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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Hound View Post
    I don't particularly hate her. I don't like Remender's take on her at all, but I could say that about at least 50% of his team. I can't see that there's any question that there's a recurrent theme Remender has got going for Wanda is that she is hunted by villains with the intent of using her as a tool. Read his run.

    There's before and after HoM for Wanda. It's a watershed moment for both the character and the fans. It can't be ignored.
    I was never questioning your view on Remender's run; I was pointing out that it's not an "as recent as Children's Crusade" development which, again, leads to my other point in that a LOT of people that dislike Wanda...don't even know her history beyond Decimation/HoM.

    It's like the people hating on Cyclops because of the Dark Phoenix thing, without knowing aaaaaaaaaanything about Scott that led up to that moment.
    Last edited by Star_Jammer; 11-15-2014 at 10:58 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Eh, still no. Read Busiek's run on Avengers.

    Again, Wanda haters.
    That was different. Morgan Le Fey said Wanda's power could "warp reality" but only in the very limited sense that it could change probability. She needed Wanda because her power made it possible for Morgan to use the Twilight Sword - but it was the sword, not Wanda, that had the incredible world-altering power.

    Before HoM/Disassembled, the only story that ever suggested Wanda might have potential to create a new reality with a wish was... you guessed it... Darker Than Scarlet. Evil Wanda says briefly that she was able to bring Wonder Man back to life (again) by creating a new reality where he's alive. But this was never really followed up on because Byrne left so quickly; we didn't know how powerful Evil Wanda really was (everything else she did was more or less normal sorcery stuff). But Bendis, of course, loved the story so he decided "altering all of reality" was Wanda's power and always had been.

    I think the nonsense about Wanda being the most powerful being in the world has definitely hurt her character. Writers and fans think she's overpowered when she isn't. But I don't think the Doom retcon made much difference. At least it gave an explanation of why she was omnipotent in HoM and isn't now.

    And in slight defense of Remender, it is true that Wanda does have a history of being used or manipulated by people who want to use her powers for their own ends - Arkon, Chthon, the Sentinels who wanted to use her to sterilize humanity, Morgan, Immortus. So while he definitely portrays her too much as a tool of powerful men, it's not out of keeping with her pre-HoM history at all.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    That was different. Morgan Le Fey said Wanda's power could "warp reality" but only in the very limited sense that it could change probability. She needed Wanda because her power made it possible for Morgan to use the Twilight Sword - but it was the sword, not Wanda, that had the incredible world-altering power.

    Before HoM/Disassembled, the only story that ever suggested Wanda might have potential to create a new reality with a wish was... you guessed it... Darker Than Scarlet. Evil Wanda says briefly that she was able to bring Wonder Man back to life (again) by creating a new reality where he's alive. But this was never really followed up on because Byrne left so quickly; we didn't know how powerful Evil Wanda really was (everything else she did was more or less normal sorcery stuff). But Bendis, of course, loved the story so he decided "altering all of reality" was Wanda's power and always had been.

    I think the nonsense about Wanda being the most powerful being in the world has definitely hurt her character. Writers and fans think she's overpowered when she isn't. But I don't think the Doom retcon made much difference. At least it gave an explanation of why she was omnipotent in HoM and isn't now.

    And in slight defense of Remender, it is true that Wanda does have a history of being used or manipulated by people who want to use her powers for their own ends - Arkon, Chthon, the Sentinels who wanted to use her to sterilize humanity, Morgan, Immortus. So while he definitely portrays her too much as a tool of powerful men, it's not out of keeping with her pre-HoM history at all.
    To the bolded; true, but the point was that a villain was using Wanda for her power (however small part Wanda's power played vs., in this case, the Twilight Sword).

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    No, that is not.

    1. "She knew what she was getting into. She knew something very bad could happen, but she went for it anyway" is basically victim blaming here...
    Her knowing that seeking Doom's help was risky DOESN'T EQUAL her knowing "full well of the consequences".
    She had no clue what the Life Force was, what it was gonna do to her and what it was gonna do to her teammates and mutants in general.
    Had she knew, she wouldn't have gone through the process Doom offered. Simple.
    Of course, you can think the opposite but I know Wanda is just not that kind of character, like, at all. Never was.

