Superman Wonder Woman #13 Spoilers/Discussion

[MarvelMaster616]

Clark is not asking for her nullify herself, but she keep doing it. how long can she be happy for what makes HIM happy, not her? something that she can't understand and clearly doesn't like that clark aspect. Diana civil life is nothing like clark's one.

I see little evolution from both.

I think you're being somewhat petty here. Diana gave no impression that she didn't like Clark's writing. She just didn't really understand it. I mean why would she not like it? I think that's really OOC for her because it would make her way too cynical. It's not like this is an unhealthy hobby or anything. Clark is writing for people he couldn't save. He's not asking her to understand it. He's not asking her to do it with him. He's not even demanding that she embrace it. I don't get why you see this as such a detriment.

And this is where I think the criticism of this issue and this series becomes way too asinine. So much of it is based on petty details that are often variations among writers. We get that all the time in comics. The way Geoff Johns writes Superman is different from the one Greg Pak writes. But it's still the same character. You can't single out a few panels from a book and make sweeping generalizations. That's the kind of logic only creationists use. I'm not saying this issue has its flaws, but those flaws really aren't that major in the grand scheme of things.

[misslane]

Oh, he will have to compromise as well. I expect him to start seeing her point of view as well, of course it shouldn't be just one sided. I think this book has failed to do this so far because we basically have arcs all centered around Superman or his villains.

I agree that this book has thus far failed to tell a balanced story.

If Diana has to understand what it means to him to be human, he has as well to understand what it means to her, so far he hasn't. And he has to understand also her other roles, that of god of war and of queen. One thing I think he should never ask to her is when she is Diana Prince to change her behaviour, her personality, that I don't think she would accept.

After deep consideration, I still can't think of a single aspect of Diana's life and world that would require the same level of personal adjustment and sacrifice as creating and maintaining a fully functioning dual identity.

And anyway it's not like she has to have a full time job if she doesn't want one, and probably with all her roles she would not even have the time for that, nor she will have necessary to settle down in Metropolis. With Bruce and Cyborg's help they can make her identity credible anyway. And there are not only human resources at their disposition. To make her not recognizable even without her putting as much effort as Clark they can use other tools, what about some magical artifacts from Hephaestus? And I imagine also Clark can have some kryptonian artifact which could help.

Diana wouldn't settle down in Metropolis? But that's where Clark lives and will continue to live unless they both intend to eventually lead rootless, nomadic lives. I was never concerned about Diana's potential to be recognized. Bruce and Cyborg may be able to create a foundation for a false identity, but Diana will need to live that identity truthfully to some extent in order to make it believable.

Plus, for them distance is nothing, and since their relationship is out, they can stay together also as Superman and Wonder Woman. I think it is wrong to think that their relationship has necessarily to be a traditional and normal one. They have different options like I have said. To accept this would be Clark's compromise.

For both Diana and Clark, I believe it would be detrimental to the long-term of the relationship to deliberately limit their interactions. Would either of them be okay with committed relationship or possibly even a marriage in which living together is not an option? I don't think it sounds like a good idea for either Clark or Diana to give up so much of who they are or what they want in order to sustain their relationship in the future. Give and take is important for any relationship, but what Clark and Diana may have to do to make things work seem to go above and beyond. The kind of accommodations in question here are exactly the sort of compromises that generate tremendous strain, perhaps even resentment, over time.

Diana Prince's ID can be fake, they can make it up so that Diana can stay with him when he is Clark Kent and he doesn't have to give up on his secret identity, but at the same time theirs wouldn't be a traditional relationship, she would have her freedom, she wouldn't be trapped in that identity, and Clark would have to accept that.

The ID can't be fake, not really. Some aspects of it have to be maintained as real in order for them to be verifiable and true.

[misslane]

From this issue, we can see that Clark can get caught up in his work, to the point of neglecting other aspects of his life. It is therefore not surprising that Diana is curious and wants to talk about that aspect of his life, that she doesn't understand, because it seems to consume all other aspects of his life. It shows an interest on her part about something that he apparently loves so much. Even though she may come off like an angry girlfriend to some people, Clark doesn't seem to mind being distracted from doing something he loves, because the important thing is that he loves her and wants to share his life with her. She is someone that can bring much needed balance to his life, and remind him of what's important, and this shows a willingness on his part.

