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  1. #76
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Which is kind of ironic when one takes into consideration the fact that T'Challa himself is supposed to be an Apex master strategist/stealth warrior from one of the most technologically advanced nations in the 616 MU.

    It's like Hickman showcases other characters uber-qualities whilst reducing T'Challa (and the rest of the Illuminati) to the level of a innefectual tactical moron totally bereft of the signature characteristics that have been part of his repetoire right from the characters very inception. :smh:
    I get what you're saying, but I think there is more to it than that. First, the emotional state of T'Challa based on all that has happened. He's probably a bit off his game, and understandably so. Walking through the wreckage of one's homeland would be far more distracting than walking through the wreckage of some other land that doesn't really have anything to do with you.

    There is also the question of what tech he may have had access to. Yes, he's from one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth....but that nation lay in ruins. Who can say what they managed to scavenge or salvage? Who's to say how much of their salvage instead had to go toward the Illuminati's doings?

    Then there is the plan itself. BP's plan to steal the bombs seemed like a desperation move, and the kind of thing they'd be ready for. And it's a bit unclear if they were expecting him or not.

    On the other hand, Black Widow and Spider-Woman had as much time to plan as they wanted, very likely no limit on the resources for the job, no emotional connection to the location, and a clear objective to simply verify if Stark was a prisoner there, and then to possibly help him.

    I don't see the two events as any kind of comment on BP's ability versus that of BW or SW. I think all three, and Shuri too.....although maybe not so much the White Tiger guys (sorry I forget their name at the moment)....are among the stealthier Marvel characters. I don't think anything we've seen contradicts that.

  2. #77
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanetaryDevastation View Post
    While I get where you're coming from, The Cabal knew that they were coming and were waiting. Apparently someone sold them out.
    True, but this doesn't change the fact that the author crafting the saga being discussed has portrayed the Illuminati in their entirety as being incredibly shortsighted and innefectual across the board.


    In the face of such tactical blundering, being "sold out" was quite inevitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I think there is more to it than that. First, the emotional state of T'Challa based on all that has happened. He's probably a bit off his game, and understandably so. Walking through the wreckage of one's homeland would be far more distracting than walking through the wreckage of some other land that doesn't really have anything to do with you.

    There is also the question of what tech he may have had access to. Yes, he's from one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth....but that nation lay in ruins. Who can say what they managed to scavenge or salvage? Who's to say how much of their salvage instead had to go toward the Illuminati's doings?

    Then there is the plan itself. BP's plan to steal the bombs seemed like a desperation move, and the kind of thing they'd be ready for. And it's a bit unclear if they were expecting him or not.

    On the other hand, Black Widow and Spider-Woman had as much time to plan as they wanted, very likely no limit on the resources for the job, no emotional connection to the location, and a clear objective to simply verify if Stark was a prisoner there, and then to possibly help him.

    I don't see the two events as any kind of comment on BP's ability versus that of BW or SW. I think all three, and Shuri too.....although maybe not so much the White Tiger guys (sorry I forget their name at the moment)....are among the stealthier Marvel characters. I don't think anything we've seen contradicts that.

    Reed Richards and T'Challa are higher level intellectuals with Tony being the zeitgeist futurist engineer with the ability to make technological dreams a reality and yet, between the three of them you'd think that they were complete idiots unable to put their collective brains together and realise that keeping Thanos and Co on ice in the Necropolis right next to WMD's was catastrophically stupid.

    All of T'Challa's tactical blunders occured before the Cabal was even formed and this is where I take major issue with the way Hickman has been writing T'Challa since the very beginning of the New Avengers saga.

    The original Incursion that T'Challa and the three young Wakandan proteges encountered, occured on the 616 Earth in Wakanda with the three Wakandan youths losing their lives at the hands of Yabbat Ummon Taru and her henchmen before T'Challa decimated said henchmen and incapacitated the Black Swan.

    One would have thought that T'Challa would have at least informed his sister, Queen Shuri of the danger posed by said incursions even as he made moves to reach out to the same Illuminati that in times past he himself, declined to be a part of and herein lies the beginning of a course of follies on T'Challa's part, that have led to Wakanda's seeming overall destruction as depicted over the last few issues of New Avengers that have been released so far.