    2. Consequences: her being possessed leading to Disassembled/M-Day and aftermaths to both.
    So again, she had no knowledge that :
    a. she was gonna end-up possessed,
    b. her being possessed would lead to Disassembled/M-Day.
    Saying "she knew full well of the consequences" when she really didn't is just spreading a lie on her back.



    I already said that mutant culture was crippled by M-day, not destroyed altogether ?
    You make it sounds like mutant culture was absolutely destroyed when the fact that hundreds of mutants lived on Utopia afterward flies in the face of that...Notwithstanding the depowered mutants that could have been inspired by M-day to perpetuate said culture or create new things altogether...We know parts of mutantkind actually welcomed M-day as a blessing, so why not ? How many pieces of art or cultural events are created to remember a significant event in the life of a people, a group or a community ? Some depowered mutants reacting this way to M-day is entirely possible too.
    Also, the drunk driver example is a false equivalent, as in it's not a person possessed and unconscious driving said car and hitting people all the while doing it...
    A more decent analogy would be a sleepwalker driving a car and hitting people during one of his or her episode of sleepwalking...
    Your example is totally valid for another set of characters though.



    Yeah ok, with that kind of reasoning I can spin this on Janet if I want so no thank you, I stick by what I said: it was a terrible side-effect of M-day and more specifically the spell ushered that day.
    Umm, a culture doesn't have to be completely destroyed for it to be genocide. Hitler didn't succeed in killing ALL of the Jews or the Gypsy's, but the Holocaust was still definitely genocide. Because of her, the mutant population went from being in the millions, to less than 200. And some of those depowered mutants definitely died or were crippled as a result of losing their powers. Oh and she went to Doctor Doom for help, freaking Doctor Doom. The man will plot and scheme just because he's bored sometimes. Going to him and NOT expecting something bad to happen was just monumentally stupid on her part.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Blaming the victim she's not the victim.
    She was possessed by an outside force who caused untold destruction and death with Disassembled and M-day all the while possessing, she is also a victim here, the first one among a list of many.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Wrong, she knew what the life force was, she's used it before. Hence the reference to her being a nexus being. She's tapped into it before. If you know Wanda you'd know that story where she used it.She knew it was a bad idea, it was dark magic she knew what the life force was. She still went ahead with it.
    Again, how is that equal to her knowing she was gonna be possessed, leading to Disassembled/HoM ? What she's tapped into before was either Chaos Magic, or other magical power sources, when did she ever encounter the LF before the CC reveal to tap into it ?
    Contrary to what you are supporting, "She knew the consequences full well" is straight up fallacy.
    The power displayed by Wanda during Bendis tenure were a massive retcon of what they used to be at the time, and we are talking about the writer who had Strange said "there was no such thing as Chaos magic", he of all people, to folks who actually faced Chton several times in the past...Mmh-yeah, ok.
    You can buy that if you want, I really don't have to however.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    LOL, oh I killed of some of them, I chopped out their hands and ears and eyes...some of them are still alive. They might be able to paint or sing etc...You realise that even an attempt to destroy a culture falls under that label genocide right? And Wanda did much more then just a failed attempt. She brought them down to 200 mutants. From millions on 616 Earth, lets not get into all those in other realities shall we?
    A. No one questioned whether or not mutants were depowered during M-Day, I certainly didn't at least. Why you feel the need to react as if I did question that is quite off-putting tbh.

