Superman Wonder Woman #13 Spoilers/Discussion

[Lax]

I think part of the problem with this issue (and with other Clark/Diana 'date' type interactions) is that the ONLY thing we see is the conflict.

I didn't like how either of them were written in some of the scenes. Clark likes to write so it's important to Clark that he should be happy, even if that means being inconsiderate to someone else for an hour? That's selfish. Diana, on the other hand, has a right to be unhappy about waiting but came off as very shrewish about it, especially when he's 'already explained this' before. He comes off as rude and selfish in that scene, she comes off as bitchy and stupid.

And she reacts again in a sharp, and overly bitchy manner.

With female characters "bitchy" is often synonymous with "strong".

If she's consistently deferring her desires to cater to his and she's sweet and polite while doing so that would be interpreted as another case of a woman being submissive to a man and feminist would have a problem with it. Pick your poison.

Diana, at least, gets to stress something I haven't seen from Clark at all - 'if it makes you happy...'

Every time I see the two of them getting together for something, it's all about how Diana is adjusting to Clark's life. She doesn't 'understand,' she doesn't 'accept', she doesn't 'get it.'

But she's trying. Every single time it's portrayed, she's putting out the effort, trying to adapt to his world and his ways because she loves him.

That sounds good and I'd like to see that, but the issue with this is that Superman's flaws are cherished while Wonder Woman's flaws are not.

Superman's flaws are that he lets his compassion cloud his judgement, too trusting, naive, etc. Wonder Woman's flaws are that she's impatient, overly violent, willing to kill, etc.

So, when it comes time for the couple to learn from each other guess who needs enlightenment? Bingo. There have been opportunities for Superman to learn from her but because writers find his flaws endearing they don't capitalize on it.

For example, when trying to decide whether or not to kill Doomsday Superman didn't consult her at all. Why not? That would have been a golden opportunity for writers to have her teach him that compassion taken to ridiculous extremes is not necessarily a good thing.

Even this issue, she told him why stopping in the middle of battle to build a wall that would fail was a terrible idea but Superman wouldn't listen to her because emotionally he couldn't handle the truth. That horrible idea was never portrayed as something he should learn from in the future. He never acknowledged that she was right, just dug in his heels and said "Well, I don't agree.".

Wondy has her flaws but when she is right the writers need to actually portray her as such and not shy away from it because they dislike her side of the coin.

On the other hand, most of what we see of Clark tends to be (a) disapproval of her lifestyle and her ways and (b) him trying to shoehorn her into his way of life. I want to see more of him trying to adjust to her ways as well to counterbalance the repeated 'Diana trying to be 'normal' trope.'

He insists that they walk because it's what a normal date is for him. And again, she tries while he makes her stand there in the rain and repeatedly does what makes him happy with no consideration for her at all.

I'd like to see that as well, but at the same time he can't adjust to her lifestyle if she doesn't invite him into her life.

Superman took her to that dinner in Smallville, he gave her a key to the Fortress of Solitude, a key to his apartment, taught her his kryptonian language and gave her a kryptonian gift. (plant/pet)

Wonder Woman is severely lacking in this department and considering the rather intense hatred her sisters have for men I don't blame her for not wanting to subject him to the joys of amazonian culture back home. But that's not Superman's fault either.

[Xarek]

I agree with Gaelforce's assessments. Conflict for conflict's sake does not make the narrative work for the better. The more and more I read the issue, the less and less I like the SM/WW depictions. Such was the effort to try and highlight their supposed "differences", that the characterizations got skewered to unrecognizable proportions. There is already enough conflict with the threats and opposing forces they face. No need to overplay that hand.
They have these two good, lore-rich, super powered heroes to play around with. I don't know why some writers have some much trouble actually using them as such. An entertaining plot thread of them together can really thrive without the need to turn Wonder Woman into Red Sonja or Superman into Captain America.

[BlackFeath]

I agree with Gaelforce's assessments. Conflict for conflict's sake does not make the narrative work for the better. The more and more I read the issue, the less and less I like the SM/WW depictions. Such was the effort to try and highlight their supposed "differences", that the characterizations got skewered to unrecognizable proportions. There is already enough conflict with the threats and opposing forces they face. No need to overplay that hand.
They have these two good, lore-rich, super powered heroes to play around with. I don't know why some writers have some much trouble actually using them as such. An entertaining plot thread of them together can really thrive without the need to turn Wonder Woman into Red Sonja or Superman into Captain America.

