Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 67
  1. #16
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Nice analysis Chris! I think you nailed most of it.

    I really enjoyed this issue. I also would have rated it 5 stars.

    It did take a couple of reads to pull it all together but I didn't mind having to work for it.

    I believe that Algorithim 8 is, in effect, seeing reality as a comic book, ie.e the Mobius strip. A power that we, the readers, have now had passed on to us. I think Atom explains it in the scene with the scientists right before he vanishes. It's interesting that he mentions a knock at the door and then in the scene with Harley at his father's grave he describes the door. I wonder if those two are taking place at the same time for Atom?

    I'm also not sure what the connection is with his dad being a comic book artist and his realizing something (?) at the end, when the mask takes the shape of the 8. I'm tempted to say he has some sense of the algorithim there but I think it makes more sense that Atom gives it to him at the gravesite. I guess that moment is maybe more formative as to what his plan for fixing America entails including Pax Americana and giving Atom the comics etc ..

  2. #17
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
    All the answers to the questions you ask are in the narrative. I have read no interviews - I don't think Morrison has given any "explaining" anything of this issue, and it made fine sense to me.



    It's about agent of the Gentry destroying this world's heroes. President Harley has a plan, which he has formulated using "Algorithm 8", a mathematical equation that allows him to accurately predict the future. He instructs Peacemaker to assassinate him, only for Captain Atom to then resurrect him. This is how he perceives he will bring "world peace" - perhaps by making himself some sort of Messiah (you yourself observe the Christ-like visual), or maybe just by sanctifying superheroes once again and restoring them to their golden days of being lauded wonderbeings, instead of shadow-dwellers and government-funded objects of suspicion. However --



    He was removed from the universe by having a black hole opened within his brain by the scientists, on the orders of the vice president, via Sergeant Lane - agents of the Gentry - in order to PREVENT him from being able to resurrect Harley. This allows the vice-president to step in and shut down all superhero operations, destroying the heroes of this world, in accordance with the Gentry's wishes.



    He's the first government-employed superhero.



    Algorithm 8 is the mathematical formula for predicting the future, given to Harley by the time-travelling Captain Atom - essentially Atom bestowing his level of understand of time on Harley. She solves the algorithm, and as such, understands what is about to happen in the future - that Atom has been removed from the universe and CANNOT resurrect Harley. She is killed before she can use his knowledge to prevent Peacemaker from assassinating Harley.



    In addition to playing into Ditko's philosophies, that scene is him finding out about the secret formula, Algorithm 8.



    Nightshade's still working for the government, the Question has long since gone rogue and is sticking his nose into businesses the government would rather he not (the conspiracy) and have set their agents on him.



    They made him leave with the aforementioned black hole. They were killed to ensure their silence. The Sergeant is Sergeant Lane, seen inducting the heroes later in the issue, in the past, when Harley forms them into a team. The metal hand denotes him as the Charlton Comics character, Sarge Steel.



    No, it didn't, it was just furthering the Nightshade/Silk Spectre parallel.



    He's not in his right mind, trying to grasp the new view of life his powers have given him. But, narratively, it showed us that he was capable of killing something, and then bringing it back to life, which was what Harley planned for him to do to him.



    That is indeed what the scene shows. Harley is responsible for accidentally killing his father, the hero Yellowjacket, and essentially triggering the end of the "golden age" of heroes. It's a desire to bring about an age of peace that he basically strangled in the crib thanks to this accident that drives his whole scheme, which is the plot of the issue. This scene is the scene that makes the whole issue make sense.



    That's the future president. This is the scene of Captain Atom, from the future, appearing to him and granting him understanding in the form of Algorithm 8 (Atom is seen reading the "cursed comic", of course, so the possibility exists that he is or will become an agent of the Gentry also, and so may be putting all of this in motion with malice aforethought, which the vice-president and Lane then simply see through). Harley says while talking to Atom that the symbol on his ring - not the number 8 that Atom believes it is - is a reminder of where he was when he first gained understanding. The impulsive response as a reader is to think that, rather than 8, it must be an infinity sign - that's something we've all seen before, and this issue is full of talk of metaphors for infinity and time being non-linear. But as we find out on the final page, it is neither - it his the image of his father's domino mask, from that horrible moment in his childhood, which he has chosen to wear as a reminder of his father's gravesite, where understanding dawned.

