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  1. #1786
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    Sorry, I donīt know what happened... Only few things..
    Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.

  2. #1787
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.
    Time ago DC made a bad decision with Cass.. Then they forget Cass and Steph.. and now the same with Steph for Timīs death.. The people, quickly hate one character for something that they canīt understand, even if her problems with batman are easy to understand..

    ..... We canīt change the past... Now we should focus in the present and future... For now the only possible future that I see is one book with
    Cass/Steph and Harper(unfortunately)..

    She(harper) was bisexual, no? I hope that this canīt be bad for Cass... I will cry if they try to make a lesbian couple with Harper and Cass.. Before that I support one CassxSteph..
    Last edited by adrikito; 09-21-2017 at 11:11 AM.

  3. #1788
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    Before that I support one CassxSteph..
    Well I'm definitely with you there, but sadly, Tynion is a TimXSteph shipper.

  4. #1789
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Well I'm definitely with you there, but sadly, Tynion is a TimXSteph shipper.
    Good for me though .

  5. #1790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Good for me though .
    Yes, you and Millernumber1 and plenty of others like the ship...so here's some new CassXSteph art that just came out.

    part 111.jpg

    part 222.jpg

  6. #1791
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  7. #1792
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Steph looks like she's getting a wicked sunburn in some of these .

  8. #1793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Steph looks like she's getting a wicked sunburn in some of these .
    BlackSteph has gotten pretty popular on Tumblr.

  9. #1794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.
    Looking back, that reasoning may have been the for the best. After OYL, DC had this strange eugenics kick. Those with evil parents, or who started out evil, had to be evil. That was the reasoning for Dragon Lady Cass, and it even swept up people like Jericho. Steph avoided that by in large, though they did have an issue where Batman said Steph needed to be watched because her Dad was a criminal

  10. #1795
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Looking back, that reasoning may have been the for the best. After OYL, DC had this strange eugenics kick. Those with evil parents, or who started out evil, had to be evil. That was the reasoning for Dragon Lady Cass, and it even swept up people like Jericho. Steph avoided that by in large, though they did have an issue where Batman said Steph needed to be watched because her Dad was a criminal
    Judging by what's happened to Chris Kent and Kon they still are.

  11. #1796
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.
    I know it would be nice to ignore everything Beechen did (except possibly the adoption), but I think a case can be made that Miller did to research, and his perspective on Cass's loyalties and position on being a Bat had evolved in the half decade between her statement that she was loyal to the Bat, and not Bruce, and her quitting Batgirl. Specifically, her torture by Deathstroke and Cain, and then Bruce's adoption, had strengthened the personal connection.

    Not saying definitely that it's the case, but I think, if you assume (as I do) that Miller was given a ton of summaries to work with, that's a plausible narrative to come up with. Unlike fans, Miller did not have the option of ignoring the Evil Cass era.

    Related question: I know this is probably not something you would ever choose to do, but if a writer was given the mandate by editorial that Cass was not going to be Batgirl, and Steph was going to be Batgirl, how would you be - not satisfied, but less furious - to see it handled? Fundamentally, I think you're not in favor of Steph being Batgirl, since there wasn't a really solid reason for Cass leaving the role, but if we accept that Cass was leaving the role, how would you not hate to see it handled? I ask because there seems to be no real way for Miller or Steph to really win in the Batgirl role change issue for Cass fans, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong, and there was a way for the transition to happen that wouldn't have infuriated Cass fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    BlackSteph has gotten pretty popular on Tumblr.
    I'm not a big fan of it, because it feels quite strongly that the art isn't of Steph.
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  12. #1797
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I know it would be nice to ignore everything Beechen did (except possibly the adoption), but I think a case can be made that Miller did to research, and his perspective on Cass's loyalties and position on being a Bat had evolved in the half decade between her statement that she was loyal to the Bat, and not Bruce, and her quitting Batgirl. Specifically, her torture by Deathstroke and Cain, and then Bruce's adoption, had strengthened the personal connection.

