Superman Villain: how would you fix Mongul?

[Jcogginsa]

Inspired by Ami Mizuno's threads in the Wonder Woman forum, I decided to make one for a Superman villain.

so, how would you guys make Mongul more compelling as a Superman villain?

[Adekis]

Simple, really. You know the Black Mercy induced epilogue of "For the Man Who Has Everything"?

Like an insatiable virus he sweeps out across the universe, and his enemies are as dust beneath his feet. Suns shudder at his coming. The great powers of the cosmos kneel before him and kiss his fingertips. Vast and implacable, a resurrected War-World wheels through the bottomless night, reducing galaxy after galaxy to smoking ruin. The stars run red. The nebulae echo with the screams of the dying... He is content.

Just take that fantasy, carve out a sizable but not ridiculous size of the galaxy, and make it a horrific reality there. A sector where Mongul's whim is law, where Green Lanterns will not tread due to one of those plot contrivance treaties, where the Warlord of War-World brings ruin to the stars- and right on the expanding border of his expanding empire, Earth. Or perhaps someone flees to Earth asking for aid, and Superman, ever the the champion of the oppressed, gladly goes out of his way to help.

The difference between Darkseid and Mongul is basically that Mongul isn't a New God and Darkseid is. Just write one of those irritatingly frequent Darkseid stories where Darkseid, ontological force of the narrative, shows up and for some reason the likes of Barda and Lightray don't come along, and switch out Darkseid for Mongul. Change the aesthetic from "Kirby" to something like "Warhammer 40k" and you've got yourself a suitable imposing Space Tyrant armed with a Death Star for Superman to oppose.

[Jon Clark]

I'd go more for making Mongul a bit less of a tyrant. What if Mongul's subjects largely support him. Yeah, Mongul's methods might be brutal but he only uses them on people causing problems. Before Mongul and his WarWorld came along there was a new conquest every other decade. A planet would be conquered by the Khund and just as daily life stopped being bombings and clashing troops Kanjar Ro would invade or a local guy would try a coup. Since Mongul the daily life has been stable and as long as you don't cross him Mongul keeps it that way. A happy worker is a productive worker and all that. Plus there are those cool gladiatorial battles Mogul uses to keep them entertained (and deal with those loudmouths who oppose his rule). So why would they want some Krypterran to come in and bring back the bad old days.

Heck even the Green Lanterns recognize Mongul as the leader around here. You'd no more see a Lantern clash with Mongul than you'd see Hal Jordan being allowed to bust a slumlord (see the 1st classic GL/GA story). No strange convenient treaties with the Guardians, just simple GL shall not interfere with internal politics stuff.

Superman was once brought into the gladiatorial games by a third party and managed to do some stuff that embarrassed Mongul. Now every so often Mongul tries to repair his reputation by killing Superman. And heck having someone like Jon in the gladiatorial games down the line would be a nice way of keeping up the interest of the populace of this empire.

[Francisco]

I'd go more for making Mongul a bit less of a tyrant. What if Mongul's subjects largely support him. Yeah, Mongul's methods might be brutal but he only uses them on people causing problems. Before Mongul and his WarWorld came along there was a new conquest every other decade. A planet would be conquered by the Khund and just as daily life stopped being bombings and clashing troops Kanjar Ro would invade or a local guy would try a coup. Since Mongul the daily life has been stable and as long as you don't cross him Mongul keeps it that way. A happy worker is a productive worker and all that. Plus there are those cool gladiatorial battles Mogul uses to keep them entertained (and deal with those loudmouths who oppose his rule). So why would they want some Krypterran to come in and bring back the bad old days.

Heck even the Green Lanterns recognize Mongul as the leader around here. You'd no more see a Lantern clash with Mongul than you'd see Hal Jordan being allowed to bust a slumlord (see the 1st classic GL/GA story). No strange convenient treaties with the Guardians, just simple GL shall not interfere with internal politics stuff.

Superman was once brought into the gladiatorial games by a third party and managed to do some stuff that embarrassed Mongul. Now every so often Mongul tries to repair his reputation by killing Superman. And heck having someone like Jon in the gladiatorial games down the line would be a nice way of keeping up the interest of the populace of this empire.

