Hatred for the female love interest

[Arvandor]

Did fans dislike Laurel in season one? I only remember a vehement opposition to the character when she began drinking to excess and stealing her father's pain medication. Laurel was specifically written to be unlikeable in season two. She was irrational, and hostile to friends and family. Whether that was to contrast against Sara, or to make it so that Oliver wasn't the least likeable character on his own show, I could speculate, but fans were perfectly justified in their dislike of Laurel. Now that she's not written to be a complete train wreck for season three, fans don't seem as opposed to her any more.

I despised Laurell from the start. I thought season 2 was an improvement, in that they made her whineyness a plot point, rather than just who she is.

[Iron Fist]

So you think men are not capable to write good female characters? That's pretty sexist. The history of Cinema would say otherwise. Maybe current male writers cannot do it however and I'm not sure why. Only thing I can think of is that in the last few years more geeks have been involved in filmmaking and maybe they don't get women. (again it's a theory)

I don't think it's sexist, I didn't say every man ever, just the majority writing atm. There are men who can write women and write women well (Gaiman, George R R Martin etc) but women in TV who aren't an extension of a man or have a complex personality are few and far between.

I think one of the big divides on women is network and cable. I mean compare female characters from a CW show to female characters on The Walking Dead. On the CW you have characters like Laurel on Arrow who is basically handed from man to man in between being the damsel in distress and then you have Carol on Walking Dead who went from being a battered woman to a ruthlessly pragmatic killer.

[7thangel]

there are some characters that are written badly, case in point, katrina from sleepy hallow. the dislike for the character is on the writers, who have constantly pushed her as powerful but has been a damsel in distress for 2 seasons now. and since they're trying to push back on the obvious chemistry of the two leads, and the predictable shipping that goes with any show, they've sidelined popular side characters and abbie, the co-lead, in an attempt to give her and ichabod love more airtime. thing is, ill feelings are also starting to be directed to ichabod as well, so she isn't the only one bearing the brunt of the dislike.

however, there have been female characters that have been written good and realistically, that have gotten hate simply because they won't get out of the way of the male protag and 'let him be great', even if it's being a great evil a-hole (like dexter, vince mackey, etc). pretending that bias isn't a factor for some of these characters is bizarre and naive

[JediMindTrick]

Fitzsimmons is a merger of Fitz and Simmons, two characters from Agents of Shield...and she won't be his girlfriend...unless I'm mistaken the character that you're thinking of was the fiancé of the guy that turned into Firestorm, or one of the guys that turns into Firestorm...I think that her name is Caitlin Snow or something like that...as for Linda Park...remember that the character is also the wife of the next flash Wally West...at least she is in the comics...

I know where Fitzsimmons comes from. I just find those two characters on AoS utterly annoying which is why I call the Flash girl, Caitlin is it (I can never remember), by the same name since she is just as annoying. I know Linda is the wife of Wally which is why I said introducing her as Barry's new love interest is yet another kick in the nuts to Wally fans.

[JediMindTrick]

I think one of the big divides on women is network and cable. I mean compare female characters from a CW show to female characters on The Walking Dead. On the CW you have characters like Laurel on Arrow who is basically handed from man to man in between being the damsel in distress and then you have Carol on Walking Dead who went from being a battered woman to a ruthlessly pragmatic killer.

Its not all CW shows. The lead character, Clarke, on The 100 is a female and anything but a damsel in distress and more often than not is the one rescuing guys in distress. The 2nd lead female, Octavia, on the show is also anything but a damsel in distress. Nor is the 3rd lead female or 4th.

The females on the Vampire Diaries and Originals all mostly avoid the damsel in distress tropes.

And in a roundabout way the CW is the network where Buffy started. Its gone through several name changes and mergers . . the think it was called the WB back then or maybe that was in intermediate name.

[shades of eternity]

I'm just gonna say that Hellboy and Liz are the best romantic couple in a superhero movie... waitaminute, maybe they're tied with Mr. and Mrs. Incredible.

Red and Liz really illustrate these points.

Liz is seriously messed up.

So is Red.

However, even though one is a 80 year old man child and the other has serious anger management issues, they compliment each other in the field instead of being a foil for each other.

They feel real, despite their idiosyncrasies.

More importantly, they also save each other.

In the first movie Liz literally has the agent hit her so he can torch the room saving red's life.

Red then returns the favor by bringing her back from the dead.

I think that's what we really need: co dependent relationships with screwed up people.

It's kind of sad that The Monarch and Doctor Girlfriend have a more healthier relationship then a lot of the relationships in this thread. .

[maczero]

Its not all CW shows. The lead character, Clarke, on The 100 is a female and anything but a damsel in distress and more often than not is the one rescuing guys in distress. The 2nd lead female, Octavia, on the show is also anything but a damsel in distress. Nor is the 3rd lead female or 4th.

