Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

[The Cool Thatguy]

No, the problem is

1) There are fans that want Cass back.

2) DC thinks THAT THIS IS NOT ENOUGH TO KEEP A BOOK AFLOAT. And DC is probably right. They need more than reflex buyers with Cass' character slapped on the cover. They need a hook to bring not only loyal buyers but enough casual fans in to convert to loyal fans.

3) This hook needs to be unique, and not duplicative of other books.

It's a shame that she can't be the next Robin. There's a few hooks there...Batman teaching a daughter, instead of a son. Teaching her to be a human instead of a fighter. Taking on someone that's arguably both more broken, yet stronger than him.

1) How is this a problem?

2) DC doesn't care. They sabotaged Cass for the sake of Babs and don't seem to wanna stop. Cass' book outsold Hawkman, Catwoman and Firestorm's when it was cancelled. All three books have since gotten second and/or third chances, while Cass got shafted with a mini series written by the guy who screwed her up to begin with.

[catbatfan]

There's a new Bat-editor who's making some pretty big changes and they've already brought back Stephanie, so I'm not as pessimistic as others. I think that it's now more a question of "when" not "if."

The new Bat-editor is not responsible for bringing back Stephanie. So far, Mark Doyle has not done anything noteworthy, and there's no reason to believe he has any plans for Cass. I love Stephanie as much as the next person, but she is less-hated at DC than Cass. Sure, Steph was killed off when DiDio took over, but he allowed her to return in 2008, allowed her to become Batgirl in 2009 and carry her own series, and now has allowed her to return in the New 52. In that same time period, Cass' book was cancelled, she was turned evil, she got a mini-series from one of the worst writers to ever take on the character, she was reduced to making occasional guest appearances, then she was shipped out of Gotham and now she's no longer part of continuity. It'll be a struggle to get her back considering it was a struggle to make a tiny bit of leeway from 2006-11.

[Malachi]

With some characters there certainly seems to be going on more behind the scenes then we get told. Cass is one of them. One or several persons of power in DC doesn't like her, or the very least doesn't see any potential in her. She has been pitched and asked for by some of the biggest guns at DC(Snyder for instance wanted her in his Batman, at least to round out the family) yet they all got a no.

DC has a character that has one of the longest running solo's of a female character in their history. She's tied to Batman. She's half asian origin so she ticks that box that DC talks so much about yet do so little.
On paper there is no real reason why Cass hasn't been used yet. The reason that she would upset Barbara and her comic is ludicrous. Babs is doing fine and certainly isn't competing with the role of being Bruce's daughter. That has never been her role in the family. No whatever excuse that Cass would upset their plans for Babs are over since a long time ago. Helena Wayne is Earth 2, so she's not a problem.

Until whatever persons at DC that's vetoing Cass stops then we will not see her, however good the reasons might be. It lloks grim on that front since the 3 people most involved in "sabotage" against her character are in more power at DC then ever. Dan Didio, Eddie Berengenza and Peter Tomasi(spelling might be incorrect =)

[catbatfan]

What did Berganza and Tomasi do to Cass?

[Punisher007]

The new Bat-editor is not responsible for bringing back Stephanie. So far, Mark Doyle has not done anything noteworthy, and there's no reason to believe he has any plans for Cass. I love Stephanie as much as the next person, but she is less-hated at DC than Cass. Sure, Steph was killed off when DiDio took over, but he allowed her to return in 2008, allowed her to become Batgirl in 2009 and carry her own series, and now has allowed her to return in the New 52. In that same time period, Cass' book was cancelled, she was turned evil, she got a mini-series from one of the worst writers to ever take on the character, she was reduced to making occasional guest appearances, then she was shipped out of Gotham and now she's no longer part of continuity. It'll be a struggle to get her back considering it was a struggle to make a tiny bit of leeway from 2006-11.

First of all, I don't agree at all that he hasn't done anything noteworthy. The fat that people are talking about theses changes completely undermines that argument. Secondly, there most definitely IS reason to think that Cass will come back eventually. Steph is back, Helena B is back, Wally West (whether you LIKE the new take on him or not is another matter entirely) is back, freaking Julia Pennyworth, who hasn't been seen or heard from in decades, its back, etc. I also don't agree with you that Cass is more hated than Steph, there's no evidence of that. So frankly, there's A LOT more evidence that she WILL be back. I haven't liked the way DC has treated her over the last five years or so, but there's being pessimistic for a good reason and then there's ignoring all of the evidence just so you can complain. You're doing the latter.