    Not saying definitely that it's the case, but I think, if you assume (as I do) that Miller was given a ton of summaries to work with, that's a plausible narrative to come up with. Unlike fans, Miller did not have the option of ignoring the Evil Cass era.
    I kinda think that idea is contradicted by Miller's statement from the time that he felt Cass had no more room to grow or develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Related question: I know this is probably not something you would ever choose to do, but if a writer was given the mandate by editorial that Cass was not going to be Batgirl, and Steph was going to be Batgirl, how would you be - not satisfied, but less furious - to see it handled? Fundamentally, I think you're not in favor of Steph being Batgirl, since there wasn't a really solid reason for Cass leaving the role, but if we accept that Cass was leaving the role, how would you not hate to see it handled? I ask because there seems to be no real way for Miller or Steph to really win in the Batgirl role change issue for Cass fans, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong, and there was a way for the transition to happen that wouldn't have infuriated Cass fans.
    Since it's a fun thought experiment, and you seem to be asking both, I'll answer both A) If I'd been put in Miller's shoes, and B) If I had to do it NOW, and skip over Cass to have the mantle go from Babs to Steph.

    A) This is definitely the easier one. Assuming that Morrison had to be left unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with:

    Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore.

    Issue 2 would see Cass and Steph going about their lives, contemplating all that they've gained and lost and the hardships they'd been put through. Meanwhile, Babs would learn of Tim's departure and starts worrying about him.

    Issue 3 would begin the transition, as Cass and Babs realize what Steph needs and that there's room for another Batgirl. Steph gets her new suit and codename, and Team Batgirl is officially formed.

    Issue 4 would be a fun romp with the newly named team and highlight some new toys and skills that Steph is rocking. However, we'd also see that something doesn't feel right to Cass, happy as she is for Steph. Meanwhile, Babs would have tracked down Tim, who would tell her that he's not coming home until he proves that Bruce is still alive. And because of the state he was in at the time (And the fact that he's...Tim) he wouldn't be the most polite about it.

    Issues 5 and 6 would have Team Batgirl team up with the new Batman and Robin. Babs, Cass, Steph, Dick and Damian have still never all been in the same room together, and dang it, I would make the most of those dynamics here. It would mostly just be a fun two parter taking full advantage of all the rich relationships that could be built there, but towards the end, there would be the scene that sets up the final issue of the opening arc: Cass would talk to Dick about what leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing meant to him and the two would have a nice bonding moment, maybe even bringing up how much they both lost in Bludhaven. (Remember, I may think Dick himself is a tool, but I love how he interacts with plenty of characters.) At the end, Babs would tell everyone about how she was recently in contact with Tim and how he's unable to let go of the idea that Bruce is still alive.

    This would take us to #7, which would be Cass's departure. Steph is complaining to Babs how she should let her just go kick Tim's butt and bring him home, but there's an alert. Team Batgirl is about to spring into action, but Cass says she wants to go alone. They're confused but they go along with it, Cass arriving at the site...and finding Shiva. Rather than fight for the umpteenth time (There's no point. Shiva knows she won't kill her), they'd talk, the themes of which harkening back to the Death Wish arc. Shiva would even learn that despite him being gone now, Cass was adopted by Batman. And Shiva would actually be happy for her, with even after everything Slade did to her, and despite what she was intended to be, she was still able to continue on and forge her own destiny. Those last few words specifically echoing what Dick had told her in the previous issue. Before Shiva goes (The reason she'd shown up at all WAS just to get Cass's attention having heard about the Slade fiasco) we'd get one more echo to the end of Cass's solo as Cass asks "Will you ever stop?" And to reflect how times are changing through the Batverse and everyone is growing, she'd give a simple "Perhaps."

    Steph is getting antsy, wondering where Cass is, and off-panel, we'd see Cass say, "Back." Through some casual banter, one of them would refer to Cass as 'Batgirl'. To which Cass would say, "No." Cue full splash page of Cass in her new costume, revealing her new name which would NOT be Black Bat. Steph and Babs are confused, and Cass explains (Through fewer words than I'm using here), that Batgirl was the first name she ever knew. And being Batgirl is what she needed. A chance to do good to make up for what she did as a child and a chance to become part of a family. But things have changed. She knows she's a good person, while still as dedicated as ever, and she IS part of a family. Batgirl used to be who she was. Now she is Cassandra Cain-Wayne, and anything else is just codename. And the man who made all this possible for her? She can't believe he's gone either. The Bat is what she fights for, but she still loves her dad. And it turns out she's never actually believed he was gone, but unlike Tim, she had no idea where to even start looking. Cass tells Steph that the Batgirl name is now her's alone to honor, and gets Tim's current location from Babs, saying she wants to help Tim on his search, adding on that she's also worried about what being alone is doing to him, knowing full well how damaging isolation can be. The other two argue against this, but her mind is made up. She bids both Steph and Babs a tearful farewell, including a peck on the cheek for Steph, promising that when she comes back, it'll be with both Tim and Bruce. The final page would be a collage of the most important moments in Cass's life, and the most important people in it.