I like this. Mongul: The Antivillain

[Adekis]

I'd go more for making Mongul a bit less of a tyrant. What if Mongul's subjects largely support him. Yeah, Mongul's methods might be brutal but he only uses them on people causing problems. Before Mongul and his WarWorld came along there was a new conquest every other decade. A planet would be conquered by the Khund and just as daily life stopped being bombings and clashing troops Kanjar Ro would invade or a local guy would try a coup. Since Mongul the daily life has been stable and as long as you don't cross him Mongul keeps it that way. A happy worker is a productive worker and all that. Plus there are those cool gladiatorial battles Mogul uses to keep them entertained (and deal with those loudmouths who oppose his rule). So why would they want some Krypterran to come in and bring back the bad old days.

Heck even the Green Lanterns recognize Mongul as the leader around here. You'd no more see a Lantern clash with Mongul than you'd see Hal Jordan being allowed to bust a slumlord (see the 1st classic GL/GA story). No strange convenient treaties with the Guardians, just simple GL shall not interfere with internal politics stuff.

Superman was once brought into the gladiatorial games by a third party and managed to do some stuff that embarrassed Mongul. Now every so often Mongul tries to repair his reputation by killing Superman. And heck having someone like Jon in the gladiatorial games down the line would be a nice way of keeping up the interest of the populace of this empire.

That's an interesting idea, but it reminds me a little too much of Apokolips and that famous Superman the Animated Series episode where Superman beats the tar out of Darkseid and the people rush to their oppressor's aid. Apokolips also has a certain kind of scope to it that ironically, a sector of normal space just doesn't. It makes it more okay for Superman to leave Apokolips and feel bad about it than it would for a non-New God territory.

Still, there's a lot to like about it!

[Thor-Ul]

The big problem with Mongul is than he always has been seen as a poor man's Darkseid, a character similar to the Kirby creation but without his charisma. Put him as the ruler of Warworld again but as the controler of a space sector it make that similarity stronger. And after losing the control of Warworld he has become the punching bag of every upstart.
I would work on what makes Mongul different from Darkseid instead making more similar: I like the idea of Mongul as the ruler of Warworld but in constant defense of his throne, in gladiator competitions. That is one thing that make him different from Darkseid: he has no an elite followig him, he does the dirty work himself.

[Adekis]

That is one thing that make him different from Darkseid: he has no an elite followig him, he does the dirty work himself.

I actually really like this idea? Thinking about it, has Mongul ever included large amounts of soldiers? I mostly think of him ruling through fear, both of himself and of his Death Star, the original War World.

[LordUltimus]

Make him the opposite of Superman as a father. He's still a huge tyrant, but he's actually a pretty good dad to a younger than most interpretations Mongul Jr. and Mongal, who themselves get into fights with Jon.

[Ascended]

I dont think there's much wrong with Mongul on a conceptual level, he just hasn't had a ton of great stories lately.

I did enjoy the hell out of him when Johns borrowed him for the Green Lantern titles though.

Anyway, if I was gonna do anything with Mongul, I'd lean into the obvious Darkseid and Thanos parallels. That's really Mongul's biggest weakness; he's a thin copy of a much cooler villain (well, a copy of a villain who's a copy of a villain). It seems like attempts to make Mongul less like Darkseid usually don't end up sticking, so that feels like a bust. So I'd just embrace the similarities and make Mongul a worshiper of Darkseid.

Makes sense right? Darkseid supposedly has conquered/destroyed worlds across the multiverse. It stands to reason there'd be those out there who worship him. So I'd have Mongul be one of those. He's built Warworld to honor Apokolips, he's razed worlds and burned civilizations in an attempt to gain Darkseid's favor.

Sure, it makes Mongul a bit player in the much larger Fourth World saga......but he's still terrifying (and technically Clark and Jimmy Olsen are also both pawns in the Fourth World saga too). He's still a League-level threat with a weaponized planet, the blood of millions on his hands, and has the raw power to scare anyone who *isnt* a higher dimensional god out of clean pants.