What didn't work for me was that Diana's curiosity was presented alongside Clark's frustration with having to explain himself again and again. It made it seem that no matter how many times Diana seeks to understand Clark, and he attempts to facilitate her understanding with his explanations, she will never really get it. There also seems to be a misunderstanding here about what Clark was doing. You, for example, referred to Clark's writing as "work" and suggested that he needs to understand what's truly important in order to bring balance to his life. None of these interpretations are supported by the text. Clark doesn't see his writing as work. According to this issue and previous issues, writing is an escape; it makes him happy to write. It's the act of writing that gives Clark a way to balance his heroic and human lives. Writing is an activity Clark uses to create balance in his life.

Even Lois, knows that theres a limit to what a person can do. Theres a time and place for everything. Humans need down time in order to recharge there batteries. If humans worked as much as Clark likes to work, they would be physically and emotionally exhausted. Clark can spend the night on his typewriter writing a paper, till the sun rises, and show up to work fresh as anyone else. Physically fine, but emotionally speaking, he is no different than any other human. The more he tries to do, the less efficient he becomes and the less efficient he becomes, the more he tries to do. All this in order to get that same emotional fulfillment he used to get, it's a vicious circle, and it might also explain his writers block.

Clark wasn't really working, though. For him, writing like this is an escape; it's emotionally nourishing for him to write.

This sort of thing doesn't just apply to her relationship with Clark, but with pretty much any other man she would be dating. Unless she wants a repeat of Steve Trevor fiasco. Because she comes from a different world, it ultimately comes down as to what she wants to do with her life and with who she wants to plant roots. It's not much of a sacrifice if that's what she really wants.

As far as I can tell, Diana wouldn't have needed to create an elaborate dual identity to have a life with Steve. If Diana really wants to have a dual identity, then that's fine. I haven't seen much evidence that it would be something she would love unreservedly.

[BlackFeath]

I agree that this book has thus far failed to tell a balanced story.

After deep consideration, I still can't think of a single aspect of Diana's life and world that would require the same level of personal adjustment and sacrifice as creating and maintaining a fully functioning dual identity.

Diana wouldn't settle down in Metropolis? But that's where Clark lives and will continue to live unless they both intend to eventually lead rootless, nomadic lives. I was never concerned about Diana's potential to be recognized. Bruce and Cyborg may be able to create a foundation for a false identity, but Diana will need to live that identity truthfully to some extent in order to make it believable.

For both Diana and Clark, I believe it would be detrimental to the long-term of the relationship to deliberately limit their interactions. Would either of them be okay with committed relationship or possibly even a marriage in which living together is not an option? I don't think it sounds like a good idea for either Clark or Diana to give up so much of who they are or what they want in order to sustain their relationship in the future. Give and take is important for any relationship, but what Clark and Diana may have to do to make things work seem to go above and beyond. The kind of accommodations in question here are exactly the sort of compromises that generate tremendous strain, perhaps even resentment, over time.

The ID can't be fake, not really. Some aspects of it have to be maintained as real in order for them to be verifiable and true.

They would still continue to live together, but people wouldn't know that. I was thinking at something like this: They have a house together in Metropolis, ok, but Diana Prince is said to work in London, for example. Fake ID and all do their part. For Clark's friends, Clark and Diana see each other not very often. Sometimes Clark goes to visit her and stays in London for some time, sometimes it's Diana who visits him and stays in Metropolis for a while, but she doesn't work there, so no need to fake she does. In true they see each other basically every day. Some days it's Diana who flies to Metropolis at night, sometimes it's Clark who flies to London, or they meet at the Fortress or where they want to.

The ID is basically for Clark's friends who live in Metropolis, while in London Diana can continue with her life. If someone tries to investigate and does it informatically, thanks to Bruce and Cyborg there are fake documents online. If someones goes there, he/she will see Diana living her life (in London it's not like they recognize her as WW when she doesn't wear her costume. Like I said I think she has already some fake ID of sort, because she has already one or maybe more houses). She could be said to work for Hessia, for example, so that in case of an investigation, Hessia can confirm that and inform Diana that someone is suspecting something.
And then we could have a story of someone suspecting and as usually it is with Superman protecting his identity, at the end Diana's ID will be safe, they'll invent something so that it will.

Another option: instead of working in London Diana could be a volunteer in war zones. In Justice League we already see her there helping people as WW, but she could go there as Diana Prince as well. Plus, with her going there also her being now god of war could be explored. This job of her would be very much true but still something she wants to do and that she would do anyway and that would explain her supposed long absences from Metropolis (even if her and Clark see each other anyway thanks to their powers). (Basically she helps there as Diana Prince, but when and if situations get tough, she switches to WW).