    From there, she'd act as Tim's co-star in Red Robin, while Steph and Babs form what will be their status quo in Batgirl.

    And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get: A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl, but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion.

    Now as for how I'd handle Steph being made Batgirl today? Well that's a bit trickier, and this post already got WAY longer than I'd planned, so I'll write that out later.

    Hope anyone who read though all this liked it!

  13. #1798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I kinda think that idea is contradicted by Miller's statement from the time that he felt Cass had no more room to grow or develop.



    Since it's a fun thought experiment, and you seem to be asking both, I'll answer both A) If I'd been put in Miller's shoes, and B) If I had to do it NOW, and skip over Cass to have the mantle go from Babs to Steph.

    A) This is definitely the easier one. Assuming that Morrison had to be left unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with:

    Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore.

    Issue 2 would see Cass and Steph going about their lives, contemplating all that they've gained and lost and the hardships they'd been put through. Meanwhile, Babs would learn of Tim's departure and starts worrying about him.

    Issue 3 would begin the transition, as Cass and Babs realize what Steph needs and that there's room for another Batgirl. Steph gets her new suit and codename, and Team Batgirl is officially formed.

    Issue 4 would be a fun romp with the newly named team and highlight some new toys and skills that Steph is rocking. However, we'd also see that something doesn't feel right to Cass, happy as she is for Steph. Meanwhile, Babs would have tracked down Tim, who would tell her that he's not coming home until he proves that Bruce is still alive. And because of the state he was in at the time (And the fact that he's...Tim) he wouldn't be the most polite about it.

    Issues 5 and 6 would have Team Batgirl team up with the new Batman and Robin. Babs, Cass, Steph, Dick and Damian have still never all been in the same room together, and dang it, I would make the most of those dynamics here. It would mostly just be a fun two parter taking full advantage of all the rich relationships that could be built there, but towards the end, there would be the scene that sets up the final issue of the opening arc: Cass would talk to Dick about what leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing meant to him and the two would have a nice bonding moment, maybe even bringing up how much they both lost in Bludhaven. (Remember, I may think Dick himself is a tool, but I love how he interacts with plenty of characters.) At the end, Babs would tell everyone about how she was recently in contact with Tim and how he's unable to let go of the idea that Bruce is still alive.

    This would take us to #7, which would be Cass's departure. Steph is complaining to Babs how she should let her just go kick Tim's butt and bring him home, but there's an alert. Team Batgirl is about to spring into action, but Cass says she wants to go alone. They're confused but they go along with it, Cass arriving at the site...and finding Shiva. Rather than fight for the umpteenth time (There's no point. Shiva knows she won't kill her), they'd talk, the themes of which harkening back to the Death Wish arc. Shiva would even learn that despite him being gone now, Cass was adopted by Batman. And Shiva would actually be happy for her, with even after everything Slade did to her, and despite what she was intended to be, she was still able to continue on and forge her own destiny. Those last few words specifically echoing what Dick had told her in the previous issue. Before Shiva goes (The reason she'd shown up at all WAS just to get Cass's attention having heard about the Slade fiasco) we'd get one more echo to the end of Cass's solo as Cass asks "Will you ever stop?" And to reflect how times are changing through the Batverse and everyone is growing, she'd give a simple "Perhaps."

    Steph is getting antsy, wondering where Cass is, and off-panel, we'd see Cass say, "Back." Through some casual banter, one of them would refer to Cass as 'Batgirl'. To which Cass would say, "No." Cue full splash page of Cass in her new costume, revealing her new name which would NOT be Black Bat. Steph and Babs are confused, and Cass explains (Through fewer words than I'm using here), that Batgirl was the first name she ever knew. And being Batgirl is what she needed. A chance to do good to make up for what she did as a child and a chance to become part of a family. But things have changed. She knows she's a good person, while still as dedicated as ever, and she IS part of a family. Batgirl used to be who she was. Now she is Cassandra Cain-Wayne, and anything else is just codename. And the man who made all this possible for her? She can't believe he's gone either. The Bat is what she fights for, but she still loves her dad. And it turns out she's never actually believed he was gone, but unlike Tim, she had no idea where to even start looking. Cass tells Steph that the Batgirl name is now her's alone to honor, and gets Tim's current location from Babs, saying she wants to help Tim on his search, adding on that she's also worried about what being alone is doing to him, knowing full well how damaging isolation can be. The other two argue against this, but her mind is made up. She bids both Steph and Babs a tearful farewell, including a peck on the cheek for Steph, promising that when she comes back, it'll be with both Tim and Bruce. The final page would be a collage of the most important moments in Cass's life, and the most important people in it.

