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  1. #16
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    Well, here's hoping that she stays on.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipsnopotatoes View Post
    What I'd like to know is why isn't he doing more for Catwoman. Her new book is severely under promoted. I feel bad for Genevieve because she's a really decent writer but it doesn't sound like she receives any support from him or DC management.
    Maybe because comic book readers like more Batman kids and other Batman characters such as Harley Quinn than Catwoman ? I am under the impression Catwoman best days are behind her. Just saying.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    Well, the two situations are not exactly identical, either from an editorial or a business perspective. In Dick Grayson they had a very popular character who had already proved capable of carrying a mid-ranking series even under less-than-ideal circumstances, and whom many believed, based on the evidence of Teen Titans and Batman and Robin, should be capable of doing much more given the right support. In Catwoman they had a character who was well-liked and of long lineage, but who had never been capable of selling at the same level as Grayson's books and who had no Teen Titans or Batman and Robin to give hard data on possible improvements, whatever the editors might think of the character's literary potential.

    For what it's worth, I actually was at a convention where Genevieve Valentine talked about her experience with the Batman Office and Catwoman. It's true that anything said in such a public forum has to pass through several filters, and I am sure there was more to the story than she let on. But she indicated that, although she had faced some problems inherent in working in a corporate culture like D.C.'s, she was very admiring of Mark Doyle and his approach (she said it was like Gotham was a multi-dimensional city where dozens of different realities interacted) and had no complaints about the support she was getting from that quarter. She did say her initial contract was for seven books with no promises thereafter. However, given that she had never worked for D.C. or in comics before, such a trial run is scarcely surprising, or unwise. Also, she said that everyone seemed to have very realistic and reasonable expectations. That is, and she put it rather bluntly, given how badly things had gone for the character in the last few years, if a writer just managed to get a solid arc out without major stumbles, everyone was prepared to breathe a sigh and declare a victory. One might call that defeatism, but she found it a welcome and very workable attitude.
    Thanks for your very interesting insight into the minds of DC management. It does bring up a chicken or the egg question. Based on past experience, they don't perceive she can sell so they give her the runt of the litter in terms of nu52 creative teams (Winick, Nocenti) which makes her popularity spiral downwards even more. It's a self fulfilling prophecy which then reinforces their perception. And keeping Nocenti for 2 whole years while she ran this book to the ground? From a business perspective, how does this make sense?

    As far as your conversation with Genevieve, I'm happy they gave her some leeway while she still had her training wheels but "realistic and reasonable expectations" sounds like they were never really going to invest much in her new direction anyway.

  4. #19
    Spectacular Member MrStatham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipsnopotatoes View Post
    Thanks for your very interesting insight into the minds of DC management. It does bring up a chicken or the egg question. Based on past experience, they don't perceive she can sell so they give her the runt of the litter in terms of nu52 creative teams (Winick, Nocenti) which makes her popularity spiral downwards even more. It's a self fulfilling prophecy which then reinforces their perception. And keeping Nocenti for 2 whole years while she ran this book to the ground? From a business perspective, how does this make sense?
    Well, didn't they only just really start making the sensible decisions with the arrival of Doyle to the line (including stuff like not forcing every book to join in with every Snyder story)? The management of Catwoman as an overall book is basically small potatoes compared to some of DC's other decisions in the past few years, so I'm not sure how you can be surprised. I'm not even sure they put Winick on the book thinking he was the runt of the litter (and March, when reined in, is hardly a bad artist), given Winick did relatively well-received work with Jason Todd and his Batman run sold, but I think his approach to the book was something of a creative misfire which they then struggled to correct with Nocenti. I don't think they made either of those decisions with 'these writers suck' in mind, given Nocenti also has well-received work in her past. Sales-wise, Catwoman probably sells just enough on a name basis that they didn't really care about correcting the problem for a while, which is why Nocenti was only just shuffled off to Klarion. It's not a coincidence, after all, that Selina gets a new team when these new books are coming out too.

  5. #20
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    Now see this what they need to do with Spider-Man, Batman thrives on versatility that it's basis is already solidified in ever different interpretation.

    Spidey is now on the other hand is about pairing wars and spidey vs. Spock butthurt.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member AlexanderLuthor's Avatar
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    Remember when the DC "fans" on this board were up in arms that the end was nigh when Mike Marts left? Well, as I said at the time, it was time for a fresh look at the Batman line. The tonal diversity at this point is quite stark - Batman, Detective, B&R, Gotham Academy and Grayson couldn't be more disparate. And that's a good thing. Not sure where people are getting that Doyle is leaving? This is the 21st century and people are making too much of the move. Flying to California from the Northeast (given the weather right now especially) every month or so isn't the worst thing in the world. The move is affecting the internal staff and the people that make the trains run on time back office - not the creatives and editors (many of who work remotely anyway)

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStatham View Post
    Well, didn't they only just really start making the sensible decisions with the arrival of Doyle to the line (including stuff like not forcing every book to join in with every Snyder story)? The management of Catwoman as an overall book is basically small potatoes compared to some of DC's other decisions in the past few years, so I'm not sure how you can be surprised. I'm not even sure they put Winick on the book thinking he was the runt of the litter (and March, when reined in, is hardly a bad artist), given Winick did relatively well-received work with Jason Todd and his Batman run sold, but I think his approach to the book was something of a creative misfire which they then struggled to correct with Nocenti. I don't think they made either of those decisions with 'these writers suck' in mind, given Nocenti also has well-received work in her past. Sales-wise, Catwoman probably sells just enough on a name basis that they didn't really care about correcting the problem for a while, which is why Nocenti was only just shuffled off to Klarion. It's not a coincidence, after all, that Selina gets a new team when these new books are coming out too.
    You know, it's funny because her being able to capitalize on her name alone so they can stick a shitty creative team seems to be at the other end of the spectrum of excuses. Either way, Catwoman loses doesn't she? What is apparent to me is lazy, capricious mediocre management leaving money on the table.

    As for Winick and Nocenti, their reputation is mixed at best and their better days are behind them. Didn't Nocenti tank Green Arrow just before this assignment?

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