I can relate to the Beast as 15 years or so ago I was mostly in the same frame of mind. For instance you would have never caught me extolling the virtues of Pre-Crisis DCU and I was convinced that the 1986 relaunch "saved" Superman. Age has changed my outlook on a lot. You can certainly appreciate certain aspects of Superheroes without liking the silly and absurd elements of it or being selective about what tropes are tolerable to your personal sensibilities or not. It's all down to personal taste, and sometimes those tastes change.
For instance, had the SUPERMAN 2000 pitch actually happened in the year 2000, I think I would have blown a fuse and gone ape..er...stuff over Waid and Morrison re-imposing the "silly and stupid silver age" (which is how I saw anything pre MAN OF STEEL #1 in 1986) on the character. 15 years later, I would have given up a non-vital organ and my left big toe to make it happen.
Last edited by manofsteel1979; 09-25-2015 at 01:00 PM.
Yes, but I think there was a clear suggestion that The Beast found aspects of Superman story telling particularly annoying.
I thought it particularly intriguing that he found that Superman stories were particularly prone to writing the villains as incompetent. I found that baffling...in normal order of things Superman's its easy to see how Superman can regularly and routinely see off even determined competent villains.
Far, far harder to understand how Batman can survive any encounter with a competent villain with decent energy powers. If a main "beef" is incompetent villains...better to avoid Batman stories, rather than Superman stories.
Pretty much. I started collecting Superman monthlies in '83 when Luthor and Brainiac got revamped. I pretty much enjoyed the Bronze Age, and there were some great Imaginary Stories and some gems in the Silver Age but for the most I don't have much use for it. I don't miss the love triangle, bumbling Kent, or outrageous power level stories at all.
All Star was in my pull box from day one, but I was not a discerning Superman fan back then. Between this and Final Crisis I soon became one but that's ok, I still have back issues and there's plenty of variety in how the character is depicted nowadays.
You find it baffling that a competent villain who provides a legitimate challenge could be more suspenseful and therefore more entertaining to others? Interesting.
I try to avoid all stories involving incompetent villains or heroes who rely on happenstance or deus ex machina's to win the day. Other's think those are the key components to comic book storytelling. Different Strokes.Far, far harder to understand how Batman can survive any encounter with a competent villain with decent energy powers. If a main "beef" is incompetent villains...better to avoid Batman stories, rather than Superman stories.
I'm passionate about the subject because I'm a cartoonist. Believe me, I love super heroes.
Last edited by The Beast; 10-01-2015 at 11:12 PM.
I just haven't read a more forward thinking, completely faithful, and inspiring story about Superman since. Tell me the book, the only other one I can think of is Superman Beyond, or 1,000,000. The Art, I'm not sure what Quitely does, but it puts you in a fully realized world. Even "Bumbling Kent", that's a Golden Age Convention, as is Mxyzptlk. It does a version of Superman that is more or as true as The Dark Knight Returns or Year One for Batman. Morrison does not hesitate when creating a modern Superman.
Nothing like what I actually wrote.
I commented that it was far easier to see how Superman might more easily overcome a determined competent villain than most other heroes (especially Batman). Certainly I think Batman by his very nature relies on a steady supply of incompetent villains, and super powered allies who don't have a clue.
Indeed, many have said that one of difficulties of writing Superman well is creating villains that present credible threats. Obviously you do meet incompetent villains in Superman stories...but they aren't needed to give Superman an easy win. And I'm surprised that you believe that its a constant weakness (i.e. writing villains as blunderers) of Grant Morrison. Certainly not a favourite writer of mine...but I think his main weaknesses lie elsewhere.
Last edited by JackDaw; 09-25-2015 at 10:41 PM.
Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)
I know you and the Beast are pulling my leg, but....
I like the low powered guys. But they work far better (in most circumstances) set in their own self contained worlds.
But put them in a shared universe in stories...where we are told some villains can bench press planets, move at near light speeds with reactions to match...then only way you can show the low powered guys duking it out against heavy hitters is by a steady stream of poor writing. If Black Adam hits Batman...and the respective power sets are taken seriously, then Batman dies.
I'm assuming here...of course...that some attempt is being made to stick to the implied assumption in "serious" super hero stories. (i.e. That writer is making an attempt to portray what might realistically happen ONCE the assumption had been made that action is taking place on an earth where humans have super powers.)
Tommy Monaghan featured in great stories, despite the low-ish power set for a variety of reasons. Hitman was just about 2 series rather than one. In the first where Tommy M featured a few few other DC heroes...Garth Ennis (blessings upon him) made relatively little attempt to write a serious story, it was all about using cartoon conventions to have fun. And that worked well.
Then as series progressed...and Garth moved onto more serious issues...the DC heavy hitters disappeared and Tommy went up against foes and situations more suited to his own power-set. Yes...even then he needed outrageous luck to survive more than a couple of adventures. But then outrageous luck can get people through situations even on our own mundane Earth (look at true life war exploits)...and the series ended "realistically", with the luck running out after several adventures. This part of the series (the part where effectively Tommy was in "monaghan-verse") worked even better for me than first part of series set in DCU.
I guess the delays between issues were annoying. I thought it was cancelled at one point.