    B. What I did say however is that mutant culture wasn't destroyed that day, it was crippled.
    First, because not all mutants that were depowered would have abandonned what they used to do altogether following M-Day, it's ridiculous to believe such a thing. Unless you have the actual issue saying the contrary.
    Second, because even if they stopped everything after M-Day, because they couldn't or wouldn't do anything anymore, all the previous creations of mutantkind would still be there, existing. Unless you have the actual issue showing every last one of said creations being destroyed.
    Lastly, because culture is not limited to art anyway. Even if by any stretch all mutants and depowered mutants did drop the ball with Art and even if every single piece of their culture ever created had been destroyed following M-day, the simple fact that hundreds of them were gathered on Utopia to live there together flies in the face of mutant culture disappearing with M-Day. The same can be said about the depowered mutants who gathered in Akkaba city.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Oh and definitely not. Sleep driving? Em...Wanda sought out that dark power knowing something bad could happen. Just like someone who drank booze and got behind the wheel out of car knew something bad could happen. There is absolutely no way around that.
    Wanda was possessed the moment the Life Force bonded with her and she was unconscious the whole time of the possession.
    A drunk driver has to be conscious to actually take and drive a car, it's not the same at all...
    Really.
    It seems pretty necessary to me that the person is conscious to actually do that.
    Don't know in what circumstances you have seen drunk people completely unconscious actually taking and driving their cars...while still being unconscious.
    It makes what they might have wanted to do with said cars entirely irrelevant btw.
    Can't be clearer than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    And you love to use that word spin. There's absolutely no way you can spin the fact that she made the decision to seek out that power. It's canon. Until it's retconned you are stuck. Childrens crusade IMO made her look much worse then the original. At least in the original it was something that couldn't be helped. In that case it would be your sleeping walking analogy. As that is an inherent problem.
    Again, I never made the argument that she didn't seek Doom's help, that's you reacting over something I didn't actually said.
    What I did argue however is that her doing such a thing doesn't equal to her knowing what the consequences would be down the line.
    Which was what you were accusing her of, "knowing full well what the consequences were".
    Had she knew she'd end-up possessed, we wouldn't be arguing about this topic right now, because, Disassembled and HoM wouldn't have happened - or at least, not with her as a proxy, given she wouldn't have gone through the process Doom was offering.

    Also, the Bendis version had her completely snapping, it's nowhere close to an analogy to sleepwalk mind you.
    That's precisely why some of the people who didn't read CC or actually did read it but decided to ignore it anyway regularly refer her as being "crazy", "insane" and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    M-day just happened by itself spontaneously. Yeaaah, right...sure. If you're just going to list out the same thing, without even providing evidence then I'm not going to engage you anymore. You haven't provided a shred of evidence to support your views. It fact a lot of what you stated is contradited on panel in Childrens Crusade, House of M- Day after, Generation M. I'm not trying to convince you but I'm not going to engage in debate with someone just copying and pasting the same thing over and over.
    It's funny you would say that, because I could say to you the exact same thing... Also, I keep repeating things on some of your points because you keep saying stuffs that are factually wrong, or inaccurate.
    Or reacting to arguments I actually wasn't making in the first place... If that's how you're taking it though, well sure, feel free to disengage then, no one is forcing you to answer my posts.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    She was possessed by an outside force who caused untold destruction and death with Disassembled and M-day all the while possessing, she is also a victim here, the first one among a list of many.



    Again, how is that equal to her knowing she was gonna be possessed, leading to Disassembled/HoM ? What she's tapped into before was either Chaos Magic, or other magical power sources, when did she ever encounter the LF before the CC reveal to tap into it ?
    Contrary to what you are supporting, "She knew the consequences full well" is straight up fallacy.
    The power displayed by Wanda during Bendis tenure were a massive retcon of what they used to be at the time, and we are talking about the writer who had Strange said "there was no such thing as Chaos magic", he of all people, to folks who actually faced Chton several times in the past...Mmh-yeah, ok.
    You can buy that if you want, I really don't have to however.



    A. No one questioned whether or not mutants were depowered during M-Day, I certainly didn't at least. Why you feel the need to react as if I did question that is quite off-putting tbh.

