Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[Assam]

Poor JPV, he is the one to most likely fall into obscurity with time, pretty unfair after a 100 solo, is Dennis O'Neil still writting, maybe he can save him.

While I don't think JPV is as secure as the Robins and Batgirls (Really, if Tynion can just protect Cass and Steph until the editorial regime changes, I think they're in the clear for good) or even Kate or Helena, I'd say he still he's less likely to become obscure and disappear again than the Nu52 additions.

Also, DC sadly doesn't see importance in long running solos.

Cass's 73, Bart Allen's 89, Kon-El's 100, and Tim's almost 200 saying hi to that.

[millernumber1]

While I don't think JPV is as secure as the Robins and Batgirls (Really, if Tynion can just protect Cass and Steph until the editorial regime changes, I think they're in the clear for good) or even Kate or Helena, I'd say he still he's less likely to become obscure and disappear again than the Nu52 additions.

Also, DC sadly doesn't see importance in long running solos.

Cass's 73, Bart Allen's 89, Kon-El's 100, and Tim's literal hundreds saying hi to that.

I would agree that JPV seems like he's here at least as a supporting character for a good long chunk, and hooray for that!

I personally think that the ranking of DC's Batfamily girls is as follows:

Babs (RAGE)
Harley Quinn
Catwoman

about 100 places filled with empty space (to match the empty space in editorial's head)

Kate

about 20 empty spots

Helena
Cass
Steph

Reasons: Babs obviously is their fave. We can go into reasons for this, but I think we all know that it's because "iconic."

Harley is actually selling better than Babs, but she's so divorced from the Batfamily I'm not sure if she doesn't belong with Dinah in her own category. But she doesn't have "Bat" in her name, and since Connor and Palmiotti are leaving, I'm pretty sure she's going to drop significantly, though I don't know if she'll stabilize below Babs or not.

Selina is clearly super important to King and the main book (which is why I think she doesn't have a solo, despite sustaining a solo all the way through the n52). Since she's an antihero, I think she's probably lower in priority than Babs, but we'll have to see where she falls out during King's run.

The 100 places is also obvious. Because reasons.

Kate, obviously, got her own solo. And she's been a huge PR character for DC over the past decade, so I think she's definitely a priority for them. Reason I'm putting her below the 100 places of stupidity is because I don't think the series is getting the buzz or push that indicates it's really a priority for DC. That's obviously impressionistic, but just the way I'm reading things.

20 more places of stupidity.

Helena is probably going to drop below Cass and Steph once Seeley's off Nightwing. She's only up there because she's pretty close to a main character in two books right now, one of which is a really solid seller (Nightwing).

I think Cass is has a bit of an edge for DC right now because she's actually regularly expected to show up in Tec every two weeks. She's also gotten a bit more buzz at recent cons as far as I can tell in panels. Good on you, Cass fans.

And, of course, Steph. Now, the reason I'm not despairing, is because Tynion clearly has plans for Steph. But I think, much as I will defend it to the death, the current storyline for Steph as an outsider to the team really hurts her in the fandom, because a big chunk of fans are mad at her, another chunk is mad at Tynion, and another chunk is mad that they're not seeing her regularly (that one would be me).

[Frontier]

I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.

[millernumber1]

I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.

That's basically what I said, but punchier.

[Frontier]

That's basically what I said, but punchier.

I try my best .

[Assam]

I would agree that JPV seems like he's here at least as a supporting character for a good long chunk, and hooray for that!

Hooray indeed. He'll most likely never have a solo again, but it's nice to just to have him around. (Now if only Tynion would give Cass her first friend back)

I personally think that the ranking of DC's Batfamily girls is as follows:

Babs (RAGE)
Harley Quinn
Catwoman

about 100 places filled with empty space (to match the empty space in editorial's head)

Kate

about 20 empty spots

Helena
Cass
Steph

Reasons: Babs obviously is their fave. We can go into reasons for this, but I think we all know that it's because "iconic."

