awesome power, that's been pretty much the theme for her use.

Remender's run has had her: kidnapped by a super villain so he can use her powers and rape her. She's controlled for a while, then escapes. Next she's kidnapped by supervillains who want to control and use her power. She avoids that, but ends up using her power to do exactly what the villains want. Then the first villain controls her for a while, intending to use her powers again before she's rescued. She casts a spell which goes horribly wrong. Either that's her fault, or she's been used by a third villain for her stupendous power again, we don't know yet.

Honestly, I think if the writers hadn't tried to make her blameless via a so far unexplained manipulation by Doom, and gone with the " your powers have made you insane, runs in the family deal with it" her story arc would have been much better. At the moment she's looking like Marvel's most disempowered character.

[Star_Jammer]

Disappearing? Never. House of M is genuinely one of the biggest stories Marvel has put out in terms of lasting effects.

Since children's crusade set the precedent for Wanda being blamelessly manipulated by super villains for her awesome power, that's been pretty much the theme for her use.

Remender's run has had her: kidnapped by a super villain so he can use her powers and rape her. She's controlled for a while, then escapes. Next she's kidnapped by supervillains who want to control and use her power. She avoids that, but ends up using her power to do exactly what the villains want. Then the first villain controls her for a while, intending to use her powers again before she's rescued. She casts a spell which goes horribly wrong. Either that's her fault, or she's been used by a third villain for her stupendous power again, we don't know yet.

Honestly, I think if the writers hadn't tried to make her blameless via a so far unexplained manipulation by Doom, and gone with the " your powers have made you insane, runs in the family deal with it" her story arc would have been much better. At the moment she's looking like Marvel's most disempowered character.

Uh...no, before that.

Which just affirms my theory that maaaaaaaaaaaaaaany Wanda haters have never known the character pre-Decimation/HoM, and aren't really reading into her whole story and why Decimation/HoM makes to freaking sense.

[Sea Hound]

Uh...no, before that.

Which just affirms my theory that maaaaaaaaaaaaaaany Wanda haters have never known the character pre-Decimation/HoM, and aren't really reading into her whole story and why Decimation/HoM makes to freaking sense.

She was kind of manipulated in Darker than Scarlet, admittedly. You can add that one if you like. But it's really only since Decimation/HoM/CC that she's been portrayed as having the incredible potential levels of reality altering powers that has the villains queuing to use her.

[Star_Jammer]

She was kind of manipulated in Darker than Scarlet, admittedly. You can add that one if you like. But it's really only since Decimation/HoM/CC that she's been portrayed as having the incredible potential levels of reality altering powers that has the villains queuing to use her.

Eh, still no. Read Busiek's run on Avengers.

Again, Wanda haters.

[Sea Hound]

Eh, still no. Read Busiek's run on Avengers.

Again, Wanda haters.

I don't particularly hate her. I don't like Remender's take on her at all, but I could say that about at least 50% of his team. I can't see that there's any question that there's a recurrent theme Remender has got going for Wanda is that she is hunted by villains with the intent of using her as a tool. Read his run.

There's before and after HoM for Wanda. It's a watershed moment for both the character and the fans. It can't be ignored.