1. #33406
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Really, the comparison never made sense to begin with. You can't compare people of color, or in the case of the Bryan Singer films LGBT people, to people who can wipe out entire cities or in a few cases, all of humanity. Nor did it ever really make sense that this prejudice would exist in the Marvel universe.
    I think originally, the X-Men were supposed to be a metaphor for communism, rather than a metaphor for minorities or LGBT people, then Claremont came along and well, we all know the rest. What also didn't help is that very few X-Men were people of color with the notable exception of Storm...ugh. Kitty Pryde saying the N-Word three times and comparing it to the term "Mutie." What made it worse is that the X-men constantly sat around their mansion feeling sorry for themselves most of the time. Even though most of them could easily pass for human, maybe that's why other superheroes didn't like being around them.

    The metaphor also falls apart in universe as well, I mean really, what's the difference between Wolverine and Captain America, one was born with his powers and the other one got them from drugs? So being born with powers is somehow worse than getting them from some random accident or an experiment?
    Last edited by Overhazard; 03-13-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  2. #33407
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Really, the comparison never made sense to begin with. You can't compare people of color, or in the case of the Bryan Singer films LGBT people, to people who can wipe out entire cities or in a few cases, all of humanity. Nor did it ever really make sense that this prejudice would make sense in the Marvel universe.
    Yea I didn't grow up feeling the (late 80's) X-Men were any type of metaphor.

    I disagree with the idea that it didn't make sense in the Marvel Universe (616 specifically) cause A LOT supposedly does 'makes sense'. I mean what are we even saying, Secret Wars II starring The Beyonder did 'make sense'? When they put out the house ad for the mutant registration story line from like, I don't know I think I was in 6th grade, '87. It hit because maybe Morlocks didn't go to public school but there wasn't room for every mutant in America to stay over at Xavier's until they fuckin' grew up. Jean Gray was in the 6th grade once, as well as a whole host of over lower level mutants who didn't all have abilities you could see with the naked eye. Pre-teens and teenagers are immature, accidents happen. Accidents with telekinesis or a guy with retractable quills, happen.

    Sure you could play the percentages but that was the heavy part of that story line. Spider-Man and Venom can destroy a library downtown in a fight but some shy kid who looks 'normal' in 7 grade is doing things to classmates would be more than a cause for concern.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  3. #33408
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfMagnetism View Post
    Yeah, I used to like the X-Men movies but I've become completely bored and uninterested in the series. Disney/Marvel might make some good X-Men movies if/when they get the rights but at this point having openly gay characters is the only thing that would make me get hyped for an X-Men movie.
    It will be interesting to see how Iceman is handled, be it Fox or Disney. The special effects are evolving to a point where his power set will be easy to display.

    The real question will be if human minds will have evolved to where it is no big deal that a main protagonist is not straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I think originally, the X-Men were supposed to be a metaphor for communism, rather than a metaphor for minorities or LGBT people, then Claremont came along and well, we all know the rest. What also didn't help is that very few X-Men were people of color with the notable exception of Storm...ugh. Kitty Pryde saying the N-Word three times and comparing it to the term "Mutie." What made it worse is that the X-men constantly sat around their mansion feeling sorry for themselves most of the time. Even though most of them could easily pass for human, maybe that's why other superheroes didn't like being around them.

    The metaphor also falls apart in universe as well, I mean really, what's the difference between Wolverine and Captain America, one was born with his powers and the other one got them from drugs? So being born with powers is somehow worse than getting them from some random accident or an experiment?
    I always felt the first two Sentinel stories were a metaphor for minorities. The first story by Stan & Jack warned about guys like Bolivar Trask who got on TV being charismatic, yet spewing bigotry. Xavier, was sadly uncharismatic when he debated Trask on live TV. Xavier could have turned things around for mutants if he had a bit more personality. I think the last panel of the first story said something of "beware the fanatic, for his cure can be worst than the disease."

    The second Sentinel story by Roy Thomas & Neal Adams strongly drove the minority metaphor, especially with the revelation that Larry Trask was a mutant, himself. I need to read that again.

    The crazy thing is that both Trasks used TV to spread their hate. A lot of politicians do that during election year. A prime example would be Willie Horton, back in the day.

    The thing that really turned me off to the X-Men, besides the lack of POC, was also that some mutants actually are menaces that should be locked up, or heavily monitored.

    Xavier straight harbored a mass murderer in his ol' buddy Magneto, and left him in charge of the next generation. Magneto has yet to serve any hard time for his crimes. Xavier did the same thing with Sabretooth, Mystique, and others. Wolverine, with his berserker rages, should not be in the field if he can't control himself. You also have to count the number of times Logan has been under someone's control. Then we have Gambit, and his shady past. We have Namor who also followed in the tradition of X-Men actually causing more harm than good, yet are seemingly above facing any consequences. The only punishment Rogue caught was Carol beating her arse (although she may have the excuse for being a minor, and manipulated by Raven).

    You have mutants who can't control their powers, and you have mutants with beyond omega level street cred in terms of criminal behavior, acting like heroes.

