Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[Frontier]

I put Kate above because she got a solo, is still the most pushed 'Tec team member and getting merch, but if you factor in Gotham by Gaslight, I guess adding that on to King's run equals them out.

At the same time Selina is in games (Injustice II, The Telltale Series), finally got some big focus in DC Super Hero Girls, is in a live-action TV show (Gotham) and is going to appear in Gotham by Gaslight next year.

Add the fact that she's the co-star of the current flagship book of DC comics, by sales alone, and I'd say that puts her a little above Kate (not that I think it should be a contest).

Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel.

She hasn't been immediately relaunched yet, so I think that saves her from being the Bat-Captain Marvel .

Cass and Nu52Babs both regularly sold over 30,000 (at their best, both did well over that), but given how far Babs has fallen, her ongoing currently having the lowest sales of any Batgirl ongoing and not too far above what the Beechen Cass mini ended at, I think it's safe to say Babs's prior success was only due to the overall inflated sales of the Nu52, Simone's name, and then the initial draw of Burnside. Contrary to what some think, I don't think making Babs more serious would raise her sales at all, but simply just lose her even more readers, the ones who REALLY like Burnside.

I think Babs needs a revamp, but I also think she'd probably need something else (like a bigger named writer) to draw more interest back to her book.

I don't know if Cass could still regularly pull over 30,000, but I do confidently believe she could outsell all the currently failing Bat books.

If DC handled it right? I have no doubt .

See, I'm not sure Cass on her own could still regularly pull 30K, but I think this definitely could. And if done right, maybe, just MAYBE, the completely shattered base that is the Batgirl fandom could start being elmers glued back together.

It would depend a lot on the writing and handling of it, in my opinion, because it would need to be just right for all the different Batgirls fans to accept it and enjoy it.

[Assam]

It would depend a lot on the writing and handling of it, in my opinion, because it would need to be just right for all the different Batgirls fans to accept it and enjoy it.

Hence the several maybes. It would need to be someone who has equal respect for all three Batgirls, truly loving them all, AND has the skill as a writer to make the book legitimately good. PLUS, they'd have to be able to turn around Oracle fans who don't accept Babsgirl at all like myself, win over the idiotic "OnetrueBatgirlers" AND do justice to the prevoius relationships these characters have shared.

Basically, I'm not sure there's such a writer in the industry right now.

[millernumber1]

Harley is definitely an attention-stealer or someone who hogs the spotlight, but that's pretty much by design (and something she shares with her erstwhile lover).

I think Epting is a fairly big name in comics, but not the kind of artist who drives sales up.

I think, ideally, DC should be pushing and making all the ladies in the Batfamily as big, major, and significant and not downplay some for others. Especially considering the different kinds of audiences and stories they can appeal too.

At the same time, the major push they've given characters like Babs and the Sirens primarily has worked demonstrably to their favor. As far as general audiences are concerned I think Batgirl is as important as Robin and Nightwing.

Ah, but which lover?

Interesting - do you think there is an artist who could drive sales up specifically for one of the Batgirls/women (including Steph and Cass, of course)? Because Rafael Albuquerque didn't seem to really make much of an impact for Batgirl, either.

Completely agree that the zero sum game DC is playing with the three Batgirls is really obnoxious. Especially since I think a Batgirls team book with Steph, Cass, and Babs, if given a solid writer (like Tynion or Seeley, NOT someone like Sebela, Larson, the Bensons, Orlando, or Bennet) could really ramp up love for all three. (My personal pick would probably be someone like Christopher Priest, but he's got Justice League now, so all the best to him!)

I really disagree that general audiences think Batgirl is as important. At least as far as sales and appearances in other titles go. (Which makes it all the more idiotic that DC is obsessed with Babs being the One and Only since they refuse to even push her that effectively.)

Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel.

Cass and Nu52Babs both regularly sold over 30,000 (at their best, both did well over that), but given how far Babs has fallen, her ongoing currently having the lowest sales of any Batgirl ongoing and not too far above what the Beechen Cass mini ended at, I think it's safe to say Babs's prior success was only due to the overall inflated sales of the Nu52, Simone's name, and then the initial draw of Burnside. Contrary to what some think, I don't think making Babs more serious would raise her sales at all, but simply just lose her even more readers, the ones who REALLY like Burnside.

See, I'm not sure Cass on her own could still regularly pull 30K, but I think this definitely could. And if done right, maybe, just MAYBE, the completely shattered base that is the Batgirl fandom could start being elmers glued back together.

I think DC putting her on the team as leader and beefing up her relationship with Bruce was the best thing they could have done for Kate. Since the current solo is hell bent on ignoring all of the groundwork from Rucka, Williams, and Blackman (at least, that's how it feels, I can see hints that it's coming together, but so far, it's been incredibly disappointing), I really don't see the point of it other than "Tec was successful, and we can't capitalize on Tim because he's "dead," so let's go with the next most likely to sell and get PR too." I mean, if it had been the follow up to This Blood is Thick that I so desperately still want, I'd say something different. THAT book I might even add to my pull list. (Excellent comparison to Captain Marvel, BTW.)

I wish DC would just shunt Larson off on Babs for a prestige title like Supergirl Being Super was, since that's CLEARLY what she actually wants to do, and put a big or even medium sized veteran name on Babs. Tie her back into the Batfamily. The Burnside audience is not big enough to justify what they're doing. That's not to say "Dark and Gritty," but make her a family member, and not DC Super Hero Girls: But For Teens. (Not a knock of DCSHG - I'm thrilled it's getting the kids into comics. But it's not the kind of thing with a large crossover age appeal, I think.)

I don't know about Cass selling 30,000, but I think there's a chance that Babs, Cass, and Steph together could - again, given a writer with a good rep and a story to tell. But why not give a real try (and not just throw it to "writer who is available.")

Lastly, your summary of being a Cass fan also reminds me why her fanbase gives more buzz - because they've had to wait longer. Steph fans had Batgirl 6 years ago, so there's that.

She hasn't been immediately relaunched yet, so I think that saves her from being the Bat-Captain Marvel .

I think Babs needs a revamp, but I also think she'd probably need something else (like a bigger named writer) to draw more interest back to her book.

It would depend a lot on the writing and handling of it, in my opinion, because it would need to be just right for all the different Batgirls fans to accept it and enjoy it.

I think DC will give Batwoman 18 issues, and if nothing changes, either relaunch or new creative team. Or both!

Completely agree that Babs (and ALL the girls) needs a writer who can draw people because of the writer, not just the character.

It is true that based on all the fighting that happens in Robin team-ups, the way a Batgirl team-up book would go would be really tricky. Also, the way Steph and Cass's threads have handled Tec shows that delicacy. But I think it would be worth a try. Certainly better than just accepting the way things are now.

[Frontier]

Ah, but which lover?

Well, I thought I was pretty clear, but fair point .

Interesting - do you think there is an artist who could drive sales up specifically for one of the Batgirls/women (including Steph and Cass, of course)? Because Rafael Albuquerque didn't seem to really make much of an impact for Batgirl, either.

I think comic companies definitely put certain artists on titles (like Ivan Reis, Steve McNiven, Jim Cheung, etc.) to give the title more attention or "prestiege" as it were if chances are the character or writer are not likely to do that.

Completely agree that the zero sum game DC is playing with the three Batgirls is really obnoxious. Especially since I think a Batgirls team book with Steph, Cass, and Babs, if given a solid writer (like Tynion or Seeley, NOT someone like Sebela, Larson, the Bensons, Orlando, or Bennet) could really ramp up love for all three. (My personal pick would probably be someone like Christopher Priest, but he's got Justice League now, so all the best to him!)

I doubt a book like that would even be on Priest's wavelength, though for some reason I can't get Greg Rucka out of my head.

I really disagree that general audiences think Batgirl is as important. At least as far as sales and appearances in other titles go. (Which makes it all the more idiotic that DC is obsessed with Babs being the One and Only since they refuse to even push her that effectively.)

By general audience, I meant outside comics, since Batgirl is pretty much the only major Batfamily member who consistently appears in other media alongside Robin and/or Nightwing.

[Assam]

I doubt a book like that would even be on Priest's wavelength, though for some reason I can't get Greg Rucka out of my head.

While Priest would definitely have the skill and he's versatile enough that he theoretically COULD write them, with the situation as it is, it would need someone who could/would do all of what I said above, and we've got no idea what Priest's thoughts on the Batgirls are.

Also, side-note, but we were talking about who should count as Tim's creators in his thread, and I wonder if Rucka should count for Cass considering he, you know, named her.

[Aahz]

I think DC putting her on the team as leader and beefing up her relationship with Bruce was the best thing they could have done for Kate. Since the current solo is hell bent on ignoring all of the groundwork from Rucka, Williams, and Blackman (at least, that's how it feels, I can see hints that it's coming together, but so far, it's been incredibly disappointing), I really don't see the point of it other than "Tec was successful, and we can't capitalize on Tim because he's "dead," so let's go with the next most likely to sell and get PR too." I mean, if it had been the follow up to This Blood is Thick that I so desperately still want, I'd say something different. THAT book I might even add to my pull list. (Excellent comparison to Captain Marvel, BTW.)

A bigger writer on the book might have helped ...

And I'm still wondering how they handle her leadership role once we get a story with the whole Batfamily in it.

[SneakyLookingSort]

Don't know if I would like the idea of Charlie's Batgirls/Powerpuff Batgirls/Totally Batgirls. All three of them in the same in the book, sure, but I would prefer them using different codenames. I think a new branch of gotham based heroes would be a much more fresh take than just adding more Bats in the already huge roster. Besides Spoiler is way cooler identity than Batgirl, Cass needs something similar and personal.

[Frontier]

Don't know if I would like the idea of Charlie's Batgirls/Powerpuff Batgirls/Totally Batgirls. All three of them in the same in the book, sure, but I would prefer them using different codenames. I think a new branch of gotham based heroes would be a much more fresh take than just adding more Bats in the already huge roster. Besides Spoiler is way cooler identity than Batgirl.

If this were a cartoon, I would totally watch it .

[Caivu]

Since the current solo is hell bent on ignoring all of the groundwork from Rucka, Williams, and Blackman (at least, that's how it feels, I can see hints that it's coming together, but so far, it's been incredibly disappointing)

It's doing nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite.

I think DC will give Batwoman 18 issues, and if nothing changes, either relaunch or new creative team. Or both!

I say at least 24, maybe even 30. If we go by the Blue Beetle Index, it's still well ahead of where BB was at the same issue #, and that's ignoring that I'm reasonably sure DC cares more about Batwoman as a property than Blue Beetle (even if they could market it much better).

Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel.

You don't think that maybe the fact that she's also in Detective has something to do with this? Also don't forget that it's been doing pretty consistently well digitally, and the trade has yet to come out.

Besides, as much as I'd like to see her in the 30-40k range, I care much more about whether her story is good, and so far that's been the case.

[millernumber1]

I think comic companies definitely put certain artists on titles (like Ivan Reis, Steve McNiven, Jim Cheung, etc.) to give the title more attention or "prestiege" as it were if chances are the character or writer are not likely to do that.

I doubt a book like that would even be on Priest's wavelength, though for some reason I can't get Greg Rucka out of my head.

By general audience, I meant outside comics, since Batgirl is pretty much the only major Batfamily member who consistently appears in other media alongside Robin and/or Nightwing.

Interesting. People always talk about Reis like he's an artist who impacts sales, but maybe I just don't read the right books. He's never been on my list before of artists to weigh in purchasing decisions. But then again, the artists who do that for me are people like Marcus To and Dustin Nguyen, so what do I know.

Agree that Priest probably doesn't have a super strong interest in it - but he does such a great job with Ravager and the Dark Titans in Deathstroke I would love to see what he does with it. Rucka has the name clout and skill to do it, but I don't think he's actually that interested in any of the Batgirls, even though he did write a lot of Cass early in NML. Besides, he's much more likely to want to do Kate than any of the others, understandably.

While Priest would definitely have the skill and he's versatile enough that he theoretically COULD write them, with the situation as it is, it would need someone who could/would do all of what I said above, and we've got no idea what Priest's thoughts on the Batgirls are.

Also, side-note, but we were talking about who should count as Tim's creators in his thread, and I wonder if Rucka should count for Cass considering he, you know, named her.

Though I can understand the desires of wanting someone to walk the balance for the three, I think the biggest issue is wanting someone who can tell a really great story or series of stories about the three girls. That's what's really going to put them back on the map for wider fandom, rather than just pleasing their current fanbases.

Don't know if I would like the idea of Charlie's Batgirls/Powerpuff Batgirls/Totally Batgirls. All three of them in the same in the book, sure, but I would prefer them using different codenames. I think a new branch of gotham based heroes would be a much more fresh take than just adding more Bats in the already huge roster. Besides Spoiler is way cooler identity than Batgirl, Cass needs something similar and personal.

Well, I would love all three of them as Batgirl, because they have all been Batgirl, but I'd be okay with Batgirl, Spoiler, and SOMETHING BETTER THAN ORPHAN.

If this were a cartoon, I would totally watch it .

Yes!

It's doing nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite.

I say at least 24, maybe even 30. If we go by the Blue Beetle Index, it's still well ahead of where BB was at the same issue #, and that's ignoring that I'm reasonably sure DC cares more about Batwoman as a property than Blue Beetle (even if they could market it much better).

I think you're likely right that Batwoman has more brand weight than Blue Beetle. So my 18 issue prediction may be a bit short. But we'll have to see. The glut of Batfamily titles also plays into my consideration.

As for the other point, we've already hashed it out in Kate's thread. I respect your love for the series, but I don't think either of us will change the other's mind about it.

[Assam]

Agree that Priest probably doesn't have a super strong interest in it - but he does such a great job with Ravager and the Dark Titans in Deathstroke I would love to see what he does with it. Rucka has the name clout and skill to do it, but I don't think he's actually that interested in any of the Batgirls, even though he did write a lot of Cass early in NML. Besides, he's much more likely to want to do Kate than any of the others, understandably.

I honestly kinda wish Rucka was interested. I REALLY like how he wrote Cass in the NML novelization.

Though I can understand the desires of wanting someone to walk the balance for the three, I think the biggest issue is wanting someone who can tell a really great story or series of stories about the three girls. That's what's really going to put them back on the map for wider fandom, rather than just pleasing their current fanbases.

True...

Well, I would love all three of them as Batgirl, because they have all been Batgirl, but I'd be okay with Batgirl, Spoiler, and SOMETHING BETTER THAN ORPHAN.

Spring, friendo. For real this time. I hope.

[millernumber1]

I honestly kinda wish Rucka was interested. I REALLY like how he wrote Cass in the NML novelization.

Spring, friendo. For real this time. I hope.

I really like most of what Rucka writes, which is why I wish he'd come back. But he's said pretty much explicitly that he's really only interested in doing Diana, Kate, Renee, and maybe Helena for DC at this point. He's not interested in being pitched something (as far as I can tell).

Would read a Rucka title for ANY or all of the Batgirls? YES. So much yes. But I just don't think it's worth getting excited about, because I don't think it will ever happen. (Honestly, same with Priest.)

And from your keyboard to Tynion's ears. Though I know you've already told him in person, and I've heard many others say it as well (in the recent Google panel with Tynion, King, Miller, Patrick, and Murphy).

[Aahz]

You don't think that maybe the fact that she's also in Detective has something to do with this? Also don't forget that it's been doing pretty consistently well digitally, and the trade has yet to come out.

At least in the comixology bestseller list the book was in the last time also not a really high postion, and digital sales make up anyway a smaller fraction of the sales than floppies and trades.

[Caivu]

At least in the comixology bestseller list the book was in the last time also not a really high postion, and digital sales make up anyway a smaller fraction of the sales than floppies and trades.

Uh, Top 25 isn't a high position? Because every single issue so far has reached at least that in each of Comixology's markets. That's not at all bad.

[Aahz]

Uh, Top 25 isn't a high position? Because every single issue so far has reached at least that in each of Comixology's markets. That's not at all bad.

But it is a weekly list, not a monthly, so if you look at all 4 weeks of the month combined, Batwoman would probably end somewhere low in the top 100, so roughly where the book is in physical sales.
for the digital sales to really be big factor, it would have probably to get in the top 5 or at least top 10.