    So.... there you go. I guess the basic problem you had was that you didn't understand that the president orchestrated the plot of the whole issue. I'm not lecturing, I'm not even gettin' at you - because I used to respond the same way to Morrison stories. Something just clicked one day and I "got" them.
    LOL

    God Comics have passed me by.

  3. #18
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    The story really isn't very confusing--just about everything you're asking is in the text, and a lot of it is explicitly stated.



    Directly relatively little, though especially with the presence of Ultra Comics it's unquestionable that they've been influencing the proceedings. Thematically, this issue deals with the failure of the super-hero concept, much like the other issues, and it seems very likely Captain Atom (and possibly the Question) will reappear later.



    He was collapsed into a black hole and "exited reality". He mentioned earlier/later that he couldn't be killed, and as a man who can see through time he would know. Most likely, he's been merely exiled from Earth 4, to appear later in Multiversity.



    He's admittedly more of a plot-driver than anything else (it's not a character-centric piece, aside from President Harley and to a lesser extent Captain Atom), but he's essentially the 'pure' hero this world otherwise lacks, or he at least tries to be. He genuinely wants to make a better world, but his blind faith and violent means to achieve his ends render him ultimately ineffectual.



    That was the same guy as who killed the scientists, and she was killed because with Algorithm 8, she could pick up where the President left off or prevent his assassination altogether.



    It imparted to the reader information about both the plot and the larger world, showed how his personality had changed over time, and showcased the callous brutality that was the damning flaw of this world's super-people.



    By that point, Blue Beetle and Nightshade both pretty clearly thought he had gone nuts and needed to be brought down.



    In the original Charlton Comics he was "Sarge Steel", but that's basically irrelevant--the point is that you later see him joining in the Peacemaker's interrogation, making clear he's operating on the orders of the corrupt Vice President. They were killed to prevent knowledge of Captain Atom's demise on the orders of the Vice-President, who didn't trust him and may have known about the conspiracy to kill the President, sabotaging it so he would come to power.



    It provides a hint about the VP's involvement in Atom's "death", the mother's dementia and recurring speech is an additional loop, and her references to "the Shadow Dimension" (the Land of Nightshades for the traditional Nightshade, a realm the Multiverse Map clarifies as being in the realm of Nightmare) may become significant later.



    Well, it's just going a bit farther forward at first before starting to go back. But it is indeed not totally backwards--Atom shows up again too--the story instead curves in on itself, like a Mobius strip.



    He said exactly why he was doing it: after his transformation, he no longer felt the same feelings for the dog he had, and took it apart in the confused hope that seeing its "component parts" would allow him to find his old feelings again (possibly a critique of deconstruction, in that regard). The point is to show how unwell he is, but that like the other 'heroes' he's not meaning to do harm.



    It's the scene that informs the rest of the book: it's why Harley went to such lengths to try and save the world and why the heroes were so broken: because he accidentally killed the original and morally greatest super-hero, and his own father at that. It's what shatters him enough to go on the spirit quest that leads to him 'finding' Algorithm 8, the nature of which is shaped at least in part by the domino mask. Additionally, it's been noted that the eye of Intellectron seems to be visible on Harley's fathers drawing board, suggesting that this is where the Gentry interfered with this universe.



    Yeah, that's the President, and as well as looking like Jesus, since he's trying to become an "American Christ" of sorts through his death and resurrection as a messiah, he's meant to resemble Alan Moore, since this is a Watchmen reflection. In a lot of ways, Harley is Moore, or at least Morrison's conception of Moore: a brilliant man trying to fix everything by changing the superhero to accommodate it, but despite his brilliance and good intentions, causes more problems than he solves. That's the moment he gets Algorithm 8 and...look, asking why they spend so much time on this guy is like asking why Watchmen keeps flashing back to the Comedian, or why that one movie spends so much time on that dead Kane fella.
    Great analysis on Moore, I think that is spot on. That analysis is definetley a keeper

    On the scene with the dog, I wonder if it points to us, the readers, and how we take these comics apart and then find it difficult to love them afterwards?

  4. #19
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_K View Post
    Great analysis on Moore, I think that is spot on. That analysis is definetley a keeper

    On the scene with the dog, I wonder if it points to us, the readers, and how we take these comics apart and then find it difficult to love them afterwards?
    LOL, I think you mean Morrison. Alan may highjack the board if he saw you make that mistake.

