Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[Punisher007]

Because it's a spy/espionage book, which would be a good place for David Cain and his badass daughter to appear in. He is a mercenary/assassin after all. Or Cass could be one of SPYRAL's agents, or going after SPYRAL herself when she meets Dick and Helena B, etc. Point is, there are any number of ways that you could plausible introduce her in that book.

[catbatfan]

Because it's a spy/espionage book, which would be a good place for David Cain and his badass daughter to appear in. He is a mercenary/assassin after all. Or Cass could be one of SPYRAL's agents, or going after SPYRAL herself when she meets Dick and Helena B, etc. Point is, there are any number of ways that you could plausible introduce her in that book.

I hope not. I'm not interested in reading about a gun-toting Dick Grayson or the bizarre New 52 version of Helena Bertinelli.

Gotham Academy would have been a better place for Cass. Bruce Wayne's adopted mute assassin daughter enrolled in prep school? Yes, please!!!

[Blight]

[catbatfan]

Sue from DC Women Kicking Ass feels confident about a New 52 Cass return (debut?).

[godisawesome]

Make sense. If Stephanie Brown can come back, it's likely that Snyder and co. are working on a pitch that will appease the more superstitious executives that she can come back. It will almost certainly be a debut as opposed to a return, just because of the One True Batgirl mandate. But as long as it remains an in house Bat-project, I have confidence they'll be okay. They just need to avoid letting someone outside the office try for it, or we'll get something like the Helena Bertinelli-I mean Wayne fiasco or Scott Lobdell.

[catbatfan]

Maybe Cass could be the new Robin? If she does come back, I hope they go back to her silent assassin roots. I hated how she could suddenly talk in complete sentences after One Year Later. I liked that she was silent and deadly, and when she did say something, it was usually significant.

[Blight]

Sue from DC Women Kicking Ass feels confident about a New 52 Cass return (debut?).

Something was probably said to her. Maybe she asked Snyder, Burnham, or someone and got an answer, but couldn't fully acknowledge it as a quote for a later announcement (NYCC? C2E2? Emerald City?). Hopefullly, editorial doesn't change their minds on the issue at the last minute. In any case, here's the sketch she got from Burnham too:

[catbatfan]

Although I am not a huge fan of Chris Burnham's art in general, I like his Black Bat. I love how it's simply a redesign of her Batgirl costume but creepier and with more face.

[Agent Z]

Here's something that I've been curious about and hope I can get an answer for; does anyone think that the reason DC keeps Cass in limbo is because of a perceived lack of marketability of her origin?

Here's what I mean: Cass' backstory is that she was trained from a tender age to became a killing machine. This training involved depriving her of human speech and most social contact and shooting her to hone her reflexes. She then kills a man at the age of eight (the usual age for when Bruce lost his parents). This origin is in contrast with most members of the Bat-family who are witnesses to or victims of crime, while Cass becomes a hero to atone for a crime she committed. Imagine trying to show this backstory in the Paul Dini series (which was fairly dark itself). Or even in the Nolan movies? And then there's the fact that her mother sired her solely for the purpose of dying by Cass' hands for not killing the man who killed her sister. I've heard complaints about how certain things in comics can't be adapted to different mediums and maybe DC feels this way about Cass' character. I hope I've made myself as understandable as possible.

[heyevaxx]

@cheetah
Good post! I hadn't thought of the contrast between Cass and the other Gotham Family members with her pivotal event being her committing a crime vs everyone else watching or being a crime victim.

This might get TL;DR but I think Cassandra Cain (my 2nd fave comic char) and DC might not have a good fit. Plus, if they bring her back it might be more upsetting for old Cass fans than just having her staying retired.

I'm no expert but DC seems to focus and develop more sexualized, violent and "simple" female characters in comparison to Marvel. I think Harley Quinn and the Nu52 Catwoman are great examples.

HQ was pretty nutty, violent and (of course) highly sexualized pre-52 and post-52 it seems to me she's amped up even more.