    And to top it off, they live in mansions, have access to alien technology, and living better than most gangsta rappers. Some of them facing zero jail time, yet moping around.

    They too much.

  5. #33410
    Astonishing Member MasterOfMagnetism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    The metaphor also falls apart in universe as well, I mean really, what's the difference between Wolverine and Captain America, one was born with his powers and the other one got them from drugs? So being born with powers is somehow worse than getting them from some random accident or an experiment?
    When it comes to mutants in the MU this is how I've often thought of it; in real life there's people who don't care much if an actor on a show they like is gay but if it was their son who was gay suddenly they'd have a problem with it, people in the MU are ok with superheroes who protect the world and live in New York City are good but a mutant in their neighbourhood is a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Shaw View Post
    It will be interesting to see how Iceman is handled, be it Fox or Disney. The special effects are evolving to a point where his power set will be easy to display.

    The real question will be if human minds will have evolved to where it is no big deal that a main protagonist is not straight.
    We were discussing this exact topic in the LGBT Characters thread not too long ago. I won't be surprised if a Disney reboot of the X-Men doesn't involve Iceman, and least not at first. And as I said in the other thread it's completely possible that they'd just portray him as straight and say; "well the character dated women at first but maybe we'll explore the possibility of him coming out later in the series".

    And as for the part I bolded, I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. Sorry to sound like a pessimist, but it's just how I feel.

  6. #33411

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    Iceman being gay is an old internet meme that Bendis used to try to get over with X-fans. His entire run was pandering fan service for X-tremists. Beast is the bad guy for complaining about the team descending into moral relativism, Iceman is gay, Cyclops was right, the Avengers are assholes, hell, he even threw Rick Remender under the bus during Alex-Gate. Remember Kitty's tone deaf speech about people using unforgivable words, when old Claremont used to write her as being pretty quick to drop that n(*****)eutron bomb whenever she wanted to get her liberal white feminist outrage on?

    Seriously, Bendis' entire X-run was basically him reading threads on the x-forums and trying to stay on the mob's good side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfMagnetism View Post
    We were discussing this exact topic in the LGBT Characters thread not too long ago. I won't be surprised if a Disney reboot of the X-Men doesn't involve Iceman, and least not at first. And as I said in the other thread it's completely possible that they'd just portray him as straight and say; "well the character dated women at first but maybe we'll explore the possibility of him coming out later in the series".

    And as for the part I bolded, I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. Sorry to sound like a pessimist, but it's just how I feel.
    I understand.

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  9. #33414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Shaw View Post
    I think the last panel of the first story said something of "beware the fanatic, for his cure can be worst than the disease."
    I saved that quote and use it whenever I need it. It deserves to be remembered alongside "With great power there must also come - great responsibility!"



    "Beware the fanatic! Too often his cure is deadlier by far than the evil he denounces!"

    -Stan Lee, in X-Men #16, Jan 1966
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  10. #33415

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    Why does Night Watch look like a Korean manufactured version of Spawn that you might find in a flea market alongside some Car formers, and Special Joes super marine forces?
    You're like Witches in Salem. Just fuel for my fire.

  11. #33416
    BCB 4sake Baned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome men don't lose fights View Post
    Iceman being gay is an old internet meme that Bendis used to try to get over with X-fans. His entire run was pandering fan service for X-tremists. Beast is the bad guy for complaining about the team descending into moral relativism, Iceman is gay, Cyclops was right, the Avengers are assholes, hell, he even threw Rick Remender under the bus during Alex-Gate. Remember Kitty's tone deaf speech about people using unforgivable words, when old Claremont used to write her as being pretty quick to drop that n(*****)eutron bomb whenever she wanted to get her liberal white feminist outrage on?

    Seriously, Bendis' entire X-run was basically him reading threads on the x-forums and trying to stay on the mob's good side.
    Can't be better said..

  12. #33417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Interesting! I'm sure there's be lots of changes seeing as character was originally a spoof of Todd McFarland's Spawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Interesting! I'm sure there's be lots of changes seeing as character was originally a spoof of Todd McFarland's Spawn.
    Plus the character is Blade pre-Snipes level obscure, so no one will care about those changes. It's kind of funny to see Spike make a superhero movie though, as I recall him expressing his disinterest in doing so many moons ago. But hey times and people change. The fact that he hasn't made a movie people want to see since Inside Man is a factor too, I'd guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That, yeah, that sounds bad.

    Though, would Johnson have anything to do with the novels? I thought those would be handled by different people?
    I just learned Rian is involved in the senior novel but not the junior novel ...whatever that means.
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  15. #33420
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Really, the comparison never made sense to begin with. You can't compare people of color, or in the case of the Bryan Singer films LGBT people, to people who can wipe out entire cities or in a few cases, all of humanity. Nor did it ever really make sense that this prejudice would exist in the Marvel universe.
    It sort of does...
    The public would look different on adults who have gotten powers and are now superheroes, and random hormonal teenagers who one day wake up with powers of mass destruction, just because of their natural DNA. But it doesn't have much to do with bigotry.
    Now, the X-Men themselves being "feared and hated" as the saying goes, that does not make much sense.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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