Harley is actually selling better than Babs, but she's so divorced from the Batfamily I'm not sure if she doesn't belong with Dinah in her own category. But she doesn't have "Bat" in her name, and since Connor and Palmiotti are leaving, I'm pretty sure she's going to drop significantly, though I don't know if she'll stabilize below Babs or not.

Selina is clearly super important to King and the main book (which is why I think she doesn't have a solo, despite sustaining a solo all the way through the n52). Since she's an antihero, I think she's probably lower in priority than Babs, but we'll have to see where she falls out during King's run.

The 100 places is also obvious. Because reasons.

Kate, obviously, got her own solo. And she's been a huge PR character for DC over the past decade, so I think she's definitely a priority for them. Reason I'm putting her below the 100 places of stupidity is because I don't think the series is getting the buzz or push that indicates it's really a priority for DC. That's obviously impressionistic, but just the way I'm reading things.

20 more places of stupidity.

Helena is probably going to drop below Cass and Steph once Seeley's off Nightwing. She's only up there because she's pretty close to a main character in two books right now, one of which is a really solid seller (Nightwing).

I think Cass is has a bit of an edge for DC right now because she's actually regularly expected to show up in Tec every two weeks. She's also gotten a bit more buzz at recent cons as far as I can tell in panels. Good on you, Cass fans.

And, of course, Steph. Now, the reason I'm not despairing, is because Tynion clearly has plans for Steph. But I think, much as I will defend it to the death, the current storyline for Steph as an outsider to the team really hurts her in the fandom, because a big chunk of fans are mad at her, another chunk is mad at Tynion, and another chunk is mad that they're not seeing her regularly (that one would be me).

I think your rankings are pretty spot on from that perspective, although I'd throw in Kate with the top group, but two things I'd like to add:

First, I think part of the reason Cass gets more buzz at cons is because there's more specific things we want for Cass. Just look at all the things that we listed off wanting to see during League of Shadows and there's a clear direction going forward we'd like for her. With Steph, it's a bit trickier to ask for things since she doesn't have anything as BIG as the adoption to bring back, she's in her "permanent" role already, her relationship with Babs wasn't as deep as Cass's, etc. and so while we obviously want to see more stories with her, there's far fewer things to really get hyped about regarding potential status quo changes.

Second, while that may be how DC sees things, it's not how I'd say their overall treatment went this year. I'd say that goes:

Babs
Harley
Kate
Catwoman
Steph
Helena
Cass

Steph's higher placement being because of getting that spot on YJ.

[Assam]

I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.

I liked the Sirens as a kid, but over the years as I've grown and they've become overexposed, I've grown to dislike one of them, have irritation toward another, and be indifferent toward the third.

[Aahz]

Kate, obviously, got her own solo. And she's been a huge PR character for DC over the past decade, so I think she's definitely a priority for them. Reason I'm putting her below the 100 places of stupidity is because I don't think the series is getting the buzz or push that indicates it's really a priority for DC. That's obviously impressionistic, but just the way I'm reading things.

At least in rebirth she got probably the most push of all the female characters, the lack of buzz is probably due to the not terribly exciting first arc of her series and the lack of a really big name creative team on the book.

[Frontier]

Hooray indeed. He'll most likely never have a solo again, but it's nice to just to have him around. (Now if only Tynion would give Cass her first friend back)

You never know sometimes .

Second, while that may be how DC sees things, it's not how I'd say their overall treatment went this year. I'd say that goes:

Babs
Harley
Kate
Catwoman
Steph
Helena
Cass

Steph's higher placement being because of getting that spot on YJ.

If we're talking overall treatment, I would put Catwoman a little above or even with Kate.

I liked the Sirens as a kid, but over the years as I've grown and they've become overexposed, I've grown to dislike one of them, have irritation toward another, and be indifferent toward the third.

It's the complete opposite for me. I've grown to love and appreciate each one of them more and more .

Of course, as a kid I loved them in B:TAS and beyond so all my subsequent reading of them in the comics just bolstered that.