Eh, I completely agree. Stop creating forced conflicts by changing their personalities... Instead of writing the characters to accomodate a plot, write a plot keeping them in character u.u

I personally think characterization is the most important think in comics. These characters are iconic, it is not like other stories where the characters are specifically created for a story, and so their personality develops together with the story, and they are always written by the same writer who created them.
These characters have been here for a long time and they will continue to be. They can change a bit, they can have different stories, they can grow in a story, but I don't think that for the sake of a story these characters should ever become so unrecognizable...
In this issue there wasn't Wonder Woman, I really don't recognize her u.u

It's stupid to create conflicts between her and Clark just for conflict's sake by taking from her traits she shares with Clark and making her another person u.u

Compassion, believing in people even too much, sometimes fearing to have let down people but never giving up, always giving others a second chance, ecc... These traits Wonder Woman has too, these are things she shares with Superman and so that she can understand very much... Even Johns in Cheetah's arc recognized this, even if at the time, except for that one arc, he had been writing an OOC Diana (but now hopefully this has changed...).

They are different in other kind of things, not in this. So why create conflicts on this thing? And I agree with Gael...why only conflicts? Why can't they be showed as having a good time together as well?

[MarvelMaster616]

I've heard this argument about so many relationships, both within comic books and in real life. It's all, "We should all just be in a relationship where we can be ourselves." That's all well and good, but it's only half the issue here.

Human beings are social creatures. We naturally seek out others and form relationships with them, romantic and non-romantic alike. So whenever I hear criticisms from those who say Wonder Woman and Superman shouldn't be together because they can't be themselves, these critics might as well say that they should never be with anybody because that would somehow disrupt who they are. Well here's the problem with that. Who we are is driven largely by our relationships and we rarely stay the same when we form new relationships, be they romantic or not. We're seeing that with Superman and Wonder Woman. Being with each other has led them to grow, taking on new challenges and learning new things about each other and themselves. That's what happens in all relationships and so far, the challenges Superman and Wonder Woman have faced have been good for them.

This series has shown them steadily embrace one another into their lives. Diana took Clark to her favorite club when she's never taken a man with her before. Clark has shared with Diana why he does what he does in a way he can't really share with anyone else. It's easy to forget that their relationship is still new. It's an ongoing process. It's not always smooth. The battle against Zod and the clash with Diana's Olympian family have shown that. But they keep developing.

With this in mind, it shows that the idea of just "being who you are" in a relationship is only half the picture here. The other half involves being who we strive to be. Superman and Wonder Woman are not static characters. They have aspirations. They're striving to be someone greater than who they are now. And it's important that they love who they strive to be. They've shared so much with each other so far and I think this issue showed that they do love both who they are and who they're trying to be. There are still obstacles. There always are in any relationship. It's an ongoing process and that process is continuing in this issue.

[Blacksun]

Superman's flaws are that he lets his compassion cloud his judgement, too trusting, naive, etc. Wonder Woman's flaws are that she's impatient, overly violent, willing to kill, etc.

this completely contradicts WW character in Azz run. WW and SM are more alike than the writers would want so they came with this 180º crap that make superman looks heroic and WW as brute

I've heard this argument about so many relationships, both within comic books and in real life. It's all, "We should all just be in a relationship where we can be ourselves." That's all well and good, but it's only half the issue here.

Human beings are social creatures. We naturally seek out others and form relationships with them, romantic and non-romantic alike. So whenever I hear criticisms from those who say Wonder Woman and Superman shouldn't be together because they can't be themselves, these critics might as well say that they should never be with anybody because that would somehow disrupt who they are. Well here's the problem with that. Who we are is driven largely by our relationships and we rarely stay the same when we form new relationships, be they romantic or not. We're seeing that with Superman and Wonder Woman. Being with each other has led them to grow, taking on new challenges and learning new things about each other and themselves. That's what happens in all relationships and so far, the challenges Superman and Wonder Woman have faced have been good for them.

This series has shown them steadily embrace one another into their lives. Diana took Clark to her favorite club when she's never taken a man with her before. Clark has shared with Diana why he does what he does in a way he can't really share with anyone else. It's easy to forget that their relationship is still new. It's an ongoing process. It's not always smooth. The battle against Zod and the clash with Diana's Olympian family have shown that. But they keep developing.

With this in mind, it shows that the idea of just "being who you are" in a relationship is only half the picture here. The other half involves being who we strive to be. Superman and Wonder Woman are not static characters. They have aspirations. They're striving to be someone greater than who they are now. And it's important that they love who they strive to be. They've shared so much with each other so far and I think this issue showed that they do love both who they are and who they're trying to be. There are still obstacles. There always are in any relationship. It's an ongoing process and that process is continuing in this issue.