And my #1 fave Catwoman went from a shades of gray, mercurial anti-hero who played by her own rules and was more sensually manipulative than overtly sexual to an eye-scratching, ultra-violent, hyper-sexual (sex with Batman in 1st 2 issues), stupidly reckless (strong arm robbery in broad daylight in street clothes, face uncovered) fool. Selina was changed into a sex-pot, thieving simpleton.

Now for the Nu52 Harley and Selina there may be exceptions where they have some subtlety or nuance. I can say for Selina that there aren't any or they are drowned out in Catwoman's ridiculous characterization.

How would Cass fit into this Nu52? Pre-52 Cassandra is introverted, haunted by her murder as an 8 year old, intense, occasional dead pan (and maybe unintentional) humor and flashes of teenage girlishness (usually with her BFF, Steph).

An issue for DC is how to have the world's greatest or almost greatest martial artist and swordswoman fit in with non-superpowered Gotham goodies and baddies. Batman is supposed to be the top dog for fighting in Gotham and I'm sure this makes execs (I'm talking about Dan here) scratch their head and think "but Batman has to be the best!" Dan DiDio has been quoted as liking the good/bad guy hierarchy that he grew up with in the 70s and Cass sure doesn't fit into that.

Secondly, Cassie is not sexualize-able in the least. She may be the least sexual female Gotham headliner. In Justice League Elite #9 2005-05, Cass has a tender kiss with Coldcast after she reveals she's Batgirl and thinks they're about to die. In Batgirl on a cruise, Cass was put into a bikini and commented on how it's kind of dumb (despite the art). She sort of had a flirty relationship with Superboy. And she picked up a teen admirer in her own title and spent the day with him ending in a kiss. And that was it. She's not dating a lot like Tim Drake or Kara Zor-El.

How should DC handle brining back Cass, a female, full face masked, super assassin who has communication challenges? Why not rename her Strix and get rid of all that unwanted Cassandra Cain baggage! [/sarcasm] I was struck by the similarities between Strix and Cass. And it was depressing.

Pre-OYL Cass was hard to write for mainstream comics: thoughtful, intense, a great martial artist (best?) and acrobat (good as Catwoman?), handicapped with limited language and reading skills and supremely empathetic. Cassandra's childhood murder acts like a fusion generator powering her relentless quest to stop killing and baddies hurting innocents. She even goes overboard almost killing herself stopping a bad guy from killing another baddie in a cross fire! (from Batgirl #6)

If a DC writer or editor made the right product pitch to DiDio and his execs that seemed profitable, Cass would come back. I don't think Dan DiDio dislikes Cass so much he'd pass on higher sales. Money is what this is all about, not good art, stories and our favorite characters. Recently a DC guy said it was all about toys and merchandise and boys buy toys while girls don't (paraphrasing his words). Since that's where the money is, DC focuses on their male demographic (i'm guessing 13-30). Female leads, especially nuanced, subtle, complex females are not likely to get investment from DC.

DC may have learned their lesson with Catwoman. They drove Selina into the ground until she became the laughing stock of the Gotham reading community. Now they're handing her writing over to a comic new comer who's a well regarded novelist. Will DC "see the light" with Cass and bring her back right, in a way that old schoolers like me and new comic buyers will go for? Maybe not, Selina is a 75 year old legend that most non-comic readers know of or at least have heard of. Poor Cassie is just known in the comics world and mostly in the Gotham scene. She might not have the heft for a comeback or re-write like Selina's getting.

Ok, that was depressing, I think I read an old pre-Puckett or a Puckett Cass comic to cheer up.

[Lorendiac]

Here's something that I've been curious about and hope I can get an answer for; does anyone think that the reason DC keeps Cass in limbo is because of a perceived lack of marketability of her origin?

Frankly -- no. I think they keep her in limbo because Dan DiDio just plain doesn't like her.

If her origin is a problem, they could always modify it. The New 52 certainly provides ample excuse for rewriting a few details as required. For instance, removing that part about "as a cute little girl, she actually killed a man on Cain's orders before she quite understood the significance of what she was doing." And the part about "Shiva was her biological mother all along" was a very late retcon in the last year or so of Cass's solo series, as I recall, so that could easily be tossed out the window as well, without ruining the core concept.