    From there, she'd act as Tim's co-star in Red Robin, while Steph and Babs form what will be their status quo in Batgirl.

    And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get: A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl, but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion.

    Now as for how I'd handle Steph being made Batgirl today? Well that's a bit trickier, and this post already got WAY longer than I'd planned, so I'll write that out later.

    Hope anyone who read though all this liked it!
    Now this is playing the long-game .

  14. #1799
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I kinda think that idea is contradicted by Miller's statement from the time that he felt Cass had no more room to grow or develop.
    I mean, I obviously disagree with that sentiment, but I do think that there was more than just Miller making that incorrect analysis of Cass's character path at the time. And Miller reading Cass's story wrong (or, which I think is more likely, reading the summaries given him by editorial wrong) doesn't mean he didn't do research. I'm not saying Miller's right (which is a very confusing thing for me to say, since Miller is also my name... ), but I don't think he did the book with no research. More like wrong research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Since it's a fun thought experiment, and you seem to be asking both, I'll answer both A) If I'd been put in Miller's shoes, and B) If I had to do it NOW, and skip over Cass to have the mantle go from Babs to Steph.

    A) This is definitely the easier one. Assuming that Morrison had to be left unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with:

    Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore.

    Issue 2 would see Cass and Steph going about their lives, contemplating all that they've gained and lost and the hardships they'd been put through. Meanwhile, Babs would learn of Tim's departure and starts worrying about him.

    Issue 3 would begin the transition, as Cass and Babs realize what Steph needs and that there's room for another Batgirl. Steph gets her new suit and codename, and Team Batgirl is officially formed.

    Issue 4 would be a fun romp with the newly named team and highlight some new toys and skills that Steph is rocking. However, we'd also see that something doesn't feel right to Cass, happy as she is for Steph. Meanwhile, Babs would have tracked down Tim, who would tell her that he's not coming home until he proves that Bruce is still alive. And because of the state he was in at the time (And the fact that he's...Tim) he wouldn't be the most polite about it.

    Issues 5 and 6 would have Team Batgirl team up with the new Batman and Robin. Babs, Cass, Steph, Dick and Damian have still never all been in the same room together, and dang it, I would make the most of those dynamics here. It would mostly just be a fun two parter taking full advantage of all the rich relationships that could be built there, but towards the end, there would be the scene that sets up the final issue of the opening arc: Cass would talk to Dick about what leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing meant to him and the two would have a nice bonding moment, maybe even bringing up how much they both lost in Bludhaven. (Remember, I may think Dick himself is a tool, but I love how he interacts with plenty of characters.) At the end, Babs would tell everyone about how she was recently in contact with Tim and how he's unable to let go of the idea that Bruce is still alive.

    This would take us to #7, which would be Cass's departure. Steph is complaining to Babs how she should let her just go kick Tim's butt and bring him home, but there's an alert. Team Batgirl is about to spring into action, but Cass says she wants to go alone. They're confused but they go along with it, Cass arriving at the site...and finding Shiva. Rather than fight for the umpteenth time (There's no point. Shiva knows she won't kill her), they'd talk, the themes of which harkening back to the Death Wish arc. Shiva would even learn that despite him being gone now, Cass was adopted by Batman. And Shiva would actually be happy for her, with even after everything Slade did to her, and despite what she was intended to be, she was still able to continue on and forge her own destiny. Those last few words specifically echoing what Dick had told her in the previous issue. Before Shiva goes (The reason she'd shown up at all WAS just to get Cass's attention having heard about the Slade fiasco) we'd get one more echo to the end of Cass's solo as Cass asks "Will you ever stop?" And to reflect how times are changing through the Batverse and everyone is growing, she'd give a simple "Perhaps."

