Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[RedQueen]

Maybe they'll have Shiva as Cass's older sister maybe. Maybe a half sister, and they share the same mother.

[godisawesome]

Yeah, she doesn't agree with Nightwing, who is the one wondering about it in the first place. She hides her face, she builds up a reputation, both can be used to deceive. How people gather from this that she also artificially deaged herself a year or twenty I do not understand.



But what you are suggesting is that all of it is thrown out for the sake of work done with Shiva in this comic. Which is nothing.



I'm a bit tired of Batman's unneccesary secrets for that he is immediately remorseful about when someone else reveals it to the Batfamily for him.

Eh, it's more like I'm arguing that no writer should have to follow this dictate unless they want to. Right now, it's still her most important appearance, and besides the age supposition, there's still plenty of area to develop her some more. Nothing new has happened in B&R:E for the character; I was however saying that I think making her Cassandra's mother, particularly in the actually kind of intriguing way that was handled in the last few issues of Cass's run as Batgirl, seems like it has more interesting implications than what we wound up getting via DeFalco, who I actually respect, being made editorial's hatchet man.

Though I really don't need Shiva to be Cass's mother. I like the idea and the way it was executed, but it isn't really needed. I do kinds want Shiva to take back that place as the combination powerful threat/excellent teacher schtick she had in the 2000s, what with still being a ruthless adrenaline junkie of an assassin while simultaneously training a Robin, a Batgirl, and retraining Batman himself. It made her a fun wild card, and I think made her nickname more appropriate, since she was "creating" heroes while also "destroying" them.

Now, I'm just hoping we get to see the original 90's generation of Bat family members spend serious panel time together. Steph and Tim had like one page of interaction in Eternal; I hope we see Tim being utterly amazed and maybe even intimidated by Cass's skills here, and there'd be nothing wrong with sticking Spoiler in it too.

[Rac7d*]

If you're new, the original idea behind Cass's skills wa Stuart her father David raised her without any verbal input, instead focusing from birth on physical combat. As a result, Cass's brain was wired to the point where the language sections of her brain were focused on interpreting body language. She later had this changed a bit, so she could talk laconically and just barely read but could still read body language.

Currently, we don't know for the new version of her.

I did love how they displayed it here. Those were actually great POV shots, especially on the specific muscle clusters that could be read.

Oh I am new cass, but her fighting ability is legend
Though I guess I picture it working like this

[scary harpy]

Maybe they'll have Shiva as Cass's older sister maybe. Maybe a half sister, and they share the same mother.

What about Shiva's older sister? Maybe she's Cassandra's mother.

[heyevaxx]

Discussion continued from (Spoiler) Has Arrived in "Batman & Robin: Eternal" -- But Why?

... because there's enough evidence to suggest either case, but she's faster than a bullet, that much is a fact, actually it was even showed on Batgirl #34 she (literally) out-raced a bullet, and on Batgirl annual #1 Cass moved as a blur, indicating that if she's moving at her fastest she can't be visible to the human eye.

So Cassie's bullet dodging is some combination of body reading, peak human speed, and maybe experience in how people use guns in fire fights, sniping, etc. But I really need to see you argue, with scans, that "she's faster than a bullet." I looked at both issues you referenced and am unclear on how she outruns a bullet or she moved as a blur.

Can you post scans if you get time and point out her bullet racing and blurred movement? Sorry I'm being dense.

...people get angry, because these kinds of feats make their favourite characters look lame, but at the same time their not as ridiculous as it may sound, many other so called "street-levelers" perform many of the same feats: Black Panther, Daredevil, Captain America, Deathstroke, Batman, etc, from time to time, now, we can alaways ignore it, although i don't, at least not stuff that happens consistently, and Cassandra's speed was shown to be over the top, on a basis.

"Black Panther, Daredevil, Captain America, Deathstroke, Batman" >> all guys.

Was there ever a top street-leveler or any comic book fighter that was:
1. female
2. as popular as Cassandra Cain (e.g. the early 2000s)

I think her being a young female who's not huge and muscley rankles many comic fans.

[The Whovian]

So Cassie's bullet dodging is some combination of body reading, peak human speed, and maybe experience in how people use guns in fire fights, sniping, etc. But I really need to see you argue, with scans, that "she's faster than a bullet." I looked at both issues you referenced and am unclear on how she outruns a bullet or she moved as a blur.

Can you post scans if you get time and point out her bullet racing and blurred movement? Sorry I'm being dense.

Here's just one example:

[Carabas]

Here's just one example:

Cass is among my 5 favourite DC characters of all time, but I feel strongly that you can't always take superhero art literally, especially if it's in a style that is short on realism and high on exaggeration. Especially when the text explicitly says she's not superhuman in speed.

[The Whovian]

Cass is among my 5 favourite DC characters of all time, but I feel strongly that you can't always take superhero art literally, especially if it's in a style that is short on realism and high on exaggeration. Especially when the text explicitly says she's not superhuman in speed.

Actually, the text does support the art. The man narrating the story says (about Cass) "But she turned around and waited for them to shoot." And in the panels, you can see that the bullets are already fired at her before she moves out of the way.

[heyevaxx]

@Dark Knight1047
Thanks, I know those pages very, very well and would never argue against them in any way.