And these details would also be easy to revise if she were being adapted for a Dini-style cartoon or a Nolan-style movie. Comic book origin stories often get modified (or heavily rewritten) when the characters are being used in other mediums of expression. (For instance, in the comics, Ra's al Ghul and his fanatical followers had nothing whatsoever to do with Bruce Wayne's origin story. And Victor Von Doom was in no way involved in the situation which caused the Fantastic Four to suddenly acquire strange powers after they'd been exposed to some weird cosmic radiation.)

If they aren't making serious use of Cassandra Cain, it's not because they couldn't possibly revise her origins to be a trifle less shocking -- it's because the policymakers don't want to even make the effort to find a way to make her a profitable asset in today's market!

[catbatfan]

^^ Agreed. You also have to consider how this same regime attempted to make Cassandra first evil and then irrelevant in the five or so years leading up to the New 52. Her origin story has nothing to do with why she hasn't yet appeared in the New 52.

[Agent Z]

@cheetah
Good post! I hadn't thought of the contrast between Cass and the other Gotham Family members with her pivotal event being her committing a crime vs everyone else watching or being a crime victim.

This might get TL;DR but I think Cassandra Cain (my 2nd fave comic char) and DC might not have a good fit. Plus, if they bring her back it might be more upsetting for old Cass fans than just having her staying retired.

I'm no expert but DC seems to focus and develop more sexualized, violent and "simple" female characters in comparison to Marvel. I think Harley Quinn and the Nu52 Catwoman are great examples.

HQ was pretty nutty, violent and (of course) highly sexualized pre-52 and post-52 it seems to me she's amped up even more.

And my #1 fave Catwoman went from a shades of gray, mercurial anti-hero who played by her own rules and was more sensually manipulative than overtly sexual to an eye-scratching, ultra-violent, hyper-sexual (sex with Batman in 1st 2 issues), stupidly reckless (strong arm robbery in broad daylight in street clothes, face uncovered) fool. Selina was changed into a sex-pot, thieving simpleton.

Now for the Nu52 Harley and Selina there may be exceptions where they have some subtlety or nuance. I can say for Selina that there aren't any or they are drowned out in Catwoman's ridiculous characterization.

How would Cass fit into this Nu52? Pre-52 Cassandra is introverted, haunted by her murder as an 8 year old, intense, occasional dead pan (and maybe unintentional) humor and flashes of teenage girlishness (usually with her BFF, Steph).

An issue for DC is how to have the world's greatest or almost greatest martial artist and swordswoman fit in with non-superpowered Gotham goodies and baddies. Batman is supposed to be the top dog for fighting in Gotham and I'm sure this makes execs (I'm talking about Dan here) scratch their head and think "but Batman has to be the best!" Dan DiDio has been quoted as liking the good/bad guy hierarchy that he grew up with in the 70s and Cass sure doesn't fit into that.

Secondly, Cassie is not sexualize-able in the least. She may be the least sexual female Gotham headliner. In Justice League Elite #9 2005-05, Cass has a tender kiss with Coldcast after she reveals she's Batgirl and thinks they're about to die. In Batgirl on a cruise, Cass was put into a bikini and commented on how it's kind of dumb (despite the art). She sort of had a flirty relationship with Superboy. And she picked up a teen admirer in her own title and spent the day with him ending in a kiss. And that was it. She's not dating a lot like Tim Drake or Kara Zor-El.

How should DC handle brining back Cass, a female, full face masked, super assassin who has communication challenges? Why not rename her Strix and get rid of all that unwanted Cassandra Cain baggage! [/sarcasm] I was struck by the similarities between Strix and Cass. And it was depressing.