So, still living together, only not always in the same place. That is why I said theirs would be a not traditional relationship.
It's not like similar relationship don't exist, though, there are people who are married but still work in different cities and see each other only on week ends or even less (but in true Clark and Diana are only apparentely distant from each other, because they can see each other anyway whenever they want just by flying in seconds around the world and they can also settle together every night and return to their separate lives only in the morning xD).

Oh, and Clark would even have an excuse ready for when he will be away because of Superman, something like this: 'I went to London to visit Diana' xD

[Blacksun]

I think you're being somewhat petty here. Diana gave no impression that she didn't like Clark's writing. She just didn't really understand it. I mean why would she not like it? I think that's really OOC for her because it would make her way too cynical. It's not like this is an unhealthy hobby or anything. Clark is writing for people he couldn't save. He's not asking her to understand it. He's not asking her to do it with him. He's not even demanding that she embrace it. I don't get why you see this as such a detriment.

And this is where I think the criticism of this issue and this series becomes way too asinine. So much of it is based on petty details that are often variations among writers. We get that all the time in comics. The way Geoff Johns writes Superman is different from the one Greg Pak writes. But it's still the same character. You can't single out a few panels from a book and make sweeping generalizations. That's the kind of logic only creationists use. I'm not saying this issue has its flaws, but those flaws really aren't that major in the grand scheme of things.

if in the pages it wasn't clear that she doesn't like Superman writing, I don't know what to say. she is even rude to him.

the variation of WW writing is too bad and is not fair to the character that azz build and many other writers did very well on the past.

They had already broken up before that issue of JL fyi. We don't know what actually caused their breakup, but she was just further distancing herself from Steve by requesting a new liaison in that issue. It's implied in an earlier issue of JL however, that there was some trouble about her failing to say "I love you" back to him when he says it (at least that's what I read it as). Anyway, my point is that you can't say with certainty that she broke up with him because he can get hurt. While it is one way of looking at the scenes in JL, it certainly isn't the only credible interpretation.

As for this issue, while I was still able to enjoy it I did have some of the same issues with characterization that others have mentioned.

well everything I said is on page and is pretty easy to take my conclusion with base on that. yeah, she already broke with him before, but this time she even fires him from JL for emotional reasons. her emotional reasons. It's not like johns is any subtitle about it

Oh, he will have to compromise as well. I expect him to start seeing her point of view as well, of course it shouldn't be just one sided. I think this book has failed to do this so far because we basically have arcs all centered around Superman or his villains.

To see him adjusting to her life, we need to have stories set in her world as well.
If Diana has to understand what it means to him to be human, he has as well to understand what it means to her, so far he hasn't. And he has to understand also her other roles, that of god of war and of queen. One thing I think he should never ask to her is when she is Diana Prince to change her behaviour, her personality, that I don't think she would accept.

And anyway it's not like she has to have a full time job if she doesn't want one, and probably with all her roles she would not even have the time for that, nor she will have necessary to settle down in Metropolis. With Bruce and Cyborg's help they can make her identity credible anyway. And there are not only human resources at their disposition. To make her not recognizable even without her putting as much effort as Clark they can use other tools, what about some magical artifacts from Hephaestus? And I imagine also Clark can have some kryptonian artifact which could help.

Plus, for them distance is nothing, and since their relationship is out, they can stay together also as Superman and Wonder Woman. I think it is wrong to think that their relationship has necessarily to be a traditional and normal one. They have different options like I have said. To accept this would be Clark's compromise.

Diana Prince's ID can be fake, they can make it up so that Diana can stay with him when he is Clark Kent and he doesn't have to give up on his secret identity, but at the same time theirs wouldn't be a traditional relationship, she would have her freedom, she wouldn't be trapped in that identity, and Clark would have to accept that.

so clark life won't change, because understand each other point of view is not a life game changer. but WW life will have to change a lot for her live a romance with superman.

They would still continue to live together, but people wouldn't know that. I was thinking at something like this: They have a house together in Metropolis, ok, but Diana Prince is said to work in London, for example. Fake ID and all do their part. For Clark's friends, Clark and Diana see each other not very often. Sometimes Clark goes to visit her and stays in London for some time, sometimes it's Diana who visits him and stays in Metropolis for a while, but she doesn't work there, so no need to fake she does. In true they see each other basically every day. Some days it's Diana who flies to Metropolis at night, sometimes it's Clark who flies to London, or they meet at the Fortress or where they want to.

