Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[Assam]

I would not be a fan. It would be too obvious a retcon, and I love the adoption story way more than "Bruce forgot he had another kid somewhere."

As I just edited my post to mention, I agree that the adoption would be MUCH better than the retcon. And you are right that it'd be a little silly.

Also, while I love the adoption and every wonderful BatDad and Cass moment we got pre-2006, I can't say I love the "story" because of all the crap that happened. She really should have been adopted at the end of Murderer/Fugitive.

[millernumber1]

As I just edited my post to mention, I agree that the adoption would be MUCH better than the retcon. And you are right that it'd be a little silly.

Also, while I love the adoption and every wonderful BatDad and Cass moment we got pre-2006, I can't say I love the "story" because of all the crap that happened. She really should have been adopted at the end of Murderer/Fugitive.

You're not wrong. I just hate the "secret kid" storyline - not to mention the "blood trumps love" stuff that Damian has been encouraging for the past decade.

[SneakyLookingSort]

As for the "ending" of League of Shadows - the reason I think it's a really good arc, especially for Cass, is the theme of the dancer and the shadow, and the fact that she beats EVERYBODY in a fight. The "ending" is just that - not an ending, because it's setting up for the long game.

I wasn't a fan of that arc because it reinforces what some people dislike about Cass; they see her as this unbeatable fighting machine with no real personality. Having a real ending would have helped to show that there's a real character underneath it all but I felt Cass came off a bit one note in this arc. And beating million mook ninjas is never as good as a good 1 vs 1.

[TheCape]

[QUOTE][Something like that would be laughingly bad, lol/QUOTE]
It would be, but now it gave me.the idea for an interesting Metal Gear AU.

[Assam]

You're not wrong. I just hate the "secret kid" storyline - not to mention the "blood trumps love" stuff that Damian has been encouraging for the past decade.

Yeah, you know that gets my blood boiling too.

I wasn't a fan of that arc because it reinforces what some people dislike about Cass; they see her as this unbeatable fighting machine with no real personality. Having a real ending would have helped to show that there's a real character underneath it all but I felt Cass came off a bit one note in this arc. And beating million mook ninjas is never as good as a good 1 vs 1.

While I do still think of the arc somewhat more fondly than you, this is mostly all true and well said.

[millernumber1]

I wasn't a fan of that arc because it reinforces what some people dislike about Cass; they see her as this unbeatable fighting machine with no real personality. Having a real ending would have helped to show that there's a real character underneath it all but I felt Cass came off a bit one note in this arc. And beating million mook ninjas is never as good as a good 1 vs 1.

But she also had a one on one with Shiva. I'm not convinced that a real ending would have been better - because my favorite bits were the prologue issues (950) and the issue where the dancer comes back and reads the book to Cass.

[Aahz]

I go back and forth on Tynion......I have the utmost love and respect since he has brought Cass out of the ashes and made her relevant again. I just wish she was more focused on in the series.....

I think it is in general a problem with Cass in Team books (at least if it is not a very small team), if she isn't really in the center of the story she tends to fade in the background.

[Assam]

I think it is in general a problem with Cass in Team books (at least if it is not a very small team), if she isn't really in the center of the story she tends to fade in the background.

What exactly are you basing that off of? There are plenty of examples of her working well in teams with the BatFam, she worked well alongside the "New" Young Justice for an issue, and the only times she's gotten to be a full member of a proper team are Justice League Elite, which was a maxi-series where Cass, like most characters not named Vera Black, was a designated side-character with their own sub-plot, and the Outsiders, where she wasn't even written properly.

[Aahz]

Mostly bigger Batfamily cross over stuff, when she doesn't have her own subplot she is often just there.

And the current TEC it seems similar.

Thats in general a problem with quiter characters, Raven has imo a similar problem in Titans.

[Assam]

Mostly bigger Batfamily cross over stuff, when she doesn't have her own subplot she is often just there.