The females on the Vampire Diaries and Originals all mostly avoid the damsel in distress tropes.

And in a roundabout way the CW is the network where Buffy started. Its gone through several name changes and mergers . . the think it was called the WB back then or maybe that was in intermediate name.

Yeah, I think the poster you're responding to should have chosen another network besides the CW as an example of female inequalities. I'd say about 60% of their primetime lineup features shows with female leads.

[Agent Z]

there are some characters that are written badly, case in point, katrina from sleepy hallow. the dislike for the character is on the writers, who have constantly pushed her as powerful but has been a damsel in distress for 2 seasons now. and since they're trying to push back on the obvious chemistry of the two leads, and the predictable shipping that goes with any show, they've sidelined popular side characters and abbie, the co-lead, in an attempt to give her and ichabod love more airtime. thing is, ill feelings are also starting to be directed to ichabod as well, so she isn't the only one bearing the brunt of the dislike.

however, there have been female characters that have been written good and realistically, that have gotten hate simply because they won't get out of the way of the male protag and 'let him be great', even if it's being a great evil a-hole (like dexter, vince mackey, etc). pretending that bias isn't a factor for some of these characters is bizarre and naive

I would like to point out Katrina was a valuable source of information in the first season even if she wasn't physically fighting side-by-side with Abby and Ichabod. Plus she was the one that cast the spell that allowed Ichabod to be resurrected. I'd say she contributes her fair share to the plot. I also do not agree on side characters benig side lined for her, as she's had only a handful of episodes focus on her directly.

[Rogue Star]

I despised Laurell from the start. I thought season 2 was an improvement, in that they made her whineyness a plot point, rather than just who she is.

See, I'm not the only one.

[Da Boat]

I don't think it's sexist, I didn't say every man ever, just the majority writing atm. There are men who can write women and write women well (Gaiman, George R R Martin etc) but women in TV who aren't an extension of a man or have a complex personality are few and far between.

I think one of the big divides on women is network and cable. I mean compare female characters from a CW show to female characters on The Walking Dead. On the CW you have characters like Laurel on Arrow who is basically handed from man to man in between being the damsel in distress and then you have Carol on Walking Dead who went from being a battered woman to a ruthlessly pragmatic killer.

But I have this questionement of why it's been happening now in the last few years(well we can time this beginning with MJ in the first Spider-Man movie). I've never noticed or being annoyed by female characters from TV before or any sort of fiction, in movies or whatever. I'm not talking about female villains that we are supposed to hate. But why are the love interest in super-hero movies since 2002 have been so badly written and been so unlikable? Is this because male writers these days cannot write women? Is this because of the influence of the WB/CW Network and the overly whiny nature of these teeny stories? I mean it started with Spider-Man and Smallville and it has never stopped.

[Iron Fist]

But I have this questionement of why it's been happening now in the last few years(well we can time this beginning with MJ in the first Spider-Man movie). I've never noticed or being annoyed by female characters from TV before or any sort of fiction, in movies or whatever. I'm not talking about female villains that we are supposed to hate. But why are the love interest in super-hero movies since 2002 have been so badly written and been so unlikable? Is this because male writers these days cannot write women? Is this because of the influence of the WB/CW Network and the overly whiny nature of these teeny stories? I mean it started with Spider-Man and Smallville and it has never stopped.

Well these are my sort of crackpot theories but you the feminist push for more female characters (rightfully so) and you have social networks both happening at the same time ie early 2000s.

I also think it's because the love interests in superheroes before were largely commodified, they weren't really there for any reason other than for the hero to get. I mean look at the earlier batman movies, the only example I can think that works against me is Lois & Clark, but Lois was damsel in distress 24/7 pretty much.

You could also blame the inclusion of romance in general shows to try and cross promote between audiences, I mean sexistly speaking men like ACTION and women like ROMANCE, so give a superhero a girlfriend and *zelda unlock secret noise*

I don't think you can really pin it on one thing, it's a selection of things happening at once.

[Da Boat]

Well these are my sort of crackpot theories but you the feminist push for more female characters (rightfully so) and you have social networks both happening at the same time ie early 2000s.

I also think it's because the love interests in superheroes before were largely commodified, they weren't really there for any reason other than for the hero to get. I mean look at the earlier batman movies, the only example I can think that works against me is Lois & Clark, but Lois was damsel in distress 24/7 pretty much.

You could also blame the inclusion of romance in general shows to try and cross promote between audiences, I mean sexistly speaking men like ACTION and women like ROMANCE, so give a superhero a girlfriend and *zelda unlock secret noise*

I don't think you can really pin it on one thing, it's a selection of things happening at once.