  5. #20
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_K View Post
    I believe that Algorithim 8 is, in effect, seeing reality as a comic book, ie.e the Mobius strip. A power that we, the readers, have now had passed on to us. I think Atom explains it in the scene with the scientists right before he vanishes. It's interesting that he mentions a knock at the door and then in the scene with Harley at his father's grave he describes the door. I wonder if those two are taking place at the same time for Atom?
    In particular, I assumed the "knock on the door" was supposed to represent him sensing the Gentry's influence trying to worm its way into his mind as he reads the "cursed" comic.

    I'm also not sure what the connection is with his dad being a comic book artist and his realizing something (?) at the end, when the mask takes the shape of the 8.
    Well I assume the realization is just that it's his dad. Despite him having just called him "kid", he doesn't realise it's his father until he takes the mask off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    In a lot of ways, Harley is Moore, or at least Morrison's conception of Moore: a brilliant man trying to fix everything by changing the superhero to accommodate it, but despite his brilliance and good intentions, causes more problems than he solves.
    Oh...oh DANG.
    Last edited by Chris McFeely; 11-20-2014 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_K View Post
    Great analysis on Moore, I think that is spot on. That analysis is definetley a keeper

    On the scene with the dog, I wonder if it points to us, the readers, and how we take these comics apart and then find it difficult to love them afterwards?
    Thanks a lot! And I definitely think that's the intent of the scene with the dog, though that he later regains his empathy (after someone noting how much a kid loves it--reinforcing the comics parallel) suggests all hope is not lost for him.

    Additionally, if we're going into analysis, Harley firing the gun is the biggest moment in the issue in showing why this world goes wrong: the moment someone gets the power, whether they even consciously realize it or not, they become confrontational, doing anything to hold on to the power. It's the gun--a huge symbol in the book, with a bullet at one point looking like a bomb, another huge symbol in Morrison's work--killing the superhero, power to help destroyed by power used to control and dominate.
    Buh-bye

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
    Oh...oh DANG.
    I do my best to impress. Also worth noting (and I think it was Myskin that originally hit on this), the moment where he gets his vision starts with him getting images of very emotional, tactile scenes, multiplying into infinity, a holistic, chaotic view of reality. But it's too much, and to cope, it starts to simplify back down into 'reality' with very geometric, cold images. The impossibly structured form of the issue is in fact part of the plot: it's Harley/Moore when writing Watchmen's conception of reality, broken down into discrete, metronomic beats, the only way he/they know of coping with their understanding of the universe, and Atom's too.
    Buh-bye

  8. #23
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Thank you for answering my questions Chris. It was very helpful :-)

  9. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
    All the answers to the questions you ask are in the narrative. I have read no interviews - I don't think Morrison has given any "explaining" anything of this issue, and it made fine sense to me.



    It's about agent of the Gentry destroying this world's heroes. President Harley has a plan, which he has formulated using "Algorithm 8", a mathematical equation that allows him to accurately predict the future. He instructs Peacemaker to assassinate him, only for Captain Atom to then resurrect him. This is how he perceives he will bring "world peace" - perhaps by making himself some sort of Messiah (you yourself observe the Christ-like visual), or maybe just by sanctifying superheroes once again and restoring them to their golden days of being lauded wonderbeings, instead of shadow-dwellers and government-funded objects of suspicion. However --



    He was removed from the universe by having a black hole opened within his brain by the scientists, on the orders of the vice president, via Sergeant Lane - agents of the Gentry - in order to PREVENT him from being able to resurrect Harley. This allows the vice-president to step in and shut down all superhero operations, destroying the heroes of this world, in accordance with the Gentry's wishes.



    He's the first government-employed superhero.



    Algorithm 8 is the mathematical formula for predicting the future, given to Harley by the time-travelling Captain Atom - essentially Atom bestowing his level of understand of time on Harley. She solves the algorithm, and as such, understands what is about to happen in the future - that Atom has been removed from the universe and CANNOT resurrect Harley. She is killed before she can use his knowledge to prevent Peacemaker from assassinating Harley.



    In addition to playing into Ditko's philosophies, that scene is him finding out about the secret formula, Algorithm 8.



    Nightshade's still working for the government, the Question has long since gone rogue and is sticking his nose into businesses the government would rather he not (the conspiracy) and have set their agents on him.



