Superman Wonder Woman #13 Spoilers/Discussion

[Sacred Knight]

The funny thing is the absolute only mention of power in regards to anything the two have said or acted toward one another would be in Justice League #3 (revisited in this flashback), and its Superman attracted to her power. Now I'm not saying she's not attracted his power likewise to some degree, chances are she is, but its never been explicitly stated as anything she considers remotely important, so the idea that she's dating him because of his power is just patently false. Its a criticism founded on absolutely nothing tangibly written.

[Superlad93]

It turns her into a super power gold digger.

Hahah I don't agree with this as a factual statement, but as an idea this would make one great character. Superwoman is pretty much this, but I'd like to see it played less serous and more satirical. Hmmm.....maybe a character set on Earth-me world of the Just? Watch out Chris Kent, they only want you for all that power and that shiny '$' of yours!

[MarvelMaster616]

How can a story that focuses on a core difference between the two characters not indicate there is a significant point of contention? Usually, when a difference is just a difference rather than a source of conflict, it is presented as not causing conflict. This issue definitely suggested that one of the couple's core differences repeatedly caused tension in the relationship.

Not sure I see your point here. It's like you're asking the story to prove a negative. You're setting up an unreasonable standard by which any conflict has to be specifically defined as NOT a conflict. That's just not reasonable. And saying that their core differences "repeatedly" cause tension is too much of a generalization. This is one scene in one issue. You're construing any type of small disagreement, which every couple has, as a much bigger problem. That's simply not reasonable. I get the sense you're looking for flaws to dissect and ignoring the possibility that Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship could be mature and strong.

Also, this disagreement didn't stop them from going out on a date. So there's that.

I don't find this sort of conflict even remotely compelling, especially the way it was handled in this issue. It feels harsh and contrived rather than compelling and organic. Over and over again, Superman and Wonder Woman stories use this particular conflict to create drama. Diana's strategic, controlled warrior nature is consistently contrasted with Clark's more compassionate, emotional alien/human nature. It's become so consistent a theme that it now reads as a fundamental clash of personalities rather than complementary differences that add texture to the relationship. Neither of them seems to care to adapt or accept their partner's needs and preferences without significant pressure or argument. At this point in their relationship, if I'm to believe they understand and accept each other's differences and flaws, I'd expect them to be able to handle disagreements that stem from their core differences with more self-awareness and grace.

Again, you're being a little petty here. Superman and Wonder Woman are two different individuals with their own unique personality traits. Like any couple, they're going to have distinct traits. Just because they conduct themselves differently doesn't mean they can't work. This issue actually did a good job of showing how well they work despite their differences. A strong couple finds ways to challenge one another and that's what Superman and Wonder Woman have done throughout this series. It has caused conflicts, but it has also made them stronger and helped them grow. If they didn't accept each other's differences, why would they even go out on a date in the first place? It's like you're holding them to a standard that you know they can't meet. And I think that's missing the point. I don't know if you're a big Clark/Lois fan or something, but you're focusing too much on differences and not enough on how these two are making it work.

I disagree. I found the way the issue established the key differences to be tone deaf and inorganic.

That's you're opinion. You're entitled to it. That doesn't make it more or less valid than anyone else's.

[Lax]

Everything about her face and body language.

She was smiling while she said it.

[misslane]

Not sure I see your point here. It's like you're asking the story to prove a negative. You're setting up an unreasonable standard by which any conflict has to be specifically defined as NOT a conflict. That's just not reasonable. And saying that their core differences "repeatedly" cause tension is too much of a generalization. This is one scene in one issue. You're construing any type of small disagreement, which every couple has, as a much bigger problem. That's simply not reasonable. I get the sense you're looking for flaws to dissect and ignoring the possibility that Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship could be mature and strong.

I get the sense that you are ignoring the flaws in Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship because you'd prefer to see it as mature and strong. I'm not asking the story to prove anything. I was merely pointing out a glaring contradiction in your own statement. You said the story focused on the couple's core differences yet bizarrely claimed it didn't indicate there were any significant points of contention between them. I used the word "repeatedly" because the core difference showcased in this issue caused tension in three separate scenes: the flashback, the apartment, and the taxis. Each moment of tension was rooted in the significant point of conflict between Clark's "do everything you can to help the weak" nature and Diana's "don't do anything to help the weak if it distracts from the mission and discourages independent growth" nature.

Also, this disagreement didn't stop them from going out on a date. So there's that.

There's what? Evidence that Clark and Diana are the type of dysfunctional couple that repeatedly has disagreements and misunderstandings rooted in the same core conflict because they never actually find common ground or confront it head on?

Again, you're being a little petty here. Superman and Wonder Woman are two different individuals with their own unique personality traits. Like any couple, they're going to have distinct traits. Just because they conduct themselves differently doesn't mean they can't work. This issue actually did a good job of showing how well they work despite their differences. A strong couple finds ways to challenge one another and that's what Superman and Wonder Woman have done throughout this series. It has caused conflicts, but it has also made them stronger and helped them grow. If they didn't accept each other's differences, why would they even go out on a date in the first place? It's like you're holding them to a standard that you know they can't meet. And I think that's missing the point. I don't know if you're a big Clark/Lois fan or something, but you're focusing too much on differences and not enough on how these two are making it work.

