Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[Punisher007]

It's why I've started to loathe hearing the term "Mary Sue" used, it's been so completely twisted beyond it's original meaning that it has no real meaning anymore. These days, it mostly just translates to "catch word that I'll throw out for a character that I don't personally like." And, physical strength is NOT the sole parameter.

If Cass were truly a "Mary Sue," then she'd be the best fighter, and the best detective (or at least one of the best), become an expert/adept at undercover work, have great social skills, be great with computers, a natural-born leader, and have no real character flaws or major mistakes, etc. And she'd accomplish all of this incredibly quickly after showing up. Basically she'd be Bruce, Dick, Tim, Barbara, etc all wrapped into one, but be as good at it or even better than them with no real explanation.

But of all of those, her only immediate skill was fighting (which is all that she'd been trained practically since birth to do, so it makes sense). She had to work at the other stuff, and it took time/effort on her part.

[Lhynn]

Mary sue is a perfect character with fake flaws, that is more capable than anyone else yet her ranking is low.

Cassandra is not a mary sue, tho she has had obscene plot armor very often.

[Punisher007]

Pretty much every Bat-character has that.

[Carabas]

Mary sue is a perfect character with fake flaws, that is more capable than anyone else yet her ranking is low.

Cassandra is not a mary sue, tho she has had obscene plot armor very often.

Obscene plot armor is a trait the entire Bat-clan shares. I'd even say it's basically a basic requirement to surviving more than three issues as a superhero, whether you're a puny human or godly Kryptonian.

[Lhynn]

Alright, explain to me one instance plot armor more blatant than getting bursted down with a machine gun and no bullet ever landing near a deadly area, or being able to listen to something that moves faster than the speed of sound, or being able to outfight an alien god that can move and act at speeds superiors than the speed of light.
I get that shes a good fighter, but jumping in her defense is insane. especially considering other characters like steph, jason or tim have paid dearly for much smaller lapses in judgement.

She may not be a mary sue, but she has been a writers pet about as much as bruce and damian have. And far more than any other member of the batfamily ever has. Excluding maybe harper.

[lucius121]

Alright, explain to me one instance plot armor more blatant than getting bursted down with a machine gun and no bullet ever landing near a deadly area, or being able to listen to something that moves faster than the speed of sound, or being able to outfight an alien god that can move and act at speeds superiors than the speed of light.
I get that shes a good fighter, but jumping in her defense is insane. especially considering other characters like steph, jason or tim have paid dearly for much smaller lapses in judgement.

She may not be a mary sue, but she has been a writers pet about as much as bruce and damian have. And far more than any other member of the batfamily ever has. Excluding maybe harper.

In the first issue of batman, he was steering an aeroplane from the outside, while riding on the roof.

Jason somehow managed to defeat Lady Shiva I h2h combat.

Dick was able to dodge a bullet fired at him at point blank range having just survived jumping out of a 3rd floor window.

I could go on, picking certain instances where characters do ridiculous things, Cass is not the only in the bay family to get this treatment and she certainly isn't the worst offender.

[Carabas]

Alright, explain to me one instance plot armor more blatant than getting bursted down with a machine gun and no bullet ever landing near a deadly area, or being able to listen to something that moves faster than the speed of sound, or being able to outfight an alien god that can move and act at speeds superiors than the speed of light.

Batman's able to jump from a rooftop and swing away on a batline with one arm, and somehow keeps his arm attached to his body and not even have it dislocated.

Also, Batman has also dodged machinegun fire, has listened to things that are faster than the speed of sound (every superhero who has ever teamed up with the Flash has done that), and has given Superman a good fight.

[Lhynn]

In the first issue of batman, he was steering an aeroplane from the outside, while riding on the roof.

Yeah, hes batman, its the kind of stupid crap he pulls. I mentioned him before.

Jason somehow managed to defeat Lady Shiva I h2h combat.

Bringing up new 52 garbage now?

Dick was able to dodge a bullet fired at him at point blank range having just survived jumping out of a 3rd floor window.

Not as much dodging a bullet as merely getting out of the way. Its not exactly an impossible feat, especially considering its more you being faster than the other guy, not than the bullet.

I could go on, picking certain instances where characters do ridiculous things

Im sure you could, but none of that defined those characters, while it did define cassandra.

Cass is not the only in the bay family to get this treatment and she certainly isn't the worst offender.

Nope, thatd be bruce. But she is a very close second, and had and the ratio issue/jumping the shark does not favor her either.

[lucius121]

none of those moments defined the characters I mentioned and the moments you mentioned did not define Cass for anyone except you. I could mention Tim's ridiculous intellectual achievements or Stephs apparent hacking prowess but there is no point I don't resent these characters for their heroic feats, I enjoy them.

[Lhynn]

Dont resent them either. As for tims ridiculous intellectual achievements, they were set up, the preparation was there and not shown in a flashback when convenient. We had years of this set up, we saw his mind go from being a normals kid one to an analitical one that could outthink pretty much anyone, he gained this tru effort and experience.
We see him developing his skills with computers, trying and failing at new things, like carring a single hand keyboard and listening on internet search results with voice programs, we constantly see him try and fail until he finds something that works.
We see steph in over her head, we see her coping with her mistakes and growing due to them. We see cass kicking ass in ways that would make spiderman jealous and his spidersense look like a useless gimmick.

Again, you seem to believe im saying shes a bad character, this is not the case. But she did nuke the fridge plenty of times in her solo, so many times that it basically became her character and role within the batfamily.

[heyevaxx]

Since this is an appreciation thread I thought I'd do some appreciating.

I'm very happy with Cassandra's Detective Comics intro! I thought JTIV wrote Cass well in the BRE issues he scripted and he came through again with DC934:
1) Cass protects children
2) By her appearance and body language she intimidates just like Batman
3) Cass is a great fighter
4) She shows compassion
5) And she only says a single word

I love her dramatic landing pic plus her hugging a kid and holding her hand over her eyes and saying "Safe" - classic Cass Cain!

The last Gotham super you want to see when slave trading children:


What's old is new - Cass has empathy, especially for children:

[Lhynn]

Yeah, her appearance on detective comics 934 was great.

[lucius121]

I'm interested to see where the character goes, looking forward to her interaction with Batwoman. I may even get used to that earless kinky mask she wears.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, hes batman, its the kind of stupid crap he pulls. I mentioned him before..

And here's the basic crux of the argument that Cass is a mary sue. Cass can't do the same impossible things that every other Bat does...because reasons.

[Caivu]

I'm interested to see where the character goes, looking forward to her interaction with Batwoman. I may even get used to that earless kinky mask she wears.

I've been wondering how Cass will react to their last names being basically identical. I could also see it as a starting point for Cass learning to read.