And as someone else said, now that Clark has a family and kids, playing up those aspects of Mongul would work really well too. Imagine how horrifying it would be to watch Mongul induct his children into the worship of Darkseid, how nicely that would play against Clark raising Jon, and how it would add extra layers to Mongul's character. Imagine a story where Mongul, who truly loves his children, finally makes contact with the Fourth World, and Dessad demands Mongul sacrifice his children in Darkseid's name. The struggle there of a loving father commanded by his god is ripe for tales worthy of the New Gods. Imagine Mongul's reaction when he learns Dessad only made the demand for laughs.

I actually have a lot more for Mongul in mind too, but I'll keep that stuff to myself. Just on the infinitely unlikely chance I ever find myself in a position to use the ideas.

[Kuwagaton]

I've never really read Thanos... actually, I've read more Mongul than I have Thanos. But it's funny that although Starlin created both, it sounds like he gave Thanos some key to staying power that Mongul doesn't have. Of course, there's the unfortunate fact that DC has Darkseid. Darkseid should be extremely hard to beat if not unbeaten, imo.

So then what about Mongul? He was created to whip Superman in a fight, but sooner or later that idea has to fall through. Instead of having a huge, rich cast to play off like Darkseid, Mongul just has kids who are so like him, you'd think that the writers created them just in case someone goofed and offed the real banana peel deal himself. How do you have Mongul reoccur and make it worthwhile? I do like that term used here, "antivillain." It reminds me of Mongul Jr. coming to Earth before OWAW. I'd bring back that reluctant interest in Superman. Superman would just whip him sooner or later if they were truly enemies, but I'd make Mongul a little more like the classic Maxima.

[Prime]

Isn't Mongul who you use when you don't want to use Darkseid?

[Jcogginsa]

I think what I'd do with Mongul is make him less of a tyrant, and more of a gangster.

Gangster films are, in essence, a type of Immigrants story, and that is a good parallel for Superman. Mongul is, at the start, a guy who comes somewhere new for a second chance, and winds up finding success by embracing the worst aspects of that society.

His introduction to Superman could be a plotline where he tries to run a protection racket on Earth, for example.

[Lvenger]

I agree Mongul doesn't have many problems on a conceptual level. The problem with him is that he was underused in the Post Crisis era and his son became Superman's punching bag after ironically helping him to unlock his full potential. If OWAW is still canon, perhaps a twisted student-master relationship could help reinvigorate the Superman-Mongul enmity. Mongul trying to teach Superman certain lessons he failed to learn could create some interesting conflict IMO. Alternatively, Mongul bringing a troop of his strongest gladiators to fight the Super Family or the Justice League would make him a legitimate threat again. Or a story that takes some idea from the Warworld episode of Justice League where Mongul uses the gladitorial fights to make them forget about the poverty of an alien world. And Superman and Jon facing off with Mongul and his son would be a cool clash. It'd be too easy to make Mongul a cruel and oppressive father but Mongul should value strength and victory at all costs in raising his son, which would clash with Superman's style of fatherhood.

[Ascended]

I agree Mongul doesn't have many problems on a conceptual level. The problem with him is that he was underused in the Post Crisis era

I think that's the real issue. Back in the day, they used Mongul because they couldn't use Darkseid very much or very often. Once Darkseid and the rest of the New Gods fully integrated with the core DCU and started interacting with the League and other major characters on a regular basis, writers were able to use Darkseid more easily so Mongul's original purpose sort of fell apart.

And yeah, Darkseid got started in Super-books, but that was largely just a springboard and they quickly took up their own corner of the world.

Mongul's a fine villain, even if he is derivative of Thanos and Darkseid. He needs some quality stories, not an overhaul. A few tweaks to help him stand on his own would be great, but even then he's an alien warlord with a weaponized planet and a gladiator kink, with a couple of kids just as bad as he is. There's plenty there to work with.

[superduperman]

The first Mongul story I ever read had War World being controlled by it's original "keepers". So I would have Mongul be this kind of Truman Show type captive. The keepers kidnap opponents for him to fight and tell him that he is the champion for thousands of worlds when, really, no one remembers him. He was a once great gladiator who has long since been forgotten and the keepers just find people for him to fight to keep up the illusion. Sort of a Norma Desmond type situation. And they are the butler writing fake fan letters. They tell him that his matches are being watched all over the galaxy while the cameras really haven't been on for years.