Thread Drift: Scarlet Witch's Sins and Redemption(?)

[asiea]

She's done a lot of terrible things to a lot of characters only for her own selfish benefit.

[gurkle]

Wanda is a tragic figure She's a villain in the story, that's the way she's written.

She's done a lot of terrible things to a lot of characters only for her own selfish benefit.

Only if you assume HoM was a) In character and b) Her fault. The comics have given us options to say it wasn't, and since nothing else in her character history justifies thinking of her as a villain (not even when she worked with Magneto, she wasn't even a bad guy then!), you can see why her fans just prefer to dismiss the thing.

Sam is currently doing terrible things in this book, but he's not himself. Wanda wasn't herself in HoM. Things characters do when they're "inverted" don't define them.

[TresDias]

She was possessed by an outside force who caused untold destruction and death with Disassembled and M-day all the while possessing, she is also a victim here, the first one among a list of many.

So drunk drivers who also die in the wrecks they cause are "the first victims" (of the real villain, I guess) and not just negligent idiots?

Again, how is that equal to her knowing she was gonna be possessed, leading to Disassembled/HoM ? What she's tapped into before was either Chaos Magic, or other magical power sources, when did she ever encounter the LF before the CC reveal to tap into it ?
Contrary to what you are supporting, "She knew the consequences full well" is straight up fallacy.

The only fallacy I'm seeing here is how you keep quoting ExodusCloak saying an approximation of "she knew the consequences full well" and throwing it back in their face rather than engaging in a good faith discussion.

You know full well (yes, I'm using that wording) that what EC meant is that Wanda knew she was taking a risk that could screw everyone over. Harping on that specific wording, you're attacking a straw man (Wanda could see into the future and knew "Disassembled," etc. would happen) that EC is not positing or defending -- and you know it. That's intellectually dishonest, and you need to stop.

One can like Wanda (I like Wanda) without pretending she's not a massive ****-up like her father, brother and sister.

[GenericUsername]

In canon she didn't do that directly because of her own benefit. She did seek out a way to get her children back. None of that makes sense because she had remembered her children long before this and came to terms with the loss. But she went to Doom, who had also helped out other heroes, he felt he could control this power (based on ego and an urge to become omnipotent), it backfired. The results were awful, they happened 10 years ago in fiction. They happened because of an editorial mandate.

Doom only became the villain after he revealed that he did all this on purpose. Before that, he seemed like he had the best of intentions of helping and it went horribly wrong. Disassembled, HoM, and Children's Crusade weren't handled in the best way. But what's on the page was never direct intent on mutants being depowered. They were just innocent bystanders. Same with people caught up in M-day.

Possession and manipulation have long been used in comics to make good characters do bad things, just to turn that around. It's what happened here. Only they haven't bothered to completely clean up the mess made.

What happened in AXIS was also indirect. At least for now. The intent was to invert Red Onslaught back to Xavier. It backfired as well. Maybe it's just that Wanda and Doom need better lessons in magic? Or maybe Marvel forgot about all their magic training in the past. Or that they are just plot devices in this story.

But I don't think they are for definite clear villains.

[asiea]

Only if you assume HoM was a) In character and b) Her fault. The comics have given us options to say it wasn't, and since nothing else in her character history justifies thinking of her as a villain (not even when she worked with Magneto, she wasn't even a bad guy then!), you can see why her fans just prefer to dismiss the thing.

Sam is currently doing terrible things in this book, but he's not himself. Wanda wasn't herself in HoM. Things characters do when they're "inverted" don't define them.

she worked with Magneto as a villian Scarlet Witch debuted, together with her brother, Quicksilver, as a part of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

[Mark]

Wanda is a tragic figure She's a villain in the story, that's the way she's written.

Wanda is basically Bendis's ultimate victim.

[GenericUsername]

One can like Wanda (I like Wanda) without pretending she's not a massive ****-up like her father, brother and sister.

The problem with that though is for many years she was the one with her head screwed on straight until she started to be written out of character. She's remained so ever-since. Like an alt earth version of Wanda (like Lore), that's just come to the 616 and stuck around.

[GenericUsername]

she worked with Magneto as a villian Scarlet Witch debuted, together with her brother, Quicksilver, as a part of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

Reluctant villain. Her and Pietro both were abused and held imprisonment by Mags when they wanted to break free. Which is why they had to hide out in Switzerland after the X-Men defeated Mags and they could make their break for it.

Stan Lee said they were always meant to be reluctant villains turned heroes.

[asiea]

In canon she didn't do that directly because of her own benefit. She did seek out a way to get her children back. None of that makes sense because she had remembered her children long before this and came to terms with the loss. But she went to Doom, who had also helped out other heroes, he felt he could control this power (based on ego and an urge to become omnipotent), it backfired. The results were awful, they happened 10 years ago in fiction. They happened because of an editorial mandate.

Doom only became the villain after he revealed that he did all this on purpose. Before that, he seemed like he had the best of intentions of helping and it went horribly wrong. Disassembled, HoM, and Children's Crusade weren't handled in the best way. But what's on the page was never direct intent on mutants being depowered. They were just innocent bystanders. Same with people caught up in M-day.