Examples? The many times she's worked with 1-3 other members in normal issues have often been great, and as far as the "bigger" crossovers go:

No Man's Land was her introduction. Murderer/Fugitive: Despite the plot being about her, the story really wasn't, and like Tim and Dick, her contributions were mostly relegated to her solo; she wasn't unique there is what I'm saying. Hush: She wasn't in it because of Jim Lee. War Games: Horrocks deliberately kept her out of the crossover as much as possible because he hated the storyline and didn't want her involved. RIP and Battle for the Cowl: Excluded.

And the current TEC it seems similar.

That comes down to Tynion as a writer, and the fact that this a focus arc style team book.

[Aahz]

Examples?

It is more that I can't really remember much of her in any cross overs.

I was thinking of stuff like Gates of Gotham and Batman: Outlaws but I haven't read those in long time.

[Assam]

It is more that I can't really remember much of her in any cross overs.

I just covered all the "bigger" ones, and explained why.

I was thinking of stuff like Gates of Gotham and Batman: Outlaws but I haven't read those in long time.

Batman: Outlaws was only 3 issues long, Cass only getting cameos in the first two, and was as much of a side character as Tim there. Toss in that the book as a whole was unmemorable, and I don't think it says much. Honestly, the only cool thing from Outlaws was this gloriously cheesy group shot:

cheese.jpg

And if you find her unmemorable in Gates of Gotham, fair enough, but it's the only thing she was in between 2006 and 2016 that most Cass fans agree used her well. Even if her voice was off at times, I still really enjoyed her presence in that story, mainly her interactions with Tim and Damian.

[millernumber1]

What exactly are you basing that off of? There are plenty of examples of her working well in teams with the BatFam, she worked well alongside the "New" Young Justice for an issue, and the only times she's gotten to be a full member of a proper team are Justice League Elite, which was a maxi-series where Cass, like most characters not named Vera Black, was a designated side-character with their own sub-plot, and the Outsiders, where she wasn't even written properly.

I disagree about Cass in Outsiders - I thought she was really fun, and if Tomasi hadn't taken over the series, I think even Tieri could have made her into a great team leader.

[Assam]

I disagree about Cass in Outsiders - I thought she was really fun, and if Tomasi hadn't taken over the series, I think even Tieri could have made her into a great team leader.

She was far from at her worst there. How she handled Ollie when he was being a hypocritical ass was great, her interactions with Tatsu are the closest I've come to liking Katana, she got some nice, badass moments and I absolutely agree that she would made a great leader, had it not been for Tomasi's Atlanta96 levels of hate for her. (No offense is made to you Atlanta if you're seeing this, but you do hate some characters very passionately ) But at the same time, I felt she was very off, with Dixon often seemingly taking inspiration from that god awful line in Birds of Prey, and actually having her be "The Broody Batgirl". Her personality was lacking in a lot of ways and her voice was off; much moreso than in Gates of Gotham, and probably about as bad as Convergence: Batgirl

Also, the orange juice scene. I get what he was going for there, but it just came off as cringey for me.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Examples? The many times she's worked with 1-3 other members in normal issues have often been great, and as far as the "bigger" crossovers go:

No Man's Land was her introduction. Murderer/Fugitive: Despite the plot being about her, the story really wasn't, and like Tim and Dick, her contributions were mostly relegated to her solo; she wasn't unique there is what I'm saying. Hush: She wasn't in it because of Jim Lee. War Games: Horrocks deliberately kept her out of the crossover as much as possible because he hated the storyline and didn't want her involved. RIP and Battle for the Cowl: Excluded.

Cass was never on a teen team, and was ignored by the Superman/Batman title. In Gotham Knights, the Bat family book, she was lucky to be a supporting character. In the individual books themselves, Cass was on the fringes. I can't think of a single meaningful team-up Cass had with Nightwing, at all, and with Robin prior to moving to Bludhaven. And I can only think of two times Cass teamed up with Batman to a meaningful degree. Three, if one counts Batman saving Cain.

Huntress got more frequent flier miles than Cass, and I'm not counting Birds. And of course, the embargo.

I love Cass, but she's always been the odd man out on the Bat fam. Brubaker's the only one who really embraced her, everyone else resents that she's not Babs or have no idea how to use her