[catbatfan]

I also don't agree with you that Cass is more hated than Steph, there's no evidence of that.

I just laid out all the evidence.

[Blight]

What did Berganza and Tomasi do to Cass?

Tomasi was the editor of Robin during the infamous Robin OYL arc. Berganza I guess maybe Titans East in the Teen Titans book?
Though it is all theories and not straight-up facts. I do kind of believe that too. Someone honestly doesn't like the character given all the various changes that have gone through and the fact Cassandra's book wasn't canceled due to low sales, but to pave the way for Devin Grayson's Batwoman.

[catbatfan]

Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan). But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her. I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.

Tomasi also conveniently excluded Cassandra when he focused on the Bat family in the Nightwing book. It was Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Alfred with the exclusion of Batgirl. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

FWIW, I really enjoyed Cass' appearances in Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders. The way she was treated by DC in her later years, Cass definitely became an outsider.

If the rumours about pre-52 characters appearing in next spring's 2-month special event are true, I hope we see Cass. Maybe the Batgirl versions of Cass, Steph, Barbara and Bette Kane will team up.

[Malachi]

Tomasi was the editor of Robin during the infamous Robin OYL arc. Berganza I guess maybe Titans East in the Teen Titans book?
Though it is all theories and not straight-up facts. I do kind of believe that too. Someone honestly doesn't like the character given all the various changes that have gone through and the fact Cassandra's book wasn't canceled due to low sales, but to pave the way for Devin Grayson's Batwoman.

Berganza and Tomasi where the editors of Robin OYL. They switched right before it started i believe(otherwise it was after a few issues into OYL). So one of them developed the plan of Cass and the other was in charge of actual run. There is at least one old interview lying around on the internet about this. It's from before OYL, when they thought it would be a smash hit ^^
It's so easy to believe that someone is acting unprofessional about Cass. Sadly DC isn't showing us a company where that would be impossible. I really wish they would get their stuff together and publish comics that the fans want and not what they want to sell. Some characters are just relatively sure bets for them. Cass in a teambook is one of those, perhaps even a solo.

[Blight]

Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan). But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her. I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.

Tomasi also conveniently excluded Cassandra when he focused on the Bat family in the Nightwing book. It was Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Alfred with the exclusion of Batgirl. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

FWIW, I really enjoyed Cass' appearances in Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders. The way she was treated by DC in her later years, Cass definitely became an outsider.

If the rumours about pre-52 characters appearing in next spring's 2-month special event are true, I hope we see Cass. Maybe the Batgirl versions of Cass, Steph, Barbara and Bette Kane will team up.

Speaking of Batman & the Outsiders, Tomasi also conveniently forgot Cass during his run too. I think it's safe to say he really isn't found of the character. Honestly, I don't know what to think of the "pre-52" rumor. It's a rumor and a painful one at that given I'm just not a fan of the New 52. Sign me up for anything but the grit/pointless/rebooted characters/grim nature that has clouded these books since the beginning. I rather just hope they just bring in her Black Bat persona and for the love of all that's holy don't introduce her as a villain.

[Malachi]

Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan). But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her. I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.

Tomasi also conveniently excluded Cassandra when he focused on the Bat family in the Nightwing book. It was Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Alfred with the exclusion of Batgirl. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

FWIW, I really enjoyed Cass' appearances in Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders. The way she was treated by DC in her later years, Cass definitely became an outsider.

If the rumours about pre-52 characters appearing in next spring's 2-month special event are true, I hope we see Cass. Maybe the Batgirl versions of Cass, Steph, Barbara and Bette Kane will team up.

Chuck was pitched Cass for his run. He didn't even remember that he had written some comics for her ongoing. He worked on so many Batman-family comics during those years that it's not hard to imagine he didn't invest much of himself in some fill-ins. Still the man is a professional and didn't write anything weirdly OOC for her.