Possession and manipulation have long been used in comics to make good characters do bad things, just to turn that around. It's what happened here. Only they haven't bothered to completely clean up the mess made.

What happened in AXIS was also indirect. At least for now. The intent was to invert Red Onslaught back to Xavier. It backfired as well. Maybe it's just that Wanda and Doom need better lessons in magic? Or maybe Marvel forgot about all their magic training in the past. Or that they are just plot devices in this story.

But I don't think they are for definite clear villains.

She did seek out a way to get her children back only for her own selfish benefit.

[GenericUsername]

She did seek out a way to get her children back only for her own selfish benefit.

She missed her children. If she were as lucky as Sue to have Doom's help pan out for her, we wouldn't even be discussing this.

[Iron Maiden]

She missed her children. If she were as lucky as Sue to have Doom's help pan out for her, we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Excellent point. Maybe Wanda heard of the circumstances of Valeria's birth. Sue would have lost the child because Reed was held captive by the Hidden Ones and couldn't help her. Johnny went to the only other person nearby who could help and that was Doom who happened to be in his embassy. He turned him down at first until Johnny pleaded for his sister's life and Doom agreed. He was able to use magic and science to deliver the baby safely since Sue was experiencing as with Franklin. The cosmic ray effect that isthe source of their powers was making the delivery difficult. He does lay claim to her as Val's godfather and so far Sue and Reed haven't objected. She even stays with him in Latveria. So Wanda decided it was worth the risk if she made her case to him. Doom doesn't have as big a grudge against the Avengers as he would with the Fantastic Four.

[Mikekerr3]

This is why I abandoned the X-titles a long time ago. The writers like to stay in the rut of making the mutants victims and this is the extremes (the supposed effect on mutants in the mutiverse) they go to perpetuate that. And yeah, this is someone who also wearies of the repeated attempts to make Ben Grimm human or at least control his transformation. At least Claremont used to have variety in his storytelling. Sure, he never forgot that there is prejudice against mutants in his storytelling but you also had stories with the Brood and the Dark Phoenix saga. I still maintain that Joe Q Public would not be informed enough to know the difference between a mutant and the Thing. If they had some of those ubiquitous online polls in the MU, I would think that the polls would overwhelmingly pick Ben Grimm over Kitty Pryde as to who they would fear on first sight.

Time and again Tom Brevoort has been asked about the effects of House of M and he has stated that there were very very, few mutants were killed. He even had no knowledge of the obscure story where there is a panel showing someone is talking with Doctor Strange and the multiverse effect is mentioned. IMO this shows the editorial divisions in Marvel need to get their houses in order. Why does a writer on the X-titles get to beat down a character or vice versa with MU writers? The same thing was done with the torpedoing the Black Panther marriage. Maybe Marvel editorial needs to get all of their writers on board with the way things are being played out elsewhere. But I think it's kind of childish to hold some grudge against a character who is just a puppet on strings, acting on the whims of various writers.

No one had any clue about this Life Force power before and why the scope has been increased to the multiverse effect is just a lame plot device IMO. Besides, shouldn't your ire be focused at Doom instead?

Even in Books that Breevort edited like CC, there were mentions of large scale mutant deaths, try again.

What happens in the books matters what editors say is pretty much worthless becasue they apparently feel no obligation to tell the truth at all. when speaking to their customers

[Mikekerr3]

Wanda is a tragic figure She's a villain in the story, that's the way she's written.

What story since then hasd not made her more the villian. CC just dug the hole deeper and RR is digging the hole deeper with power tools


Is anyone actually going to try to redeem the character, at this point is it possible to do so?

[dragonmp93]

What story since then hasd not made her more the villian. CC just dug the hole deeper and RR is digging the hole deeper with power tools


Is anyone actually going to try to redeem the character, at this point is it possible to do so?

Well, if AXIS continues its awesome current course, then FOR ME, she can count as redeemed.

In that argument, Wanda was definitely correct. The X-Gene is a system for powers, it's not a culture. Two mutants could have absolutely nothing else in common. Rogue was upset, she admitted she was upset and she made up with Wanda later (and then they hugged). I think people are just being angry with Wanda for the sake of being angry, ignoring that by joining the Unity Team, it shows that she does actually care about unity. The best step for unity is to admit that Mutants are still humans and to not segregate. Which means over the past year, by saying that statement; Scarlet Witch has done more for Mutants than the X-Men did with their "revolution" and fighting each other instead of villains; making them even more disliked by the Marvel public. Let's look at the stories without a bias against a character from a story arc from ages ago. Down with mutant segregation! That's supposed to be Xavier's dream (though I wouldn't say he did it that well either, but that's another conversation).

I really needed something to laugh at today, thank you for cheering me up.

[XPac]

What story since then hasd not made her more the villian. CC just dug the hole deeper and RR is digging the hole deeper with power tools


Is anyone actually going to try to redeem the character, at this point is it possible to do so?

Sure it's possible. If Hal Jordan can be redeemed anyone can be. It's really just a matter of the writers at marvel deciding they're done milking this particular story and it's time to move on.