Wonder Woman #36 Spoilers

[dimo1]

All these discussions about reviews, let's be honest, everybody has different tastes. For some the previous run was underwhelming, other, like me, loved it. Does it mean I rip 36 apart? No, there are scenes I enjoyed, as the ending and the Amazons, and some I disliked, especially the forced Swamp Thing fight. To sum it up, my verdict is medicore, not great, not bad, an avarage issue, but as I like Finchs' art I tag along for a while.

[BlueEcho]

Hey.

I don't think my previous comment was very clear, I wasn't saying that it being connected to the DCU or liking that was a bad thing. The review was lacking in that it mainly talked about plot elements and then what is basically stuff outside the story- its connection to the DCUs, which like I said, has little to do with its quality- but seemed to put less attention on the actual craft of the comic: the writing style, the pacing, the storytelling techniques, the characterisation of the new characters (who is basically everyone in this issue) etc. That's why to me it didn't feel like a very good review.

I wasn't really talking about the Azz run, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone on various sites talk about Wonder Woman being "bad-ass" about her becoming God of War. It would be a betrayal of her character if she was indeed turning into a blood-fuelled berserker craving war (sort of like Ares in Greek myth, while Athena was also a goddess of war, but perceived as a different facet of it) but even Ares was sick of that in the Azz run, which is itself pretty telling that God of War includes many things. I think it's an interesting direction for the character, adding some conflict to her that you wouldn't normally see, and is no more betraying to her than the basic idea of superheros being against crime but acting as vigilantes solving most of their problems by beating the crap out of people.

I think to be fair that different readers take different things out of comics. For instance, I am not usually so concerned with canon as to previous stories as long as the present one is engaging. That being said different reviewers are going to have different interests in comics, and if someone is interested in comic reviews then it is better for them to find reviewers that match their own interests. I know more about Wonder Woman than the average comic reader, but that does not make me an expert and it does not make my opinion more valid than any other. I just bring my own perspective to the review, and I stand by it.

[DochaDocha]

Well, I finally read it, and I totally understand why so many people hated it, prejudices against Meredith Finch aside. I don't know how long the Finches will be on the title, but based on the dialogue and some of the characterization here, I wouldn't be surprised if the run gets hampered by similar problems throughout. On top of that, I can't say I like the way Finch draws WW, either. There are definitely some good panels, but some of the others just look off.

On the other hand, there are some seeds of hope planted here, and if they turn out well, I think it can salvage this run. I, for one, never minded that Azz's run was totally insular and included none of the rest of the DCU less the New Gods. That's a valid way to do a run, and I think throughout the most part it worked great. Likewise, choosing to incorporate this book with the rest of the DCU also has its benefits, and after three years of isolation, a little incorporation won't hurt and might actually be nice. So we got acknowledgement of the Azz run, Superman/Wonder Woman, and the Justice League titles all in one issue, and I, for one, thought that was pretty neat.

I wouldn't endorse this issue, but at least it's showing me something, unlike "Amazon Attacks" which was partially responsible for making me drop all comics for about 2 years.

[brettc1]

I remember back in 2010, when the prologue and the first chapter of Superman's "Grounded" were released and people were making up excuses just to have something with which to bash the story and JMS.

Well, looking through this thread, it's deja vu all over again...

Mentioning JMS stories is probably not a way to garner support on the Wonder Woman board.

[brettc1]

Oh well, if it's open season on review links, here's my own ...

Yeah, that is pretty much it for me. Good work Mart.

[Silvanus]

As for the "vegetative injustice" line. I don't think it's horrible. A little dramatic, yes, but for you to make a big deal about one sentence after dealing with 3 years of horrible puns from Azzarello seems odd.

I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it "horrible," but what's odd about liking puns and disliking this line? The line isn't a pun, as far as I can see. A pun is a a play on words, with some kind of double meaning.

Azz's first pun, "sun of a king," told me something how self-involved and narcissistic Apollo is; he didn't even care that the pun would sail right over the heads of the oracles-to-be. What does the use of the phrase "feminine injustice" say about Wonder Woman? If anything, it might tell us that she is not very articulate and would probably describe "injustice against women" as "feminine injustice"; but more likely, it tells us nothing about the character, but only shows something about the writing. (I say "writing," not "writer"; she could improve!)

Lots of people like Shakespeare's puns; that doesn't mean that to be consistent they have to like all sloppy, imprecise word choices. Whether the phrase "vegetative injustice" is sloppy and imprecise can be up for debate--and if it doesn't bother you, great. But I don't think it makes any sense to assume that if people like puns, they shouldn't find certain other word choices annoying. There's no contradiction there. Many Shakespearean scholars love puns--you would almost have to love puns to be a Shakeperean scholar, I think--but they tend to be picky about sloppy, uncrafted language.