    T'Challa was already being written as being bereft of the tactical awareness associated with his character long before the Cabal were unleashed on Wakanda so the concept of his being "thrown of his game" due to having to walk through the ruins of the nation that his own stupidity brought to ruin doesn't exactly gel with his pre-Doomwar established characteristics.

    I'd like to believe that Hickman will redeem each member of the Illuminati before this saga reaches its conclusion but right now, I can't really see it.

    Peace.
    Last edited by Mr MajestiK; 11-20-2014 at 01:28 PM.
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  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    True, but this doesn't change the fact that the author crafting the saga being discussed has portrayed the Illuminati in their entirety as being incredibly shortsighted and innefectual across the board.

    Reed Richards and T'Challa are higher level intellectuals with Tony being the zeitgeist futurist engineer with the ability to make technological dreams a reality and yet, between the three of them you'd think that they were complete idiots unable to put their collective brains together and realise that keeping Thanos and Co on ice in the Necropolis right next to WMD's was catastrophically stupid.

    In the face of such tactical blundering, being "sold out" was quite inevitable.
    Fair enough. I get where you're coming from.

  4. #79

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    You guys remind me of people arguing ned stark is stupid years ago.. remember We have the superpower of hindsight.

  5. #80
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    Yeah the execution not great, the Illumanti has not shown tactical nous and it would have been nice to see them testing other options besides Kill Planets and Infinity Gauntlet.

  6. #81
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    True, but this doesn't change the fact that the author crafting the saga being discussed has portrayed the Illuminati in their entirety as being incredibly shortsighted and innefectual across the board.


    In the face of such tactical blundering, being "sold out" was quite inevitable.




    Reed Richards and T'Challa are higher level intellectuals with Tony being the zeitgeist futurist engineer with the ability to make technological dreams a reality and yet, between the three of them you'd think that they were complete idiots unable to put their collective brains together and realise that keeping Thanos and Co on ice in the Necropolis right next to WMD's was catastrophically stupid.

    All of T'Challa's tactical blunders occured before the Cabal was even formed and this is where I take major issue with the way Hickman has been writing T'Challa since the very beginning of the New Avengers saga.

    The original Incursion that T'Challa and the three young Wakandan proteges encountered, occured on the 616 Earth in Wakanda with the three Wakandan youths losing their lives at the hands of Yabbat Ummon Taru and her henchmen before T'Challa decimated said henchmen and incapacitated the Black Swan.

    One would have thought that T'Challa would have at least informed his sister, Queen Shuri of the danger posed by said incursions even as he made moves to reach out to the same Illuminati that in times past he himself, declined to be a part of and herein lies the beginning of a course of follies on T'Challa's part, that have led to Wakanda's seeming overall destruction as depicted over the last few issues of New Avengers that have been released so far.

    T'Challa was already being written as being bereft of the tactical awareness associated with his character long before the Cabal were unleashed on Wakanda so the concept of his being "thrown of his game" due to having to walk through the ruins of the nation that his own stupidity brought to ruin doesn't exactly gel with his pre-Doomwar established characteristics.

    I'd like to believe that Hickman will redeem each member of the Illuminati before this saga reaches its conclusion but right now, I can't really see it.

    Peace.
    Oh I don't think T'Challa has been without mistakes. He's made plenty. And I am glad. If he were perfect, the story would be boring. I do agree that perhaps he needed to speak with Shuri after NA 1....but I also understand his reason to involve the Illuminati. And doing so involved Namor. So I can understand the need for him to leave Shuri out of it.

    It's all the secrecy vs. cooperation, and the few elite deciding for the many that are core parts of the story. And while I do think the characters are molded around that idea, I don't feel any of it has been enough to break my acceptance of it. They're all flawed. They're all used to keeping secrets. They're all used to deciding things on behalf of the entire planet.

    But that's all much larger than the specific example of stealth missions into the Necropolis....

  7. #82
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Oh I don't think T'Challa has been without mistakes. He's made plenty. And I am glad. If he were perfect, the story would be boring. I do agree that perhaps he needed to speak with Shuri after NA 1....but I also understand his reason to involve the Illuminati. And doing so involved Namor. So I can understand the need for him to leave Shuri out of it.

    It's all the secrecy vs. cooperation, and the few elite deciding for the many that are core parts of the story. And while I do think the characters are molded around that idea, I don't feel any of it has been enough to break my acceptance of it. They're all flawed. They're all used to keeping secrets. They're all used to deciding things on behalf of the entire planet.