Superman and WW are completely incompatible. If i can't be me in a relationship, I won't stay on it. I won't nullify me for another person, it is not worth.
One thing is adapt to someone else, other is cease to be me, do what I like, no do what I don't like.

[BlackFeath]

Superman and WW are completely incompatible. If i can't be me in a relationship, I won't stay on it. I won't nullify me for another person, it is not worth.
One thing is adapt to someone else, other is cease to be me, do what I like, no do what I don't like.

Mmm, to me they end up seeming incompatible only because and when writers change the personality of one of them, like you have said:

this completely contradicts WW character in Azz run. WW and SM are more alike than the writers would want so they came with this 180º crap that make superman looks heroic and WW as brute

[MarvelMaster616]

Superman and WW are completely incompatible. If i can't be me in a relationship, I won't stay on it. I won't nullify me for another person, it is not worth.
One thing is adapt to someone else, other is cease to be me, do what I like, no do what I don't like.

I think you're painting an inaccurate picture with two extremes. Being in a relationship is not an either/or prospect. Anybody who has ever been with someone for a long time understands this. Superman isn't asking Wonder Woman to "nullify" herself. She's not asking him to do the same either. She says it herself in this issue. She's happy if what Superman does makes him happy. Superman and Wonder Woman have not had to significantly change who they are or what they do to be together. They can still function as heroes and civilians perfectly well, as shown in their respective solo books. That is not at all consistent with the notion of being "completely incompatible."

Like I said, it's not enough to simply be who they are. They have to aspire to be something greater. As heroes, that's something they did for years before they ever got together. I think the flashback in this issue showed where they were early on and where they are now. There's still a lot of room for them to grow, but to say they're completely incompatible misses the very premise of their relationship and strong relationships in general.

[Heasensy32]

based on tv troped dynamic alignments Superman is the blue oni, Wonder Woman is the red oni. Superman is lawful good and Wondy is chaotic good. Clark is a hope bringing humanitarian that can come across as passive and enforcing while being decisively strict and calm. Wondy is a passionate and heroically fearless warrior who fights with her heart out and thrives for truth while staying loving and fun filled.


I think some of you guys put down this pairings because both parties are different from one another. Thats why i think they're perfect for each other they can learn from each other and fill out each other.

[misslane]

based on tv troped dynamic alignments Superman is the blue oni, Wonder Woman is the red oni. Superman is lawful good and Wondy is chaotic good. Clark is a hope bringing humanitarian that can come across as passive and enforcing while being decisively strict and calm. Wondy is a passionate and heroically fearless warrior who fights with her heart out and thrives for truth while staying loving and fun filled.


I think some of you guys put down this pairings because both parties are different from one another. Thats why i think they're perfect for each other they can learn from each other and fill out each other.

That's all well and good, but the clash that manifests most often is between Diana and Clark's need to engage in human life as a human. Project into the future. Eventually, Diana will have to either develop a full fledged secret identity of her own, or Clark will have to abandon his. From this issue alone we learn that Diana and Clark have repeatedly conversed, possibly even argued, over his approach to writing and reporting. Sometimes differences like that can be transcended, but sometimes familiarity just breeds contempt. The fact that Diana still nags or makes sour faces when Clark expresses his interest and compassion for humans suggests that it is something that she struggles to tolerate. Also, the perfect dynamic you've described based on Diana being fun, passionate, and heroic as well as truth seeking sums up Lois Lane quite well. Bonus is Lois fits into Clark's human life and gets his reporter instinct.

[Gaelforce]

That's all well and good, but the clash that manifests most often is between Diana and Clark's need to engage in human life as a human. Project into the future. Eventually, Diana will have to either develop a full fledged secret identity of her own, or Clark will have to abandon his. From this issue alone we learn that Diana and Clark have repeatedly conversed, possibly even argued, over his approach to writing and reporting. Sometimes differences like that can be transcended, but sometimes familiarity just breeds contempt. The fact that Diana still nags or makes sour faces when Clark expresses his interest and compassion for humans suggests that it is something that she struggles to tolerate. Also, the perfect dynamic you've described based on Diana being fun, passionate, and heroic as well as truth seeking sums up Lois Lane quite well. Bonus is Lois fits into Clark's human life and gets his reporter instinct.

<puts on the moderator hat>

This is a discussion of Superman/Wonder Woman 13 and NOT a discussion of 'Wonder Woman versus Lois Lane.' There have been plenty of those threads, so let's not derail this one.