    B. What I did say however is that mutant culture wasn't destroyed that day, it was crippled.
    First, because not all mutants that were depowered would have abandonned what they used to do altogether following M-Day, it's ridiculous to believe such a thing. Unless you have the actual issue saying the contrary.
    Second, because even if they stopped everything after M-Day, because they couldn't or wouldn't do anything anymore, all the previous creations of mutantkind would still be there, existing. Unless you have the actual issue showing every last one of said creations being destroyed.
    Lastly, because culture is not limited to art anyway. Even if by any stretch all mutants and depowered mutants did drop the ball with Art and even if every single piece of their culture ever created had been destroyed following M-day, the simple fact that hundreds of them were gathered on Utopia to live there together flies in the face of mutant culture disappearing with M-Day. The same can be said about the depowered mutants who gathered in Akkaba city.



    Wanda was possessed the moment the Life Force bonded with her and she was unconscious the whole time of the possession.
    A drunk driver has to be conscious to actually take and drive a car, it's not the same at all...
    Really.
    It seems pretty necessary to me that the person is conscious to actually do that.
    Don't know in what circumstances you have seen drunk people completely unconscious actually taking and driving their cars...while still being unconscious.
    It makes what they might have wanted to do with said cars entirely irrelevant btw.
    Can't be clearer than that.



    Again, I never made the argument that she didn't seek Doom's help, that's you reacting over something I didn't actually said.
    What I did argue however is that her doing such a thing doesn't equal to her knowing what the consequences would be down the line.
    Which was what you were accusing her of, "knowing full well what the consequences were".
    Had she knew she'd end-up possessed, we wouldn't be arguing about this topic right now, because, Disassembled and HoM wouldn't have happened - or at least, not with her as a proxy, given she wouldn't have gone through the process Doom was offering.

    Also, the Bendis version had her completely snapping, it's nowhere close to an analogy to sleepwalk mind you.
    That's precisely why some of the people who didn't read CC or actually did read it but decided to ignore it anyway regularly refer her as being "crazy", "insane" and so on.



    It's funny you would say that, because I could say to you the exact same thing... Also, I keep repeating things on some of your points because you keep saying stuffs that are factually wrong, or inaccurate.
    Or reacting to arguments I actually wasn't making in the first place... If that's how you're taking it though, well sure, feel free to disengage then, no one is forcing you to answer my posts.
    we should not try excuse Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch) ordering a genocide in a fit of mental breakdown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asiea View Post
    we should not try excuse Wanda Maximoff (Scarlet Witch) ordering a genocide in a fit of mental breakdown.
    Oh, we most certainly should. Character assassination should always be excused, ignored, retconned and no-Prized. See also: The Crossing.

    Anyway, I agree with those who said Remender has done the character no favors, but he's done a lot of characters no favors. Right now he's interfering with his own book (Captain America) by making Sam Wilson a psycho fascist in this book.

    Also I agree that Children's Crusade could be a much better retcon - largely, I think because they didn't want to undo HoM, it's too successful and popular - but I don't know that "going to Doom" single-handedly makes her guilty. Lots of characters have worked with Doom, all the time. You'd think they'd know by now that he will double-cross them, but in-universe it's always Doom who gets the blame, not the characters for their stupidity in working with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Oh, we most certainly should. Character assassination should always be excused, ignored, retconned and no-Prized. See also: The Crossing.

    Anyway, I agree with those who said Remender has done the character no favors, but he's done a lot of characters no favors. Right now he's interfering with his own book (Captain America) by making Sam Wilson a psycho fascist in this book.