    But that's all much larger than the specific example of stealth missions into the Necropolis....
    I like to expand on my musings.
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  8. #83
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    I like to expand on my musings.
    Fair enough.

    As much as I enjoy the story, it's weakest point would probably be how super geniuses are depicted. That's probably a valid complaint about any story featuring folks on this kind of intellectual level.

  9. #84
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    Walker is great artist, they said. He was just phoning it on Arena and Undercover, they said. He will flourish once they pair him with REAL writer, they said.
    It's his what, 4th issue, right? You know, this guy really made me realize how important the art is in long game, jigsaw puzzle type of story. Because I don't know if they're suggesting Black Swan is grown-up Valeria of if Walker just went for sameface.

    Aside from crappy art, I liked this issue. Some humor bits were actually really nice and something I really missed in these books. And I suspect Tony at this new "darkest hour" is still inverted, making him double asshole. Which I like.

  10. #85
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itspopularnowitsucks View Post
    You guys remind me of people arguing ned stark is stupid years ago.. remember We have the superpower of hindsight.
    Ned Stark was stupid. You don't need hindsight to know you shouldn't trust Cersei Lannister.



    Also, since I'm sad here's no Namor in this issue and feeling like picking a nit... I wonder if Hickman understands what 'score' means? Or is he saying, that when the Cabal saves another universe (and the 616), there are other universes attached to that one?

    Also 14 worlds destroyed, and 15 Secret Wars teasers. Hmmmmm.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Which is kind of ironic when one takes into consideration the fact that T'Challa himself is supposed to be an Apex master strategist/stealth warrior from one of the most technologically advanced nations in the 616 MU.

    It's like Hickman showcases other characters uber-qualities whilst reducing T'Challa (and the rest of the Illuminati) to the level of a innefectual tactical moron totally bereft of the signature characteristics that have been part of his repetoire right from the characters very inception. :smh:
    Black Panther hasn't been all that since he moved into Hells Kitchen written by David Liss. That destroyed the myth of the Black Panther, not Hickman.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Black Panther hasn't been all that since he moved into Hells Kitchen written by David Liss. That destroyed the myth of the Black Panther, not Hickman.
    See.....I'm not sure of that. Like most stories BP fans seem divided on Liss story but most seemed to like it. (at least on CBR)

    Also unless stated otherwise this is still cannon:


    So with Pym and Doc Green on the Illuminati T'Challa is no longer the second smartest man in the room. (Not sure where Stark landed on that list but from what I am told it was closer to #4 or #5 )
    Last edited by Trident; 11-21-2014 at 05:09 AM.

  13. #88
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Which is kind of ironic when one takes into consideration the fact that T'Challa himself is supposed to be an Apex master strategist/stealth warrior from one of the most technologically advanced nations in the 616 MU.

    It's like Hickman showcases other characters uber-qualities whilst reducing T'Challa (and the rest of the Illuminati) to the level of a innefectual tactical moron totally bereft of the signature characteristics that have been part of his repetoire right from the characters very inception. :smh:
    Of course, it's possible too that the presence of Natasha and Jessica wouldn't have changed the final outcome, but regardless of said outcome, I think they would have been more assets than burden to T'Challa's team.
    I think no matter how competent he and his team were, he would have been fine having them with him, Shuri and the others.
    I think such addition would not reflects badly on T'Challa's own abilities.
    I think it's one of those case where, even if the hero is very capable, can objectively handle the situation on his own and doesn't need any form of help, receiving said help doesn't hurt either.
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  14. #89
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    It may already be widely accepted, but....go back and flip back and forth between the close up of Valeria's face and the close up of Black Swan...definitely more evidence that they are analogs...the bangs of the hair are identical...Black Swan is just older.

  15. #90
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnitedad View Post
    It may already be widely accepted, but....go back and flip back and forth between the close up of Valeria's face and the close up of Black Swan...definitely more evidence that they are analogs...the bangs of the hair are identical...Black Swan is just older.
    Unfortunately, that does happen a lot with artisits rendition of characters . You could also say Black Swan looks a lot like Sue when Epting was on the title. It's sometimes hard to tell Clint and Steve apart when they are in their civvies.

    So no one is intrigued about what role the Molecule Man is playing?

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