[millernumber1]

I think your rankings are pretty spot on from that perspective, although I'd throw in Kate with the top group, but two things I'd like to add:

First, I think part of the reason Cass gets more buzz at cons is because there's more specific things we want for Cass. Just look at all the things that we listed off wanting to see during League of Shadows and there's a clear direction going forward we'd like for her. With Steph, it's a bit trickier to ask for things since she doesn't have anything as BIG as the adoption to bring back, she's in her "permanent" role already, her relationship with Babs wasn't as deep as Cass's, etc. and so while we obviously want to see more stories with her, there's far fewer things to really get hyped about regarding potential status quo changes.

Second, while that may be how DC sees things, it's not how I'd say their overall treatment went this year. I'd say that goes:

Babs
Harley
Kate
Catwoman
Steph
Helena
Cass

Steph's higher placement being because of getting that spot on YJ.

Ah, I was only really thinking of the comics. But the YJ spot does make sense in terms of boosting Steph up.

It's possible Kate is on the top tier, but I feel like that push has failed to really break her into the range DC would like to see (she's selling below Babs despite being a much newer series, and neither of them are selling in the Nightwing range of 30,000 per issue, which I would think is the range expected for a really strong mid-level character). DC's top-selling female solo books is, of course, Wonder Woman, at 40,000, and Tec is at 50,000. I would really love ONE of DC's Bat-female family members to consistently hit 30,000 like Nightwing, but I haven't seen it happen in a really long time.

It's true that Steph fans have gotten most of what we can realistically ask for - Steph back, her relationship with Tim restored. The things we want that are still unmet are either sort of happening (relationship with Cass - but that needs a MASSIVE boost), or almost certainly not going to happen (her time as Robin and Batgirl acknowledged, even if they refuse to put her back in one of those roles). The most I think I would ask for, other than her own plotline (which she does have) is that she 1) appear in other titles (which I asked King to do, but he seemed to view Steph as off limits) and 2) a League of Batgirls books, which I think should be a no-brainer, since their current Batgirl strategy isn't really doing them any favors, but NOPE.

I liked the Sirens as a kid, but over the years as I've grown and they've become overexposed, I've grown to dislike one of them, have irritation toward another, and be indifferent toward the third.

I don't mind the sirens per se, but I do think Harley definitely sucks all the air out of the room. And I can't blame DC for that - the sales for the books are ridiculously high, and it would be dumb of them to ignore that (though overexposing her as a result is probably not their best move). As for Poison Ivy...well...yeah.

At least in rebirth she got probably the most push of all the female characters, the lack of buzz is probably due to the not terribly exciting first arc of her series and the lack of a really big name creative team on the book.

Maybe this is bad, but I think Epting on art was a pretty huge name, and it didn't seem to really "move the needle," (ugh, I hate playing into that narrative, especially since unlike a lot of Kate's fans, I think Epting's art was the strongest part of the first arc).

It's the complete opposite for me. I've grown to love and appreciate each one of them more and more .

Of course, as a kid I loved them in B:TAS and beyond so all my subsequent reading of them in the comics just bolstered that.

I didn't grow up with the animated series, which I think probably explains why I have my specific nostalgia points and gaps. Harley Quinn is definitely one of them.

[DamianBane]

I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.

I agree, this seems to be the case with DC

[millernumber1]

I agree, this seems to be the case with DC

Which is dumb, because I think it's not doing much more than surviving. I want the girls, ALL of them, including Babs, but especially my faves Steph and Cass, to thrive! I want them to be as important as Robin and Nightwing (maybe too ambitious, but that's what I want).

[Frontier]

I don't mind the sirens per se, but I do think Harley definitely sucks all the air out of the room. And I can't blame DC for that - the sales for the books are ridiculously high, and it would be dumb of them to ignore that (though overexposing her as a result is probably not their best move). As for Poison Ivy...well...yeah.

Harley is definitely an attention-stealer or someone who hogs the spotlight, but that's pretty much by design (and something she shares with her erstwhile lover).

Maybe this is bad, but I think Epting on art was a pretty huge name, and it didn't seem to really "move the needle," (ugh, I hate playing into that narrative, especially since unlike a lot of Kate's fans, I think Epting's art was the strongest part of the first arc).

I think Epting is a fairly big name in comics, but not the kind of artist who drives sales up.