    Steph is getting antsy, wondering where Cass is, and off-panel, we'd see Cass say, "Back." Through some casual banter, one of them would refer to Cass as 'Batgirl'. To which Cass would say, "No." Cue full splash page of Cass in her new costume, revealing her new name which would NOT be Black Bat. Steph and Babs are confused, and Cass explains (Through fewer words than I'm using here), that Batgirl was the first name she ever knew. And being Batgirl is what she needed. A chance to do good to make up for what she did as a child and a chance to become part of a family. But things have changed. She knows she's a good person, while still as dedicated as ever, and she IS part of a family. Batgirl used to be who she was. Now she is Cassandra Cain-Wayne, and anything else is just codename. And the man who made all this possible for her? She can't believe he's gone either. The Bat is what she fights for, but she still loves her dad. And it turns out she's never actually believed he was gone, but unlike Tim, she had no idea where to even start looking. Cass tells Steph that the Batgirl name is now her's alone to honor, and gets Tim's current location from Babs, saying she wants to help Tim on his search, adding on that she's also worried about what being alone is doing to him, knowing full well how damaging isolation can be. The other two argue against this, but her mind is made up. She bids both Steph and Babs a tearful farewell, including a peck on the cheek for Steph, promising that when she comes back, it'll be with both Tim and Bruce. The final page would be a collage of the most important moments in Cass's life, and the most important people in it.

    From there, she'd act as Tim's co-star in Red Robin, while Steph and Babs form what will be their status quo in Batgirl.

    And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get: A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl, but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion.

    Now as for how I'd handle Steph being made Batgirl today? Well that's a bit trickier, and this post already got WAY longer than I'd planned, so I'll write that out later.

    Hope anyone who read though all this liked it!
    I do want to say that even though I prefer Steph to Cass as Batgirl, I don't think it would be right or fair for anyone to skip over Cass and just make the progression be Babs to Steph. That would be really weird and wrong. Though someone was mentioning on tumblr the other day that they think Cass doesn't have a very strong Bat-connection right now. I don't agree with them, but that's definitely something floating around in fandom right now.

    I think the only real problem with your reworking is that Babs was incredibly angry (similar to Tim) at the beginning of Steph's run as Batgirl. Because of the (idiotic) failure and breakup of the Birds of Prey, and then the (stupid) Oracle: The Cure miniseries, she was in an incredibly dark place, and though I think she would have been kind to Cass, she wouldn't have been very interested in helping Steph out. So I think it would have taken a few more issues for Cass to get Babs on Steph's side.

    However, I think it's a brilliant AU, and very enjoyable (and much more satisfying to a wider Batfamily fan as well).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  15. #1800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Now this is playing the long-game .
    And that's the way it should be. When a long-time mantle holder is giving it up, it should be something built up to and with meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post

    I do want to say that even though I prefer Steph to Cass as Batgirl, I don't think it would be right or fair for anyone to skip over Cass and just make the progression be Babs to Steph. That would be really weird and wrong.
    Sadly, there are plenty of (not too kind) Steph fans who disagree with you. I assure you, while I'll give it my best crack, the situation I come up with will be a matter for trying to make an awful situation less awful, as opposed to my previous proposal, which I would have LOVED.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Though someone was mentioning on tumblr the other day that they think Cass doesn't have a very strong Bat-connection right now. I don't agree with them, but that's definitely something floating around in fandom right now.
    The fact that there are people who think of Damian and Kate as core Batfam but NOT Cass shows that DiDio and co succeeded in making her feel less important to a lot of people by wiping her from existence. And I hate to say it, but 'Tec may not be doing her favors in this regard. It was better when Tim and Steph were on the team, but as it stands, of the four non-leaders, she's the only core member. Hopefully, the writers' and fans attitudes will change once the codename change and (eventual) adoption come about.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think the only real problem with your reworking is that Babs was incredibly angry (similar to Tim) at the beginning of Steph's run as Batgirl. Because of the (idiotic) failure and breakup of the Birds of Prey, and then the (stupid) Oracle: The Cure miniseries, she was in an incredibly dark place, and though I think she would have been kind to Cass, she wouldn't have been very interested in helping Steph out. So I think it would have taken a few more issues for Cass to get Babs on Steph's side.
    True. Maybe add on an additional two issues with Cass helping Steph win Babs over and generally helping her current state. By that point we may as well let Team Batgirl last a little longer (3 more issues) and make the transition last the first year of the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    However, I think it's a brilliant AU, and very enjoyable (and much more satisfying to a wider Batfamily fan as well).
    Glad you liked it.

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