DC more than any other publisher likes to turn their heroes into villains. It's an old tradition that never has worked for them. A bit masochist of them to keep trying. The problem is that so few heroes can be believable turned into a villain. Even if it would be accomplished it would take time, many comics and subtle writing. DC doesn't seem to put much with weight into any of those criteria. So it ends up more of a shock-value thing. Witch prompts them to fix it in an equal fast way. Leaving everything feeling even more hollow. Captain Atom, Don Hall, Mary Marvel, Cassandra Cain. All of them got hurt because of this with even more damage being done to their value in the long run(because now they where in a spot that DC didn't knew what to do with them). It's really shooting yourself in the foot and then get surprised when the doctor say that you can't attend that important match coming up because of your foot.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm just not a fan of the New 52. Sign me up for anything but the grit/pointless/rebooted characters/grim nature that has clouded these books since the beginning. .

It's amazing to me how much the current regime seems to loath the 90s, yet at the same time is taking it's worse elements and using them to extremes (no pun intended) that the 90s never did.

[catbatfan]

It's amazing to me how much the current regime seems to loath the 90s, yet at the same time is taking it's worse elements and using them to extremes (no pun intended) that the 90s never did.

They love everything about the 90s except for the characters.

[Lorendiac]

Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan).

You were off to a good start . . . and then you had to shoot yourself in the foot by saying "unless it's Hal Jordan." Why make a special exception for him when you're laying down a general principle?

I remember buying "Emerald Twilight" as it was first coming out . . . and it sure didn't strike me as a good move to turn Hal into a violent lunatic. (I also bought the Zero Hour mini, which used Hal/Parallax as a major villain, and that story arc didn't impress me at all, so there was no reason to change my mind about the wisdom of "Emerald Twilight.")

Although I remember feeling there was serious wasted potential in "Emerald Twilight," if only DC had handled Hal's rebellion a little differently. I thought there was a great deal to be said for the concept of "Hal Jordan, because he's a true hero, one who has grown older and wiser over the years, has finally made a very sensible decision -- he refuses to tolerate any more of the secretive and clueless backseat driving from the little blue hypocrites who like to call themselves the Guardians of the Universe!"

Unfortunately, that wasn't even remotely the way it was written.

But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her.

I'm with you there -- I remember when that mini was coming out. I kept wanting to buy issues of it in my visits to the local shop -- but I just couldn't bring myself to "send the wrong message" to DC by "rewarding them for bad behavior." If almost any comics writer in the industry except Adam Beechen had been scripting that mini, I at least would have bought the first issue and given it a fair chance to impress me, and if it did, I would have bought the second, and so forth. But I just could not bring myself to send a message to DC along the lines of "having Beechen write Cass again is a good idea that will make Cass's longtime fans happy enough to spend their money on it!"

I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.

Since I wasn't buying the mini at the time, I only heard about the adoption via discussions on DC's Batgirl board (this was back when DC still hosted discussion boards). I was ambivalent about it.

Later, I saw another fan on that board offer an interesting theory about the reasoning behind that token gesture. His theory went this way: "Bruce formally adopted Dick a long time ago, and he's since adopted Tim Drake. Now that Cassandra is officially being added to the family, she is legally Tim's sister. From now on: If the two of them ever got romantically involved, they'd be breaking the local incest laws if they had sex, and they could not receive a valid marriage license even if they wanted to do things strictly by the book before sleeping together."

In other words, he felt the entire point of "Bruce is adopting Cassandra" was simply to derail any hope of a Tim/Cass romance ever occurring in subsequent continuity! Maybe Dan DiDio and other guys at DC didn't care what happened to Cass after that, as long as she was not eligible for the role of "Tim's next girlfriend"?

Did that fan have a point about the real thinking behind Cassandra's adoption into the Wayne family? I have no idea. But it's a fascinating theory!

[catbatfan]

I'm with you there -- I remember when that mini was coming out. I kept wanting to buy issues of it in my visits to the local shop -- but I just couldn't bring myself to "send the wrong message" to DC by "rewarding them for bad behavior." If almost any comics writer in the industry except Adam Beechen had been scripting that mini, I at least would have bought the first issue and given it a fair chance to impress me, and if it did, I would have bought the second, and so forth. But I just could not bring myself to send a message to DC along the lines of "having Beechen write Cass again is a good idea that will make Cass's longtime fans happy enough to spend their money on it!"

To some extent, you played into DC's hands because then they could point to low sales as a reason not to use Cass anymore.