    Also I agree that Children's Crusade could be a much better retcon - largely, I think because they didn't want to undo HoM, it's too successful and popular - but I don't know that "going to Doom" single-handedly makes her guilty. Lots of characters have worked with Doom, all the time. You'd think they'd know by now that he will double-cross them, but in-universe it's always Doom who gets the blame, not the characters for their stupidity in working with him.
    It’s not a good excuse for it! You can’t take a huge mistake, make a bigger mistake and then say well it’s not my fault, he (the other writer) started it!
    AND She did it again and again ON AXIS 5

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by asiea View Post
    It’s not a good excuse for it! You can’t take a huge mistake, make a bigger mistake and then say well it’s not my fault, he (the other writer) started it!
    AND She did it again and again ON AXIS 5
    AXIS 5 is her working with Doom because she has no choice but to work with him to stop the Red Skull. I'm not claiming it's good writing or not using her as a lame plot device, but it doesn't fit the "she's a genocidal maniac who wants to hurt people" thing, more like the time she screwed up and accidentally gave Ultron a power boost. So AXIS, while stupid, fits her character history. House of M does not.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by asiea View Post
    It’s not a good excuse for it! You can’t take a huge mistake, make a bigger mistake and then say well it’s not my fault, he (the other writer) started it!
    AND She did it again and again ON AXIS 5
    Anything to deflect the blame off of Doom, huh?

    Also, why isn't Pietro lambasted as much for his role in what happened to mutants after M-day? I mean mutants actually blew up due to exposure to the terrigen gas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Anything to deflect the blame off of Doom, huh?

    Also, why isn't Pietro lambasted as much for his role in what happened to mutants after M-day? I mean mutants actually blew up due to exposure to the terrigen gas.
    I know he's to blame I'm not apologist

  12. #27
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    you can have sympathy for a villain’s tragic backstory and accept that as an explanation for their actions without using it to EXCUSE their actions. thats the difference between being a fan or sympathetic toward to villain and being a ~~~”villain apologist”~~~
    Last edited by asiea; 11-15-2014 at 03:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asiea View Post
    Just read No More Humans this week and Beast says that Scarlett Witch was responsible for genocide.
    She decimated a species. She brought their population level down to 10%, and left them with no way to procreate. No More Mutants.What about those who were using their abilities, like flying when their gene turned off?

    Having their X-Gene turned of did not miraculously make them normal humans, either. For instance, Blob was still morbidly obese. He just did not have the benefits that came with being a mutant that would allow him to handle such a large body.

    It is a fair accusation as I see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Umm, a culture doesn't have to be completely destroyed for it to be genocide. Hitler didn't succeed in killing ALL of the Jews or the Gypsy's, but the Holocaust was still definitely genocide. Because of her, the mutant population went from being in the millions, to less than 200. And some of those depowered mutants definitely died or were crippled as a result of losing their powers. Oh and she went to Doctor Doom for help, freaking Doctor Doom. The man will plot and scheme just because he's bored sometimes. Going to him and NOT expecting something bad to happen was just monumentally stupid on her part.
    Again, I never questioned whether or not M-day depowered mutants, I'm actually waiting for you to point where in my posts I said something like that or a "look, it didn't happen" moment ?
    It's annoying because Exodus made the same kind of remark than you did, when I really never argued that point.
    It's a fact that some mutants lived through M-day, how is saying that going against the notion that there was, indeed, a genocide of mutants ?
    Re-read my posts if necessary.
    I argued against the idea that mutant culture was ushered into complete oblivion, contrary to what Exodus was saying.
    It was crippled, but still existing, for some various reasons that I layed out a bit.
    Again, how is saying that going against the idea that M-day happened ?
    I just don't know how you can jump to the conclusion that I was saying "oh well, M-day didn't happen, there was no genocide" and whatnot.

    So please, if you could shed a light on what was your reasoning for answering me this exactly, it would be welcomed.
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    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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    Quote Originally Posted by asiea View Post
    you can have sympathy for a villain’s tragic backstory and accept that as an explanation for their actions without using it to EXCUSE their actions. thats the difference between being a fan or sympathetic toward to villain and being a ~~~”villain apologist”~~~
    I just don't think a hero who's written badly for a few pages is a villain. If the Red Skull suddenly became nice for no reason and saved all the puppies in the world, and then disappeared for a few years and came back as a villain again, I would probably just ignore the puppy-saving as part of his character. It takes more than a few pages to turn a bad guy good or a good guy bad.

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    Wanda is a tragic figure She's a villain in the story, that's the way she's written.

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