    They made him leave with the aforementioned black hole. They were killed to ensure their silence. The Sergeant is Sergeant Lane, seen inducting the heroes later in the issue, in the past, when Harley forms them into a team. The metal hand denotes him as the Charlton Comics character, Sarge Steel.



    No, it didn't, it was just furthering the Nightshade/Silk Spectre parallel.



    He's not in his right mind, trying to grasp the new view of life his powers have given him. But, narratively, it showed us that he was capable of killing something, and then bringing it back to life, which was what Harley planned for him to do to him.



    That is indeed what the scene shows. Harley is responsible for accidentally killing his father, the hero Yellowjacket, and essentially triggering the end of the "golden age" of heroes. It's a desire to bring about an age of peace that he basically strangled in the crib thanks to this accident that drives his whole scheme, which is the plot of the issue. This scene is the scene that makes the whole issue make sense.



    That's the future president. This is the scene of Captain Atom, from the future, appearing to him and granting him understanding in the form of Algorithm 8 (Atom is seen reading the "cursed comic", of course, so the possibility exists that he is or will become an agent of the Gentry also, and so may be putting all of this in motion with malice aforethought, which the vice-president and Lane then simply see through). Harley says while talking to Atom that the symbol on his ring - not the number 8 that Atom believes it is - is a reminder of where he was when he first gained understanding. The impulsive response as a reader is to think that, rather than 8, it must be an infinity sign - that's something we've all seen before, and this issue is full of talk of metaphors for infinity and time being non-linear. But as we find out on the final page, it is neither - it his the image of his father's domino mask, from that horrible moment in his childhood, which he has chosen to wear as a reminder of his father's gravesite, where understanding dawned.

    So.... there you go. I guess the basic problem you had was that you didn't understand that the president orchestrated the plot of the whole issue. I'm not lecturing, I'm not even gettin' at you - because I used to respond the same way to Morrison stories. Something just clicked one day and I "got" them.
    Wow, awesome analysis. I've only gotten to read it through once, looking forward to it again tonight. Question though: How did Captain Atom not see that they were about to get rid of him? I'm sure it was explained, but I missed it somehow.
    currently reading: Dept. H, Hellboy in Hell, Kaijumax, Moon Knight

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch by Night View Post
    Wow, awesome analysis. I've only gotten to read it through once, looking forward to it again tonight. Question though: How did Captain Atom not see that they were about to get rid of him? I'm sure it was explained, but I missed it somehow.
    He did, but didn't seem to care. It likely didn't destroy him, so maybe he just let it happen so he could end up where he 'had' to.
    Buh-bye

  11. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    He did, but didn't seem to care. It likely didn't destroy him, so maybe he just let it happen so he could end up where he 'had' to.
    Thanks! I thought that, but I also had that feeling I missed something. Common problem when I read Morrison lol.
    currently reading: Dept. H, Hellboy in Hell, Kaijumax, Moon Knight

  12. #27
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    282

    Default

    Atom isn't dead, he said it wouldn't work.

  13. #28
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    369

    Default

    There's a chance Atom was sent to appear in Final Crisis. His disappearance happened months before Multiversity.

  14. #29
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deniz Camp View Post
    Understanding a little of Ditko's politics, and the way he injected that into characters like the Question and Mr. A, would absolutely help you understand the work here, especifically the Black/White Spiral Dynamics 'evolution', the neo-Nietzchean, Randian (bullshit) philosophy that forms the foundation of the character. But, I'd argue, it would also give you context and help in understanding Rorschach, and Watchmen, too.

    None of it is strictly necessary, but it's all helpful.
    With due respect, Randian philosophy is no more "bullshit" than any other political philosophy, or any other philosophical or theological thought. Since the beginning, there always been those who wanted to find the answer that would lead humankind towards Utopia, which, in the end, is bullshit, too. Why? Because it doesn't exist. In fact, I am reminded of a joke from Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part 1", where an out-of-work comic called himself a "philosopher", only to be referred to as a "bullshit artist" by the person the character was talking to. Besides, do you think Randian philosophy is bullshit because it is flawed, or are you simply reacting towards it because it has been picked up by the Right Wing? Just curious.

  15. #30
    KyleGarret
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
    All the answers to the questions you ask are in the narrative. I have read no interviews - I don't think Morrison has given any "explaining" anything of this issue, and it made fine sense to me.