[BlackFeath]

That's all well and good, but the clash that manifests most often is between Diana and Clark's need to engage in human life as a human. Project into the future. Eventually, Diana will have to either develop a full fledged secret identity of her own, or Clark will have to abandon his. From this issue alone we learn that Diana and Clark have repeatedly conversed, possibly even argued, over his approach to writing and reporting. Sometimes differences like that can be transcended, but sometimes familiarity just breeds contempt. The fact that Diana still nags or makes sour faces when Clark expresses his interest and compassion for humans suggests that it is something that she struggles to tolerate. Also, the perfect dynamic you've described based on Diana being fun, passionate, and heroic as well as truth seeking sums up Lois Lane quite well. Bonus is Lois fits into Clark's human life and gets his reporter instinct.

Fact is, when Wonder Woman is written well, she is interested and compassionate toward humanity. Take this from Justice League as an example:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...29+034-009.jpg







If Wonder Woman was really like she has been depicted in this issue, I would have hardly become her fan. Fact is: she is not. She is wonderful and so I hate very much when she is depicted so out of character.

She is compassionate, she always puts others first, she always gives everyone a second chance, even those who don't seem to deserve it, she always believes in people, in humanity.

The scene above with Lex is an example, but she has done so lots of times, both pre and after the new 52. Considering only Azzarello’s run she has turned many of her enemies in allies.

Hera for example. She turned her mother into a clay statue and the amazons in snakes, she tried to kill Zola, who Diana was protecting, and her unborn son, then Apollo took her powers away. Hera was powerless and without any place to go. What did Diana do?
She gave her a home, and not only that, just by showing kindness and staying with her she made her change so much that Hera turned into an ally and when she regained her powers she even saved her life.

Another example is the minotaur. When she was 13 Ares made her fight against the Minotaur. She managed to defeat him and Ares told her to kill him. She refused going against his request. spoilers:

10 years later she met the minotaur again. The First Born ordered him to kill her: he didn't because he remembered she had shown him mercy as a young girl.

end of spoilers

Other spoiler from the last issue of the run:

spoilers:

We discover at the end that Athena had been hiding inside Zola. At the end Athena is going to 'kill off Zola' to take completely over. What does Diana do? She begs her to spare her friend and in the process she expresses how much humanity and being human and her friendship with Zola means to her. Athena, at last, leaves Zola's body.

end of spoilers

In these links there are some images of the scene:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...29+035-019.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...29+035-020.jpg

Sorry if it seems I vented up too much...It's just that I hate when Diana is depicted like that... That is not Wonder Woman, and I am really sad that because of these issues where she is depicted like this the people who don't follow and know her from other comics can't do anything but end up thinking she is such a horrible character when in true that is not her.

Anyway, I'm probably going off topic since this is Superman's forum, so, if someone is interested here there are also other 'wonderful scenes' from different runs: http://community.comicbookresources....-Appreciation!

If she is written well, I firmly believe her romance with Clark could work. The problem is when she is written out of character.
She values very much humanity, and she always wants to be human.

She has not a secret identity, that's true, but I don't think that will be a true problem. She can have a Diana Prince ID without going against who she is, she doesn't truly have to act like another person, she can be herself without revealing she is Wonder Woman just like she has done till now to stay with Clark Kent, and they can also stay together as Superman and Wonder Woman and also go where they want to just as Kal and Diana, in places where no one knows them.

They can do all these things till when, one day, Clark will have to abandon his secret identity since he will 'outlive' it.

[misslane]

<puts on the moderator hat>

This is a discussion of Superman/Wonder Woman 13 and NOT a discussion of 'Wonder Woman versus Lois Lane.' There have been plenty of those threads, so let's not derail this one.

I understand. Let me take Lois out of the equation to be more clear. I suppose it's just a shame, as seen in this issue, that Clark has to explain his feelings about writing and reporting so many times without being understood by the woman he loves. Hopefully, we'll never have to see the same conversation again. Diana seemed to get it eventually, so it would be strange if it was brought up again under anything other than extraordinarily new or extreme circumstances.

If she is written well, I firmly believe her romance with Clark could work. The problem is when she is written out of character.
She values very much humanity, and she always wants to be human.

The more I read Superman/Wonder Woman stories, the more it seems like writers feel like they have to contrive or manufacture conflict in order to create drama. Diana, unfortunately, tends to be the character who is manipulated most in order to get the job done.

She has not a secret identity, that's true, but I don't think that will be a true problem. She can have a Diana Prince ID without going against who she is, she doesn't truly have to act like another person, she can be herself without revealing she is Wonder Woman just like she has done till now to stay with Clark Kent, and they can also stay together as Superman and Wonder Woman and also go where they want to just as Kal and Diana, in places where no one knows them.

