Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[Restingvoice]

I don't think that this referred to her fighting skills.

Btw. arguing based of who won against whom is always quite problematic. Who wins depends a lot on the story, and some writers (like Tom King) seem to not care at all for logic and power levels.

And some characters just get much more opportunity to show off then others, Jason and Tim are for example often just used as side characters in the recent Batfamily event, and just don't get any important villains to go up against or get just jobbed to make villain more threatening.

True, but page evidence is the only thing I have right now. I can't know which story is biased to which character unless I read everything.

[Aahz]

Almost nobody took the Tim/Cass fight seriously, so it really isn't worth mentioning, we know that it was BS. Damian and Tim is a bit more debatable, for one side there is Damian training that made him dangerous in a fight, but Tim has expirience beating people stronger than him by tricking then (and i refer to actual strategic thinking, not "i don't had a fight style" kind of strategy), he probably would be beaten.in a straight up fight thougth.

At least pre flashpoint you had him stomping Damian, once he stopped holding back against him.

Tim wasn't the best marital artist when he started as Robin, but he became pretty good later on, and they showed him iirc later defeating guys (like Shen Chi) pretty easily he had no chance against when he was starting.

True, but page evidence is the only thing I have right now. I can't know which story is biased to which character unless I read everything.

But page evidence is pretty inconsistent. In rebirth you had for example Batman one shotting Solmon Grundy in Batman, and a little bit later in RHatO Grundy could only be stopped by Bizzaro.

[Restingvoice]

But page evidence is pretty inconsistent. In rebirth you had for example Batman one shotting Solmon Grundy in Batman, and a little bit later in RHatO Grundy could only be stopped by Bizzaro.

Yeah. That's why I said "unless I read everything"
I included everything I read or heard in my list and put them in consideration. That's why there's the ??? tier. ^^

[Mataza]

But page evidence is pretty inconsistent. In rebirth you had for example Batman one shotting Solmon Grundy in Batman, and a little bit later in RHatO Grundy could only be stopped by Bizzaro.

I would discard anything writen by king.

[Aahz]

Then there's Azrael. He's fought both before, but I never read it. All I heard was Bruce beat Azrael in Knightsend, his fight with Dick was interrupted in Eternal, and in the berserk mode, he can fight Cassandra and Batwoman at the same time.
So, normal Azrael for me is the bottom of this tier, but berserk mode Azrael is top tier.

Burce didn't beat him in a fight in Knightsend, he iirc tricked him a situation where had to take of the suit, which led to him switching back from Azrael to Jean-Paul. His power level beeing inconsitent is actually part of how his powers work, but at his strongest he is imo significantly above every other Batfamily member.

Appart from this Tim stated several times that he is not on the same level as Jason and the others (the last time in during Lonley Place of Living).

Damian is for me still a case I can't really take serious, if you go by his own book, he would probably be already be better than Bruce in almost everything.

Like I said before going by actual fights is imo often questionable, because fights often go how the plots demand it, and there is quite often PIS or a writer pushing his favourites involved. Appart from this most writers will usually avoid making one character weak in comparison to an other. The female characters are for example often in a team up written as strong their their male counter parts even if they usually had (with exception off Cassandra) far less training (and/or quality of training) and experience.

[AJpyro]

Hey did Cassandra ever learn sign language?

[Assam]

Hey did Cassandra ever learn sign language?

She didn't ever learn proper ASL, but in her earliest appearances she tended to communicate through specific physical gestures, such as greeting people by reaching out a fist.

It'd still be great to see RebirthCass learn and back in the day having her learn ASL would have been better by leaps and bounds than the mess with the psychic.

[dietrich]

Burce didn't beat him in a fight in Knightsend, he iirc tricked him a situation where had to take of the suit, which led to him switching back from Azrael to Jean-Paul. His power level beeing inconsitent is actually part of how his powers work, but at his strongest he is imo significantly above every other Batfamily member.

Appart from this Tim stated several times that he is not on the same level as Jason and the others (the last time in during Lonley Place of Living).

Damian is for me still a case I can't really take serious, if you go by his own book, he would probably be already be better than Bruce in almost everything.

Like I said before going by actual fights is imo often questionable, because fights often go how the plots demand it, and there is quite often PIS or a writer pushing his favourites involved. Appart from this most writers will usually avoid making one character weak in comparison to an other. The female characters are for example often in a team up written as strong their their male counter parts even if they usually had (with exception off Cassandra) far less training (and/or quality of training) and experience.

Damian IS better than Bruce in everything [in my head] and re Tim stomping Damian an uninterrupted fight can't be called. Like in Robin war Damian beat Jason to a knock out or into submission that is a win. had tim stopped that fight then I would be reluctant to give the win to Damian.

[SneakyLookingSort]

She didn't ever learn proper ASL, but in her earliest appearances she tended to communicate through specific physical gestures, such as greeting people by reaching out a fist.

It'd still be great to see RebirthCass learn and back in the day having her learn ASL would have been better by leaps and bounds than the mess with the psychic.

My favorite gesture;

[The Cool Thatguy]

Lets all just agree that Cass is at the top of the 'best fighters' lineup, okay?

[The Whovian]

Lets all just agree that Cass is at the top of the 'best fighters' lineup, okay?

Agreed. She is the best

[Blight]

Hey did Cassandra ever learn sign language?

She knew a little bit of it. There was a "lost issue" that was supposed to actually delve into that more. It featured Cass protecting a child who knew of it and was being targeted by Killer Moth (who was in his Underworld Unleashed form). A few years back the pages that were made were auctioned off on ebay (the artist worked on 90s Ghost Rider). I bought one of these pages. A few years back someone else drew a version of the pages too. Let me go find a scan of the page.

[Blight]

This is the page I own:

tumblr_inline_nhgj9x1NPD1s60p86.jpg

Javier Saltares drew it and Rob Leigh inked it. Eleven pages exist of this lost issue (since they were put out on ebay at the time). I'm gonna assume this was going to be intented for #38.

[Assam]

Oh wow! That is so cool! Didn't even know this existed.

[bat_girl_cc]

i knew i've heard about it, but i never actually saw it, beautiful !