But I hadn't thought about the text you pointed out and what it implies. If she "turned around and waited for them to shoot" and then dodged. She may know exactly where the bullet will go based on her body reading, but the dodging is pure speed. Amazing!

But I'm really curious about Batgirl #34 showing her out-racing a bullet and in Batgirl Annual #1 her moving as a blur.

she's faster than a bullet, that much is a fact, actually it was even showed on Batgirl #34 she (literally) out-raced a bullet
and
on Batgirl annual #1 Cass moved as a blur, indicating that if she's moving at her fastest she can't be visible to the human eye.

[heyevaxx]

Cass is among my 5 favourite DC characters of all time, but I feel strongly that you can't always take superhero art literally, especially if it's in a style that is short on realism and high on exaggeration. Especially when the text explicitly says she's not superhuman in speed.

Re: Cass and superhuman speed, while she's not a meta-human or an alien, Cassandra Cain *displayed* superhuman qualities, in particular speed.

The analysis by 2 gov't agents and a gov't scientist from Batgirl #14 are pretty amazing:
* Super-speed up about 4.2
* Super-strength just under 2.6
* Serotonin level is off the charts, unique blood chemistry

Agent1: Calm down, John. She's meta-human, that's why.
Scientist: No. She's not. No metagene. I ran it twice.
Agent1: Are you nuts? Look at the tape, John. She's Bruce Lee on crack.
Agent2: Jim-- You're sure you've got her clocked at metahuman speed, right? Jim?
Agent1: Well... her individual moves are borderline human. It's the aggregate speed that's metahuman.

[The Whovian]

Re: Cass and superhuman speed, while she's not a meta-human or an alien, Cassandra Cain *displayed* superhuman qualities, in particular speed.

The analysis by 2 gov't agents and a gov't scientist from Batgirl #14 are pretty amazing:
* Super-speed up about 4.2
* Super-strength just under 2.6
* Serotonin level is off the charts, unique blood chemistry

Agent1: Calm down, John. She's meta-human, that's why.
Scientist: No. She's not. No metagene. I ran it twice.
Agent1: Are you nuts? Look at the tape, John. She's Bruce Lee on crack.
Agent2: Jim-- You're sure you've got her clocked at metahuman speed, right? Jim?
Agent1: Well... her individual moves are borderline human. It's the aggregate speed that's metahuman.

This was the page I was going to post as well, but after digging through 13 issues and not remembering what issue it was actually from, I gave up. Guess I should have looked through one more.

But yeah, this page explains it perfectly.

[The Whovian]

@Dark Knight1047
Thanks, I know those pages very, very well and would never argue against them in any way.

But I hadn't thought about the text you pointed out and what it implies. If she "But she turned around and waited for them to shoot" and then dodged. She may know exactly where the bullet will go based on her body reading, but the dodging is pure speed. Amazing!

But I'm really curious about Batgirl #34 showing her out-racing a bullet and in Batgirl Annual #1 her moving as a blur.

I think those two instances the artists were using creative licenses rather than what she's actually supposed to be doing. In the Annual, she looks like she's the Flash and we all know she isn't. It's just the artist.

[Sharpandpointies]

DC has always had this thing where if trained to truly insane levels - as in, past even Batman - the characters could pull off stuff past Batman's own capacity. Karate Kid being a stellar example of that. We also have stuff like Constantine Drakon's speed (not a metahuman, far beyond 'peak human' in speed), some feats of Richard Dragon back in the day, etc.

Cass, in her old series, just continued that trend with the bullet-timing. She has other completely ludicrous speedfeats that back it up - for example, in one of her issues she tosses a Batarang at a guy about to shoot a woman (who is something like 20+ feet from her), THEN realizes after she has already thrown the batarang that it's not going to make it in time, THEN sprints forward, outrunning her own Batarang, and takes the bullet.

In another scene, close to the end of her series and under Gabrych's writing, she basically dances around a group of League of Assassin members she is protecting, collecting shuriken out of the air with her hands. Shuriken, I note, thrown at the League members from three different directions, from ambush. She snags a handful of them, and the League members have enough time to say 'huh?'

For another speed (and precision) scene, when a Joker-ized Shadowthief throws shuriken at herself, Oracle, and Steph, Cass waits until the shuriken are a couple of inches from all of their faces (with a little smile on her face), then catches the stars by sticking her thumb, forefinger, and middle finger through one shuriken apiece. Same hand.

There's a time (Batgirl Annual) where she and Batman surprise someone in a corner apartment. That person jumps out the window and runs away along the ledge. Batman heads for that window to follow. Cass jumps out the window in the OTHER exterior wall of the corner room, runs around the corner (on the ledge), past the window from which Batman is still exiting, and continues the pursuit.

Her old series is full of meta-level speed stuff if one looks for it.

[Galerion]

Well Im not much of a DC reader but as soon as I read that Batman & Robin Eternal is bringing back Cassandra Cain I had to check it out and so far I really like it. Will definitely stay on my pull list and I hope to see more Cassandra awesomeness

[The Whovian]

Well Im not much of a DC reader but as soon as I read that Batman & Robin Eternal is bringing back Cassandra Cain I had to check it out and so far I really like it. Will definitely stay on my pull list and I hope to see more Cassandra awesomeness

Yep. She may not be the "old" Cass that we all love, but so far she has been presented as a very highly skilled martial artist who is above everyone she has fought so far.