Pre-OYL Cass was hard to write for mainstream comics: thoughtful, intense, a great martial artist (best?) and acrobat (good as Catwoman?), handicapped with limited language and reading skills and supremely empathetic. Cassandra's childhood murder acts like a fusion generator powering her relentless quest to stop killing and baddies hurting innocents. She even goes overboard almost killing herself stopping a bad guy from killing another baddie in a cross fire! (from Batgirl #6)

If a DC writer or editor made the right product pitch to DiDio and his execs that seemed profitable, Cass would come back. I don't think Dan DiDio dislikes Cass so much he'd pass on higher sales. Money is what this is all about, not good art, stories and our favorite characters. Recently a DC guy said it was all about toys and merchandise and boys buy toys while girls don't (paraphrasing his words). Since that's where the money is, DC focuses on their male demographic (i'm guessing 13-30). Female leads, especially nuanced, subtle, complex females are not likely to get investment from DC.

DC may have learned their lesson with Catwoman. They drove Selina into the ground until she became the laughing stock of the Gotham reading community. Now they're handing her writing over to a comic new comer who's a well regarded novelist. Will DC "see the light" with Cass and bring her back right, in a way that old schoolers like me and new comic buyers will go for? Maybe not, Selina is a 75 year old legend that most non-comic readers know of or at least have heard of. Poor Cassie is just known in the comics world and mostly in the Gotham scene. She might not have the heft for a comeback or re-write like Selina's getting.

Ok, that was depressing, I think I read an old pre-Puckett or a Puckett Cass comic to cheer up.

I hear what you're saying. I think some of the things that really make Cass special are things that require more in-depth understanding. But I'm surprised that her martial arts skills would be considered a threat to Bruce when he outclasses her in everything else. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Dinah Lance, Lady Shiva and even Bronze Tiger outclass him.

[heyevaxx]

... But I'm surprised that her martial arts skills would be considered a threat to Bruce when he outclasses her in everything else. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Dinah Lance, Lady Shiva and even Bronze Tiger outclass him.

Oh, I agree that Cassandra's speech, reading, her pre-8 almost feral upbringing and her on the run/no parent 8-17 life creates plenty of disadvantages that more than counter-balance her top notch martial arts skills.

It's just that I'm guessing that for writers/editors/execs, having Cass as good or better than Bruce at fighting rubs them wrong.

E.g. back to DiDio saying he likes the comic characters and hierarchy he grew up with, Cass would not fit in the slightest in his comic world view. Nor did Steph. Nor did The Oracle. So we get old school Batgirl and just recently Steph coming back after some time off.

I think I've read that the DC team has also expressed frustration on how to fit an older, more skilled Dick Grayson into the Gotham world. Pre-52, Dick was getting closer and closer to Bruce in so many ways to the point where Dick took over the mantel while Bruce did Batman Inc. Now Dick is out of Gotham in a non-costumed role which let's Bruce completely fill the Batman role.

And while I think the DC folks might have a "Cass doesn't fit" issue, by no means do *I* think that. It's been shown many times that Cass can be written well. But as the end of her self title getting rocky and post-OYL have shown, DC has also failed spectacularly at keeping up a nuanced, complicated portrayal of Cass that's consistent.

I just can't get over the Strix similarities. It's almost as if the DC exec(s) wanted a Cass-like character without having to write her in a believable, satisfying way that synched with her pre-52 history. It might be better that we don't get Cass back if DC isn't confident they can do it successfully - meaning both profitably and satisfying to most Cass fans.

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

I hear what you're saying. I think some of the things that really make Cass special are things that require more in-depth understanding. But I'm surprised that her martial arts skills would be considered a threat to Bruce when he outclasses her in everything else. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Dinah Lance, Lady Shiva and even Bronze Tiger outclass him.

Cass is borderline a metahuman. And she has great skills so thats why she can put Bruce in real danger. She did beat Lady Shiva in a fight by breaking her neck after all. Bruce defeated Bronze Tiger so he should not be a problem for Batman. I don't know where you read that but I can tell you Dinah is below Bruce. Batman challenged her into a real fight following a provocation on her part but she declined it by looking down at the ground. Too scared I guess by seeing the expression on her face. New 52 BC, that version being Dinah Drake, has close to no chance at beating Batman in a fight. Thank you New 52. Either way, Cass and Lady Shiva are the ones who outclass Batman in fighting skills. Not Bronze Tiger nor BC.