What bothered me more than this one odd bit of diction, though, was the cliches and the generally bland, unremarkable, unoriginal language. "Now I feel like I'm being pulled in a thousand different directions...just when I start to think I'm getting control in one area of my life, another falls apart...I still can't be in two places at once...No matter what I choose, I'll still be letting someone down." Could there be a less original, more boring way to express these thoughts? I'm not sure that there could. It's a shame, because the idea are interesting; work-life balance is a terrific theme for a comic about a feminist icon. But the writing itself is not interesting at all, in my opinion.

Being that Finch is going for a huge tonal shift with the book, it's hard to imagine those who were first introduced to WW in Azz's run liking this 180 degree change of direction. Then there's the folks who were saying Mrs. Finch, with being so new to the industry, couldn't possibly write a decent Wonder Woman story. The poor lady is getting poked on all sides.

The reverse may also be true; some who intensely disliked Azz's run may be liking this one for the ISA Factor: I'ts Not Azaarello. That's not objective either. But then, honestly, what does objectivity have to do with whether or not we like a comic book?

As for "the poor lady"--she seems like a likeable person and I hope she ends up having a good run and a good career in comics. But she also deserves to be taken seriously and to have her work critiqued honestly, just as Azz did.

[Dr. Poison]

I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it "horrible," but what's odd about liking puns and disliking this line? The line isn't a pun, as far as I can see. A pun is a a play on words, with some kind of double meaning.

Azz's first pun, "sun of a king," told me something how self-involved and narcissistic Apollo is; he didn't even care that the pun would sail right over the heads of the oracles-to-be. What does the use of the phrase "feminine injustice" say about Wonder Woman? If anything, it might tell us that she is not very articulate and would probably describe "injustice against women" as "feminine injustice"; but more likely, it tells us nothing about the character, but only shows something about the writing. (I say "writing," not "writer"; she could improve!)

Lots of people like Shakespeare's puns; that doesn't mean that to be consistent they have to like all sloppy, imprecise word choices. Whether the phrase "vegetative injustice" is sloppy and imprecise can be up for debate--and if it doesn't bother you, great. But I don't think it makes any sense to assume that if people like puns, they shouldn't find certain other word choices annoying. There's no contradiction there. Many Shakespearean scholars love puns--you would almost have to love puns to be a Shakeperean scholar, I think--but they tend to be picky about sloppy, uncrafted language.

What bothered me more than this one odd bit of diction, though, was the cliches and the generally bland, unremarkable, unoriginal language. "Now I feel like I'm being pulled in a thousand different directions...just when I start to think I'm getting control in one area of my life, another falls apart...I still can't be in two places at once...No matter what I choose, I'll still be letting someone down." Could there be a less original, more boring way to express these thoughts? I'm not sure that there could. It's a shame, because the idea are interesting; work-life balance is a terrific theme for a comic about a feminist icon. But the writing itself is not interesting at all, in my opinion.



The reverse may also be true; some who intensely disliked Azz's run may be liking this one for the ISA Factor: I'ts Not Azaarello. That's not objective either. But then, honestly, what does objectivity have to do with whether or not we like a comic book?

As for "the poor lady"--she seems like a likeable person and I hope she ends up having a good run and a good career in comics. But she also deserves to be taken seriously and to have her work critiqued honestly, just as Azz did.

Who have you seen say they like Finch's work because she's not Azzarello? While I disliked Azz's run, there are plenty more creators that I would not want writing Wonder Woman and I would guess that people in a similar boat as myself feel the same way.

[wagthedog]

First, even if what you say is true (which it's not), what's wrong with that?

Second, the greater DCU was mentioned plenty - and I feel like you're purposefully ignoring Orion and the New Gods usage in the run.

I'm sorry. I forgot about the cornerstone of DC comics and the New Gods. What do they have, about 4-5 monthly's out their?

Azz created a run in which his 37 issues were totally outside of all contact of the nuDC. No mention of events inside of his book, including the fact that she was/is in a relationship with Superman. Not even a word. He did have the new Gods in, but then again, in which of the New God comics did Wonder Woman crossover. Oh....that's right, the New Gods don't have their own book, so Azz could pretty much do as he pleases with them since they really aren't 'important' to the DC universe proper.

No mention of the Justice League or any of her colleagues. His world was very much self contained, felt mostly like an elseworlds story. If someone were to read it much later on, they would probably ask if Diana was being used in the shared Universe they call the nu52. I certainly got that impression. So yes, it is true, that his story didn't incorporate the greater DC universe. I do not look at the new Gods or Orion as examples that he did. In the big scope of DC, the new Gods or Orion don't even have comic books out, so obviously they are not that important or popular.