I think you're see this relationship through rose colored glasses. I didn't see any evidence that conflict inspired growth in this issue; I saw three separate examples of the same conflict causing similar problems for Clark and Diana. Why did they go on their date despite their differences? Because, like a lot of dysfunctional couples, they refuse to deal with fundamental conflicts in their relationship because it's easier to ignore them and hope they go away. It's the kind of relationship that builds tension and resentment over time until it is confronted with a trial that truly tests them and forces them to deal with their problems. I am unable to focus on how these two are making it work because this issue showed them fighting over the same core difference three separate times, which means they aren't making it work. Superman and Wonder Woman keep putting temporary band-aids on the problem hoping these small disagreements will either stay small or fade entirely, and it's not working.

That's you're opinion. You're entitled to it. That doesn't make it more or less valid than anyone else's.

I never said otherwise.

[Blacksun]

The funny thing is the absolute only mention of power in regards to anything the two have said or acted toward one another would be in Justice League #3 (revisited in this flashback), and its Superman attracted to her power. Now I'm not saying she's not attracted his power likewise to some degree, chances are she is, but its never been explicitly stated as anything she considers remotely important, so the idea that she's dating him because of his power is just patently false. Its a criticism founded on absolutely nothing tangibly written.

Superman just said she was strong, it was a dude to another dude or a girl to another girl no one would say he/she was attracted.
But power is important for both, that is the main reason they are together. I really don't see why they are together with so much differences between them

[Sacred Knight]

It was still more of a nod than Wonder Woman's ever given about being twitterpated by his strength. That's the amusing part. In regards to her feelings for him, physical prowess has been absolutely non-existant, nary even warranting a mention, yet people are still trying to push it. Its ridiculous on its head. That power is important for both is again, completely and utterly false and without a shred of physical evidence in ANY book. Not in JL. Not during Trinity War. Not during Forever Evil. Not in her guest appearances in Superman. Not in Superman/Wonder Woman. You guys are simply making that up, period.

[DochaDocha]

Maybe there needs to be a character who says, "I really was attracted to Superman, but then I learned he has all these funky powers, and then I decided that's not for me." I guess Lana comes closest.

[Blacksun]

Maybe there needs to be a character who says, "I really was attracted to Superman, but then I learned he has all these funky powers, and then I decided that's not for me." I guess Lana comes closest.

it's Lana thing.

[DochaDocha]

it's Lana thing.

Not universally. Pre-Crisis Lana was Lois' rival for Supes, and Post-Crisis (after some stupid retconning; I believe we can blame Chuck Austen for this) was also into the guy. STAS Lana also was hot for Supes. At least Superman III Lana was weirded out by Evil Superman when he tried to make a move on her. But more to the point, I don't think there ever was continuous (i.e. from start to end in respective continuity) version that actually rejected Superman because of his powers.

[misslane]

It was still more of a nod than Wonder Woman's ever given about being twitterpated by his strength. That's the amusing part. In regards to her feelings for him, physical prowess has been absolutely non-existant, nary even warranting a mention, yet people are still trying to push it. Its ridiculous on its head. That power is important for both is again, completely and utterly false and without a shred of physical evidence in ANY book. Not in JL. Not during Trinity War. Not during Forever Evil. Not in her guest appearances in Superman. Not in Superman/Wonder Woman. You guys are simply making that up, period.

Do you think either Clark or Diana would have ever pursued the other if each wasn't powerful, strong, immortal, etc.? If, for example, Clark Kent interviewed Wonder Woman before she knew who he really was, would she have been drawn to him? If Clark came across Diana dancing in a club and didn't recognize her, do you think they would have fallen in love? I think strength and invulnerability are crucial to the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship. Clearly, it's not the one and only thing that makes the relationship attractive to Clark and Diana, but I don't think it could ever have begun or survived without it.

[Sacred Knight]

Of course. There's already a precendent set that both Superman and Wonder Woman can just as easily be attracted to normal humans. No reason to think if one didn't have powers and they were to meet that it couldn't happen there. The only question is in what circumstances if any would they meet to become acquainted with one another in such a scenario.

[Blacksun]

It was still more of a nod than Wonder Woman's ever given about being twitterpated by his strength. That's the amusing part. In regards to her feelings for him, physical prowess has been absolutely non-existant, nary even warranting a mention, yet people are still trying to push it. Its ridiculous on its head. That power is important for both is again, completely and utterly false and without a shred of physical evidence in ANY book. Not in JL. Not during Trinity War. Not during Forever Evil. Not in her guest appearances in Superman. Not in Superman/Wonder Woman. You guys are simply making that up, period.

In JL #12 and other issues is pretty evident that what attracted Superman to her is that he can't be hurt easily, he is almost a god. and for the way she sees the humans, they do not stand a chance to date her.
I don't see anyone making things up

[Sacred Knight]

No its not pretty evident. Its just simply not there in the narrative. And if its not in the narrative then yes, you're making that up. If it comes up in the future, fine, but it hasn't yet and since it hasn't yet, just saying its evident gives the idea absolutely no credibility.

[misslane]

Of course. There's already a precendent set that both Superman and Wonder Woman can just as easily be attracted to normal humans. No reason to think if one didn't have powers and they were to meet that it couldn't happen there.

I'm asking you to speculate. Knowing what you know about Clark and Diana, do you think they would be together if they didn't have superpowers? I'm not asking about whether they would be attracted to each other, I'm more specifically asking whether they would have ever considered pursuing a real relationship with each other if one or the other didn't have superpowers.