Well I don't think the damsel in distress concept has any link to why female love interest became badly written and were unlikable. But you're right that by trying to maybe cross-promote maybe to a female demo they forced romantic interests in places where it should not be. Case in point Chris Nolan on Batman Begins. Nolan said Warner said only one thing to him: you have carte blanche but Bruce has to have a female love interest. And in the movie you can see that it wasn't Nolan's best asset when it came to this character. She was a source of conflict that audience were annoyed by.

[Iron Fist]

Well I don't think the damsel in distress concept has any link to why female love interest became badly written and were unlikable.

Oh I disagree. The damsel used to be offscreen and you never had to deal with her again. It's the video game logic, Princess Peach is there for 2 seconds, gets captured and we never see her again until we rescue her at the end. She's a glorified plot device.

In tv and film, you can't do that. You have to establish their relationship, establish why the female love interest matters before you can put her into a damsel in distress scenario. And this has happened with every single superhero movie and tv show since. The problem with the audience is they recognise that the female character is a plot device, she might have a few sub plots to make her more 'realistic' but ultimately she's going to be in need of some saving fairly soon and most audiences cannot be bothered with that character and I can't see why.

Writers should, in my opinion, not use the love interest as bait or a prize and instead give the love interest their own story that is equally as interesting as the main plot or just give them less screentime. The problem is bad writing based on a long beaten dead horse of a trope ie damsels in distress and also most writers can't really think of something for female characters to do because they still see men and women as foreign species.

But you're right that by trying to maybe cross-promote maybe to a female demo they forced romantic interests in places where it should not be. Case in point Chris Nolan on Batman Begins. Nolan said Warner said only one thing to him: you have carte blanche but Bruce has to have a female love interest. And in the movie you can see that it wasn't Nolan's best asset when it came to this character. She was a source of conflict that audience were annoyed by.

This is exactly the problem. Stories can't be stories because there are all these people butting in who think they know better, and they're the people in charge so you get very little say in the matter.

Supernatural has quite a weird spin on this problem because they literally kill any female love interest for Sam and Dean. I think maybe one or two are still alive but that's it. The fandom has real hatred for love interests because they detract from the focus of the show and while I find it rather tiresome to see in the fandom, it's quite easy to understand why. You don't want your show diluted with the same romance BS you've seen 200 times before on other shows, it detracts from the reason you want to watch a show ie it being different from everything else.

[Da Boat]

Oh I disagree. The damsel used to be offscreen and you never had to deal with her again. It's the video game logic, Princess Peach is there for 2 seconds, gets captured and we never see her again until we rescue her at the end. She's a glorified plot device.

In tv and film, you can't do that. You have to establish their relationship, establish why the female love interest matters before you can put her into a damsel in distress scenario. And this has happened with every single superhero movie and tv show since. The problem with the audience is they recognise that the female character is a plot device, she might have a few sub plots to make her more 'realistic' but ultimately she's going to be in need of some saving fairly soon and most audiences cannot be bothered with that character and I can't see why.

But people don't hate these characters because they are damsell in distress, they hate these characters cause they go "hey Ollie Queen, you're a jerk cause what happened to my sister!". I mean Laurel was annoying the first time I saw her, she wasn't falling from some trap for the hero to save her. Lana in Smallville wasn't annoying cause Clark had to save her, she was annoying cause she was always "why do you keep secrets from me, come on!".

Writers should, in my opinion, not use the love interest as bait or a prize and instead give the love interest their own story that is equally as interesting as the main plot or just give them less screentime. The problem is bad writing based on a long beaten dead horse of a trope ie damsels in distress and also most writers can't really think of something for female characters to do because they still see men and women as foreign species.

Again it's more like they should stop making these characters jerks and accept the heroes for who they are and be part of the solution, not the conflict.

This is exactly the problem. Stories can't be stories because there are all these people butting in who think they know better, and they're the people in charge so you get very little say in the matter.

Right.

Supernatural has quite a weird spin on this problem because they literally kill any female love interest for Sam and Dean. I think maybe one or two are still alive but that's it. The fandom has real hatred for love interests because they detract from the focus of the show and while I find it rather tiresome to see in the fandom, it's quite easy to understand why. You don't want your show diluted with the same romance BS you've seen 200 times before on other shows, it detracts from the reason you want to watch a show ie it being different from everything else.[/QUOTE]

Right they want to make it about the two brothers. Although sometime it pisses me off that they do that. Maybe that's the solution though, no long lasting girlfriends. But Supernatural is a different animal cause they are on a mission and always on the road. Super-heroes are generally in a more stable environment.

All in all I find that funny that after all the countless super-hero movies and shows they have had so much trouble about just making the love interest work. I know they want to exist some sort of conflict a la His Girl Friday but it can be good-natured too. Like the 80s show Remington Steel with Pierce Brosnan. Of course it was two leads male and female but even if sometime they were at each other's throats, you knew they loved each other. That's it, we need the 80s back!