The ID is basically for Clark's friends who live in Metropolis, while in London Diana can continue with her life. If someone tries to investigate and does it informatically, thanks to Bruce and Cyborg there are fake documents online. If someones goes there, he/she will see Diana living her life (in London it's not like they recognize her as WW when she doesn't wear her costume. Like I said I think she has already some fake ID of sort, because she has already one or maybe more houses). She could be said to work for Hessia, for example, so that in case of an investigation, Hessia can confirm that and inform Diana that someone is suspecting something.
And then we could have a story of someone suspecting and as usually it is with Superman protecting his identity, at the end Diana's ID will be safe, they'll invent something so that it will.

Another option: instead of working in London Diana could be a volunteer in war zones. In Justice League we already see her there helping people as WW, but she could go there as Diana Prince as well. Plus, with her going there also her being now god of war could be explored. This job of her would be very much true but still something she wants to do and that she would do anyway and that would explain her supposed long absences from Metropolis (even if her and Clark see each other anyway thanks to their powers). (Basically she helps there as Diana Prince, but when and if situations get tough, she switches to WW).

So, still living together, only not always in the same place. That is why I said theirs would be a not traditional relationship.
It's not like similar relationship don't exist, though, there are people who are married but still work in different cities and see each other only on week ends or even less (but in true Clark and Diana are only apparentely distant from each other, because they can see each other anyway whenever they want just by flying in seconds around the world and they can also settle together every night and return to their separate lives only in the morning xD).

Oh, and Clark would even have an excuse ready for when he will be away because of Superman, something like this: 'I went to London to visit Diana' xD

WW voleering as Diana at war zones is asking for her ID be discovered.

and long period away from each other is asking for people start asking questions about it.

[misslane]

So, still living together, only not always in the same place. That is why I said theirs would be a not traditional relationship.

Your description of what Diana would have to do to maintain the illusion of a real human life still sounds like a lifestyle that is largely incompatible with who Diana is at her core. It's a life that would require constant vigilance and lies to sustain.

It's not like similar relationship don't exist, though, there are people who are married but still work in different cities and see each other only on week ends or even less (but in true Clark and Diana are only apparentely distant from each other, because they can see each other anyway whenever they want just by flying in seconds around the world and they can also settle together every night and return to their separate lives only in the morning xD).

It isn't a question of can Clark and Diana live their lives this way. For me, it's a question of whether it's the kind of life they want and will be happy with in the long term.

[BlackFeath]

Your description of what Diana would have to do to maintain the illusion of a real human life still sounds like a lifestyle that is largely incompatible with who Diana is at her core. It's a life that would require constant vigilance and lies to sustain.

It isn't a question of can Clark and Diana live their lives this way. For me, it's a question of whether it's the kind of life they want and will be happy with in the long term.

Well in this case another question could be: Would they be more happy breaking up, not having any kind of life together with the woman/man they love?

I don't think that people who have to live separated because of work are completely happy, that given the choice to live together they wouldn't take it, but probably they are happy to have each other anyway even if they can't always live together, even if they have to compromise, even if they have to make sacrifies to stay together.
'Love conquers all'.

And anyway, ok, I'm probably going off topic but...It's not like Lois and Clark didn't have to make any sacrifies, eh. For one Lois was married with Clark Kent, but no one knew he was Superman and that so she was married also with him, plus, Clark even while being married with her couldn't give up being Superman and so he even stayed away for months, without her knowing when he would have returned, ecc... I bet they would have preferred to live a normal life. Fact is they couldn't but they still stayed together.

If that relationship worked for so many years, I don't understand why the difficulties that Clark and Diana may encounter are considered so much greater. They are not. Their relationship can work, and the sacrifies they will have to make for it to work will make it 'even more precious', to quote them from #12.

[BlackFeath]

if in the pages it wasn't clear that she doesn't like Superman writing, I don't know what to say. she is even rude to him.

the variation of WW writing is too bad and is not fair to the character that azz build and many other writers did very well on the past.



well everything I said is on page and is pretty easy to take my conclusion with base on that. yeah, she already broke with him before, but this time she even fires him from JL for emotional reasons. her emotional reasons. It's not like johns is any subtitle about it



so clark life won't change, because understand each other point of view is not a life game changer. but WW life will have to change a lot for her live a romance with superman.

WW voleering as Diana at war zones is asking for her ID be discovered.

Why?

and long period away from each other is asking for people start asking questions about it.

It's not like it is so uncommon. Even my mother last year for work had to live away from home and returned only on the week end.
I know other people who have to do the same for work, they even live in different continents and still have a family.
For Clark and Diana it would be simpler than for them.