I think that sort of arrangement can work for the kind of relationship they have now. However, if they ever tend to live together or get married, then Diana is going to need a real human identity to interact with Clark's human life. Of course, there's another alternative: Clark could give up on Clark. I don't think either Clark or Diana should have to go to such extremes to make their relationship work.

They can do all these things till when, one day, Clark will have to abandon his secret identity since he will 'outlive' it.

I think one day Superman will outlive his Clark Kent identity, but I don't think he'll ever outlive wanting a human life. He can simply create new human identities for himself.

[BlackFeath]

I understand. Let me take Lois out of the equation to be more clear. I suppose it's just a shame, as seen in this issue, that Clark has to explain his feelings about writing and reporting so many times without being understood by the woman he loves. Hopefully, we'll never have to see the same conversation again. Diana seemed to get it eventually, so it would be strange if it was brought up again under anything other than extraordinarily new or extreme circumstances.

The more I read Superman/Wonder Woman stories, the more it seems like writers feel like they have to contrive or manufacture conflict in order to create drama. Diana, unfortunately, tends to be the character who is manipulated most in order to get the job done.

That's just poor writing for me.

I think that sort of arrangement can work for the kind of relationship they have now. However, if they ever tend to live together or get married, then Diana is going to need a real human identity to interact with Clark's human life. Of course, there's another alternative: Clark could give up on Clark. I don't think either Clark or Diana should have to go to such extremes to make their relationship work.

With Diana Prince ID I meant creating that identity more officially than she has now, of course, so that she exists. I guess she won't have many problems to do that, Bruce for example could make it for her (like he has done pre new 52).
Even after she has this identity, with continuing to be herself I mean she won't start to pretend to have another personality, ecc..., like Clark does, she won't truly need it. To be more clear this what I mean:



Having an ID like this is not really something new for her character. It's not something that will be suddenly made for her to be with Superman, changing her after 70+ years. She has had a secret identity in the past pre new 52. Even when she first appeared she had one.

I think one day Superman will outlive his Clark Kent identity, but I don't think he'll ever outlive wanting a human life. He can simply create new human identities for himself.

On this I don't know, I guess it depends on how much the world and him will be changed by then, and if he will want to create another identity. Clark Kent is the identity with whom he has grown up...once he is dead will he want to have another identity? I honestly don't know. Either way I don't think it will be a problem for them.

[misslane]

Even after she has this identity, with continuing to be herself I mean she won't start to pretend to have another personality, ecc..., like Clark does, she won't truly need it. To be more clear this what I mean:

Diana will truly need a secret identity if she is going to share a human life with Clark. She will need a real job and real friends so she can remain more than a suspicious enigma to the people in Clark's life. If her secret identity, for example, involves working for the government, acting as a business consultant, or any other profession, she's going to need to have some kind of real connections. Her secret identity can't be flimsy fiction. She's going to have to live it and maintain it, which is a life changing decision to make all in the name of love.

Having an ID like this is not really something new for her character. It's not something that will be suddenly made for her to be with Superman, changing her after 70+ years. She has had a secret identity in the past pre new 52. Even when she first appeared she had one.

Diana has had a secret identity in the past, but I'm talking about the compromises this Diana will make in this new continuity. It would make me uncomfortable if Diana chose to develop a dual identity purely for the benefit of fitting into her beloved's life.

Clark Kent is the identity with whom he has grown up...once he is dead will he want to have another identity? I honestly don't know. Either way I don't think it will be a problem for them.

All I know is that I wouldn't want to imagine any version of Superman who at any age didn't want to find a way to live part of his life as a human.

[Blacksun]

I think you're painting an inaccurate picture with two extremes. Being in a relationship is not an either/or prospect. Anybody who has ever been with someone for a long time understands this. Superman isn't asking Wonder Woman to "nullify" herself. She's not asking him to do the same either. She says it herself in this issue. She's happy if what Superman does makes him happy. Superman and Wonder Woman have not had to significantly change who they are or what they do to be together. They can still function as heroes and civilians perfectly well, as shown in their respective solo books. That is not at all consistent with the notion of being "completely incompatible."

Like I said, it's not enough to simply be who they are. They have to aspire to be something greater. As heroes, that's something they did for years before they ever got together. I think the flashback in this issue showed where they were early on and where they are now. There's still a lot of room for them to grow, but to say they're completely incompatible misses the very premise of their relationship and strong relationships in general.

Clark is not asking for her nullify herself, but she keep doing it. how long can she be happy for what makes HIM happy, not her? something that she can't understand and clearly doesn't like that clark aspect. Diana civil life is nothing like clark's one.

I see little evolution from both.