Besides the new Gods and Orion, were did Azz mention in his run the greater DCU? The nu52 is a shared universe, and for him to go 37 issues and not mention or have her involved in it was not a good idea. With his slow pace, he could have certainly thrown a line in here or there to even show that he acknowledges the rest. But then again, that wasn't the story he wanted written right?

[SonOfBaldwin]

Wow, they're all bad and i agree with all of them!

PS: Welcome to CBR SonOfBaldwin!

Thank you, Dr. Hurt!

CBR just posted their review as well:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...review&id=8004

And here's another from Comic Vine:

http://www.comicvine.com/reviews/won...-36/1900-3659/

[DochaDocha]

Yeah, I don't think featuring Orion and the New Gods is sufficient to claim that the DCU was well-represented in Azz's run. Again, I thought Azz's decision to remain insular was fine and worked out well, but if you purposely ignore every single event that occurred in two other books Wonder Woman prominently featured in including the company's flagship title, as well as the handful of stories in which she guest-starred, then the DCU should be considered largely absent.

[wagthedog]

Yeah, I don't think featuring Orion and the New Gods is sufficient to claim that the DCU was well-represented in Azz's run. Again, I thought Azz's decision not remain insular was fine and worked out well, but if you purposely ignore every single event that occurred in two other books Wonder Woman prominently featured in including the company's flagship title, as well as the handful of stories in which she guest-starred, then the DCU should be considered largely absent.

That is pretty much my point. If you want to let writers do their thing for 37 or so issues and be independent from the rest of the shared universe, then fine. But don't try and defend it to suggest that it was part of a shared universe.

[Razor Tiara]

Mentioning JMS stories is probably not a way to garner support on the Wonder Woman board.

I loved the Odyssey, it got even better when Phil Hester came on board. That was a true horror story, with buckets of blood. It was probably the most action packed Wonder Woman run ever. There was never a better Dr. Psycho issue. And it was the one time since Perez's reintroduction that Cheetah was actually threatening. It also had by far the best version of Giganta. Most of all we the readers felt a strong emotional connection to Diana. She was tough, proactive, cool as hell and there was no downplaying of her ideals. She was 100% Wonder Woman despite her new costume.

[Silvanus]

The reverse may also be true; some who intensely disliked Azz's run may be liking this one for the ISA Factor: I'ts Not Azaarello. That's not objective either. But then, honestly, what does objectivity have to do with whether or not we like a comic book?

Who have you seen say they like Finch's work because she's not Azzarello?

If I were thinking of people had said so outright, I probably would have said "are," not "may." But, just as you "find it hard to imagine" that people first drawn to WW by Azz would like this run, I find it hard to imagine that people who disliked Azz's run would not be at least a little predisposed to like this one by the fact that it is, in some ways, a departure from his. If this run had come right after Simone's or Heinberg's or Jiminez's, ins't it possible that you would have been comparing it to theirs and that it would have looked worse by comparison? Or, conversely, isn't it possible that this run look better to you by contrast with Azz's than it would look otherwise? Of course, it goes without saying that such a predisposition could have been overridden by another factor, like if the new run had a writer whom you already disliked.

None of us are objective. Again, why should we be objective about what comics we like? "Liking" is not objective.

While I don't claim to be completely objective, I will say that I'd like to enjoy this book, and it certainly doesn't have to be just like Azz's for me to enjoy it. Zola and the gods don't have to be in it, for example--though of course I'd be glad if they were, as long as they were well portrayed. But, for me, the dialogue needs to be more interesting and better crafted, and Diana should be portrayed as more self-assured and mature. I'm pretty sure I'd feel that way no matter which run this followed.

[Razor Tiara]

Some of the reviews of WONDER WOMAN #36 are in:

http://www.comicosity.com/review-wonder-woman-36/

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/...36feb87e000044

http://multiversitycomics.com/review...es-run-review/

http://www.newsarama.com/22793-best-...l-10-more.html

Those reviews hold no credibility with me. They all reference the alleged greatness of Azzarello's run. When you go in wanting to hate something (subconsciously or otherwise) that's pretty much what's going to happen.

[Blacksun]

Yeah, I don't think featuring Orion and the New Gods is sufficient to claim that the DCU was well-represented in Azz's run. Again, I thought Azz's decision to remain insular was fine and worked out well, but if you purposely ignore every single event that occurred in two other books Wonder Woman prominently featured in including the company's flagship title, as well as the handful of stories in which she guest-starred, then the DCU should be considered largely absent.

I think it was, like why would I want all DCU on a WW run? azz picked and choose the best element to fit his story new gods.
wW 36 is a example of forcing larger DCU on a ww issue