Which is dumb, because I think it's not doing much more than surviving. I want the girls, ALL of them, including Babs, but especially my faves Steph and Cass, to thrive! I want them to be as important as Robin and Nightwing (maybe too ambitious, but that's what I want).

I think, ideally, DC should be pushing and making all the ladies in the Batfamily as big, major, and significant and not downplay some for others. Especially considering the different kinds of audiences and stories they can appeal too.

At the same time, the major push they've given characters like Babs and the Sirens primarily has worked demonstrably to their favor. As far as general audiences are concerned I think Batgirl is as important as Robin and Nightwing.

[sakuyamons]

It's the complete opposite for me. I've grown to love and appreciate each one of them more and more .

Of course, as a kid I loved them in B:TAS and beyond so all my subsequent reading of them in the comics just bolstered that.

I like the three of them too Gotham City Sirens was also one of the first comics I read, I even have one trade of it signed. I'd be on board with a Sirens book written properly, because I like the concept of nu52 Harley in the sense she's free from Joker, but I don't like the way Palmiotti turned her into DC's deadpool. I liked Cycle of Life and Death and I wish I got something Ivy-related soon, and Selina is Selina or, how King's Batman likes to say: Cat is Cat.

[Assam]

At least in rebirth she got probably the most push of all the female characters, the lack of buzz is probably due to the not terribly exciting first arc of her series and the lack of a really big name creative team on the book.

And I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me.

You never know sometimes .

Hey, I woudln't complain...I mean I would because it would be someone other than Cass getting a book, but I still love JPV and I'd read it.

If we're talking overall treatment, I would put Catwoman a little above or even with Kate.

I put Kate above because she got a solo, is still the most pushed 'Tec team member and getting merch, but if you factor in Gotham by Gaslight, I guess adding that on to King's run equals them out.

It's possible Kate is on the top tier, but I feel like that push has failed to really break her into the range DC would like to see (she's selling below Babs despite being a much newer series, and neither of them are selling in the Nightwing range of 30,000 per issue, which I would think is the range expected for a really strong mid-level character).

Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel.

DC's top-selling female solo books is, of course, Wonder Woman, at 40,000, and Tec is at 50,000. I would really love ONE of DC's Bat-female family members to consistently hit 30,000 like Nightwing, but I haven't seen it happen in a really long time.

Cass and Nu52Babs both regularly sold over 30,000 (at their best, both did well over that), but given how far Babs has fallen, her ongoing currently having the lowest sales of any Batgirl ongoing and not too far above what the Beechen Cass mini ended at, I think it's safe to say Babs's prior success was only due to the overall inflated sales of the Nu52, Simone's name, and then the initial draw of Burnside. Contrary to what some think, I don't think making Babs more serious would raise her sales at all, but simply just lose her even more readers, the ones who REALLY like Burnside.

I don't know if Cass could still regularly pull over 30,000, but I do confidently believe she could outsell all the currently failing Bat books.

It's true that Steph fans have gotten most of what we can realistically ask for - Steph back, her relationship with Tim restored. The things we want that are still unmet are either sort of happening (relationship with Cass - but that needs a MASSIVE boost)

Cass's next arc is about her relationship with Bruce, hopefully Steph's next arc will be about her relationship with Cass. Might actually be interesting for her to have the focus there. While I'd obviously prefer it to be on Cass, most of their Pre-FP relationship was developed on Cass's "turf." Could be neat to see that spun around.

2) a League of Batgirls books, which I think should be a no-brainer, since their current Batgirl strategy isn't really doing them any favors, but NOPE.

See, I'm not sure Cass on her own could still regularly pull 30K, but I think this definitely could. And if done right, maybe, just MAYBE, the completely shattered base that is the Batgirl fandom could start being elmers glued back together.

I agree, this seems to be the case with DC

2017 really does present how sad it is to be a Cass fan in some ways. It's almost without question the best overall year she's had since 2005 (12 years ago!) and yet she was still treated significantly worse than the Robins, the other Batgirls, the Sirens, Kate, Helena, Terry and Duke.