    It's about agent of the Gentry destroying this world's heroes. President Harley has a plan, which he has formulated using "Algorithm 8", a mathematical equation that allows him to accurately predict the future. He instructs Peacemaker to assassinate him, only for Captain Atom to then resurrect him. This is how he perceives he will bring "world peace" - perhaps by making himself some sort of Messiah (you yourself observe the Christ-like visual), or maybe just by sanctifying superheroes once again and restoring them to their golden days of being lauded wonderbeings, instead of shadow-dwellers and government-funded objects of suspicion. However --



    He was removed from the universe by having a black hole opened within his brain by the scientists, on the orders of the vice president, via Sergeant Lane - agents of the Gentry - in order to PREVENT him from being able to resurrect Harley. This allows the vice-president to step in and shut down all superhero operations, destroying the heroes of this world, in accordance with the Gentry's wishes.



    He's the first government-employed superhero.



    Algorithm 8 is the mathematical formula for predicting the future, given to Harley by the time-travelling Captain Atom - essentially Atom bestowing his level of understand of time on Harley. She solves the algorithm, and as such, understands what is about to happen in the future - that Atom has been removed from the universe and CANNOT resurrect Harley. She is killed before she can use his knowledge to prevent Peacemaker from assassinating Harley.



    In addition to playing into Ditko's philosophies, that scene is him finding out about the secret formula, Algorithm 8.



    Nightshade's still working for the government, the Question has long since gone rogue and is sticking his nose into businesses the government would rather he not (the conspiracy) and have set their agents on him.



    They made him leave with the aforementioned black hole. They were killed to ensure their silence. The Sergeant is Sergeant Lane, seen inducting the heroes later in the issue, in the past, when Harley forms them into a team. The metal hand denotes him as the Charlton Comics character, Sarge Steel.



    No, it didn't, it was just furthering the Nightshade/Silk Spectre parallel.



    He's not in his right mind, trying to grasp the new view of life his powers have given him. But, narratively, it showed us that he was capable of killing something, and then bringing it back to life, which was what Harley planned for him to do to him.



    That is indeed what the scene shows. Harley is responsible for accidentally killing his father, the hero Yellowjacket, and essentially triggering the end of the "golden age" of heroes. It's a desire to bring about an age of peace that he basically strangled in the crib thanks to this accident that drives his whole scheme, which is the plot of the issue. This scene is the scene that makes the whole issue make sense.



    That's the future president. This is the scene of Captain Atom, from the future, appearing to him and granting him understanding in the form of Algorithm 8 (Atom is seen reading the "cursed comic", of course, so the possibility exists that he is or will become an agent of the Gentry also, and so may be putting all of this in motion with malice aforethought, which the vice-president and Lane then simply see through). Harley says while talking to Atom that the symbol on his ring - not the number 8 that Atom believes it is - is a reminder of where he was when he first gained understanding. The impulsive response as a reader is to think that, rather than 8, it must be an infinity sign - that's something we've all seen before, and this issue is full of talk of metaphors for infinity and time being non-linear. But as we find out on the final page, it is neither - it his the image of his father's domino mask, from that horrible moment in his childhood, which he has chosen to wear as a reminder of his father's gravesite, where understanding dawned.

    So.... there you go. I guess the basic problem you had was that you didn't understand that the president orchestrated the plot of the whole issue. I'm not lecturing, I'm not even gettin' at you - because I used to respond the same way to Morrison stories. Something just clicked one day and I "got" them.
    My only point of debate would be which side President Harley and Captain Atom are on.

    So far, the comic infects whoever is shown reading it. In this case, Captain Atom.

    The assassination of Harley ostensibly ends the age of heroes because the first government superhero killed him. The vice president's decision is a fairly sound political move, so doesn't seem particularly evil or planned. Harley being killed, on the other hand...

    And it was Harley who decided he had to die. He would have had this realization when figuring out algorithm 8, a secret that was given to him by his father's grave by Captain Atom, who can move through time.

    Captain Atom promises him a resurrection, so Harley goes along with the plan in hopes of becoming that Christ-like figure. But Atom knows Harley's death will end the age of heroes, which is what he wants, given he's been infected by the Gentry.

    I'm also of the belief that Sarge Steel is actually the resurrected Harley, who is now a servant of the Gentry, but that's based almost exclusively on the Peacemaker's gesture towards him and the fact that we never see his face.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •