Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[The Whovian]

Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low?

Apparently, the writers haven't done their homework or they would know that Tim has been trained by some of the greatest fighters in the DCU, including Shiva and Batman.

Where did Duke get his training? Nowhere

[TheCape]

Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low? I have not read many Tim stories but I know he is a pretty decent fighter. And where is Babs on this list? I feel like all the robins would beat out Duke and I think Steph could beat him. I think my ranking would go:

1.Cass
2. Dick
3.Bruce
4. Damian
5. Kate
6.Jason, I think this also debatable
7.Babs
8.Tim
9. Steph
10.Duke I think these could be a debate

Tim has the fame of being the less physical on the family and relying more in tricskter tactic than physical combat, in comparison with Bruce and Dick (King Snake for example won't be a problem for those 2, but it would be a headache for Tim), so people kind of translated that to him being kind of a wimp in that regard, when actually he is the best martial artist with a bo staff in the DCU. It just come down to the same problem that the batfamily suffer, flanderization, the Robins are hit hard with that in particular.

[Frontier]

Man, I remember the long thread where we debated King's rankings. Good times .

[TheCape]

Man, I remember the long thread where we debated King's rankings. Good times .

I saw the thread a week ago, it was hilarious .

[The Whovian]

Tim has the fame of being the less physical on the family and relying more in tricskter tactic than physical combat, in comparison with Bruce and Dick (King Snake for example won't be a problem for those 2, but it would be a headache for Tim), so people kind of translated that to him being kind of a wimp in that regard, when actually he is the best martial artist with a bo staff in the DCU. It just come down to the same problem that the batfamily suffer, flanderization, the Robins are hit hard with that in particular.

Tim actually beat King Snake. Sorry everyone, don't mean to derail the thread. Just can't stand it when writers post things they have no clue about.

[Assam]

"When you're done with your pancakes I'd love to chat with you and Cassandra about changing schools ..."

Is Cass even attending a school? Did I miss something?

Considering her upbringing and significant learning disabilities (no writing, no reading, limited speaking) I'd think Bruce would get Cassie a special private tutor. A normal public or private school just wouldn't work.

No she hasn't been attending school, but starting at one would still be a change and this was probably the least wordy way to phrase the sentence.

I'd actually LOVE to see Cass going to high school in a top-tier special needs program. I think there's a ton of potential there and while I'm still not a fan of RebirthCass being younger than the original, this is one way to make some damn delicious lemonade.

I saw the thread a week ago, it was hilarious .

It was one of the first discussions I partook in on the forum. And like so much of what I said in those early months while on certain meds, a lot of my comments there were really stupid or not my true thoughts at all. Still kinda funny in retrospect though.

[Aahz]

I think Duke would be top ten, definitely not top five. Damian, Luke, and Kate would all be over Duke. In Tim's case I'd have him under Duke, Babs, and possibly even Stephanie. current Tim is only a hair above street thug level when it comes to pure combat skill.

Cass, Bruce, and Dick in that order are locks imo. The fourth spot is highly debatable between Jason and Damian. Both hold advantages over the other as far as skill is concerned.

Personally I would claim that Dick and Jason a pretty evenly matched, And that Tim is above Steph and Barbara (and Damian being above him is also debatable).

When it comes to Duke, that guy was in Robin War still fanboying about Tim's and Jason's skills.

[Restingvoice]

Cassandra is the top tier obviously.

The second tier is a bit confusing to me.
Dick is the only one aside from Cass that has managed to beat Bruce in a straight up fight, but it's also only happened once as far as I know and after being pushed by Bruce himself, since Dick won't go all out on anyone in the Batfam unless they're being unreasonable. Both of them also had defeated Ra's al Ghul and had gone toe to toe with Lady Shiva longer than the rest. As in, they can't win, but it's not a curb stomp battle either.

To be considered better they need to be consistent, and they more often depict Batman as better than Dick, even though if we count every continuity because today the tend to that, we should have arrived at the state where Dick is in his prime while Bruce is getting old.
So if we count every continuity it should be Dick, but at any default state, it's Bruce.

Then there's Azrael. He's fought both before, but I never read it. All I heard was Bruce beat Azrael in Knightsend, his fight with Dick was interrupted in Eternal, and in the berserk mode, he can fight Cassandra and Batwoman at the same time.
So, normal Azrael for me is the bottom of this tier, but berserk mode Azrael is top tier.

Third Tier.
Both Batwoman and Red Hood have acknowledged in their duel with Batman that they won't be able to defeat him in a fair fight, so both resorted to cheating and took care of their business while Bruce was trapped or incapacitated. Batwoman has defeated Babsgirl before, and Red Hood acknowledged that Babsgirl is better than him. Babsgirl and Red Hood has dueled Nightwing before and it tends to be a stalemate. Nightwing is clearly faster and stealthier than Babsgirl though since everytime they tag, Nightwing always managed to disappear and surprises her.
So while it goes Batwoman > Babsgirl > Red Hood based on that, all of them has gone toe to toe with Batman and Nightwing before, so the third tier is very close to the second and by all means should be considered set in stone.

??? Tier.
Damian's skill fluctuates. The only obvious thing is he couldn't beat Batman and Nightwing. He's beaten Red Hood and Red Robin and they have beaten him in turn.
Same goes for Tim. He can go toe to toe with Red Hood but I don't know how good he is with the rest.
Duke managed to get a hit on Dick while training while he couldn't handle Red Hood. He could also beat Damian.
This tier is not consistent enough for me. They're not the bottom but there are fights where they shouldn't be that good.

Bottom Tier
Stephanie and Harper, New 52 only since I don't know how good she was as Batgirl. I think Stephanie will be at ??? tier

The One Who Never Fought Anyone Else as far as I know so I can't count them
David Zavimbe and Luke Fox

Tt-tt-that's all I know, folks.

[Armor of God]

Duke simply should not even be on these lists. I'm sorry but isn't this exactly why they gave him powers? Dont try to have your cake and eat it too.

Bruce
Cass
Dick
Azrael are top tier

Then Jason, Tim, Damian

Then Kate, Helena, Babs

This is your top 10. You can mention Luke and Steph after them under honorable category.

Mentioning Duke is frankly less about his skill and more about writers trying to remind everyone that he exists and that he is a member of the family. Do not believe for one second that Batman writers are ignorant enough to actually believe he's a top 10 character.

[Armor of God]

Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low? I have not read many Tim stories but I know he is a pretty decent fighter. And where is Babs on this list? I feel like all the robins would beat out Duke and I think Steph could beat him. I think my ranking would go:

1.Cass
2. Dick
3.Bruce
4. Damian
5. Kate
6.Jason, I think this also debatable
7.Babs
8.Tim
9. Steph
10.Duke I think these could be a debate

I think Tynion deserves considerable blame. Putting characters in to specific boxes has long been his speciality. He's turned Tim in to hacker guy.

[Aahz]

Red Hood acknowledged that Babsgirl is better than him.

I don't think that this referred to her fighting skills.

Btw. arguing based of who won against whom is always quite problematic. Who wins depends a lot on the story, and some writers (like Tom King) seem to not care at all for logic and power levels.

And some characters just get much more opportunity to show off then others, Jason and Tim are for example often just used as side characters in the recent Batfamily event, and just don't get any important villains to go up against or get just jobbed to make villain more threatening.

[Korath]

Damian is head and shoulders above Tim. The only young bat able to defeat him should be Cass. Damian as been trained from birth to be a killer, he has spent ten years learning how to fight, kill and defeat all manner of foes. And then he started training with Bruce. There is no way in hell that Tim Drake could be better at a fight than him, short of resorting to his "imma doing everything wrong so I win" he did against Cass. Which was absolute garbage because it should be easier for her that way.

[Aahz]

Damian as been trained from birth to be a killer, he has spent ten years learning how to fight, kill and defeat all manner of foes.

And on top of this he made several PhDs during that time ... sorry but it is really hard to take Damains training serious.

[TheCape]

Damian is head and shoulders above Tim. The only young bat able to defeat him should be Cass. Damian as been trained from birth to be a killer, he has spent ten years learning how to fight, kill and defeat all manner of foes. And then he started training with Bruce. There is no way in hell that Tim Drake could be better at a fight than him, short of resorting to his "imma doing everything wrong so I win" he did against Cass. Which was absolute garbage because it should be easier for her that way.

Almost nobody took the Tim/Cass fight seriously, so it really isn't worth mentioning, we know that it was BS. Damian and Tim is a bit more debatable, for one side there is Damian training that made him dangerous in a fight, but Tim has expirience beating people stronger than him by tricking then (and i refer to actual strategic thinking, not "i don't had a fight style" kind of strategy), he probably would be beaten.in a straight up fight thougth.

[TheCape]

That being said, i think that we should leave it here, we had derail this thread long enougth, wich i apologize for to the Cass fans.