Uncanny Avengers Appreciation

[Chief Jon]

yes we do. we already have several pages of it shown in preview?



ok so i am not alone in being bothered by excessive brutality for shock value sake. so far from what i have seen here, i am not hopeful. i am horrified and not in the content of the story but the way it is being depicted currently. i don't want to see skull smiling for multiple panels and the heroes just standing around helpless. magneto even tries to fight and he gets booted in the face like a weakling? for more torture i am guessing.

I'll agree to disagree as far as our respective levels of optimism are concerned. For now I've only seen these 3 pages, and that's just not enough to convince me that it gets any more nasty than what we've got here. Are there more out there yet for #25 that anybody knows of?

[Tendrin]

I'll agree to disagree as far as our respective levels of optimism are concerned. For now I've only seen these 3 pages, and that's just not enough to convince me that it gets any more nasty than what we've got here. Are there more out there yet for #25 that anybody knows of?

That's what my question was. This concern reminds me of all the concern over whether or not Ock was gonna rape Mary Jane in Superior Spider-Man #2.

[Chief Jon]

Please never read Maus, it is perhaps the best OGN ever written but i think it would overload you

Agreed. Sorry God Loves, Man Kills.

does maus show the red skull getting off on torturing superheroes in the concentration camp? ok then that is for a different audience.

No, it's a biography of the life of the author's father in Poland (and later Sweden and America). Most of the hiding from the Gestapo and struggling to survive in concentration camps. That Art Spiegelman depicts the characters as cartoon animals simultaneously heightens identification with the story's protagonists while giving visual representation to the dehumanizing effects of Nazi/fascist/other bigoted ideologies. It's one of the most masterful pieces of visual narrative ever composed.

[Chief Jon]

That's what my question was. This concern reminds me of all the concern over whether or not Ock was gonna rape Mary Jane in Superior Spider-Man #2.

Wow! I am very glad I wasn't following that argument when it was happening. Oy. That's some cynicism right there.

[Mikekerr3]

does maus show the red skull getting off on torturing superheroes in the concentration camp? ok then that is for a different audience.

No it shows cuddly litle mouse people being torture and murdered in concentration camps en-mass. With far more evil being shown than Marvel would ever let the Red Skull show.

It is a biography in Fantasy GN form and all the more horrific and sickening for that

[Tendrin]

No it shows cuddly litle mouse people being torture and murdered in concentration camps en-mass. With far more evil being shown than Marvel would ever let the Red Skull show.

It is a biography in Fantasy GN form and all the more horrific and sickening for that

Comic book supervillains have nothing on man, it's true.

[AcesX1X]

well that's just more to my point isn't it? it's one thing to show fantasy animals going through these horrific experiences but actual humans (and superheroes who we have cared about for decades)?

and regarding god love, man kills. if you are referring to those two children who were hate crimed then that was tragic but it was brief! this is an exercise in slow and deliberate torture so far. all for the shock of seeing how cruel and deranged skull is. here's a hint! we already know what a sicko he is. we don't need to be subjected to long drawn out fantasy like we are seeing here.

[Mikekerr3]

well that's just more to my point isn't it? it's one thing to show fantasy animals going through these horrific experiences but actual humans (and superheroes who we have cared about for decades)?

None of the charaters in these books is any more real that the mice in Maus. The evil done in this book will be very pale imitations of the real thing. Whenyou think they are going over the top and they are not being as vile and scary as what you can watch on the news, perhaps your "top" is a bit misplaced.

[AcesX1X]

None of the charaters in these books is any more real that the mice in Maus. The evil done in this book will be very pale imitations of the real thing. Whenyou think they are going over the top and they are not being as vile and scary as what you can watch on the news, perhaps your "top" is a bit misplaced.

these are comic books, not FOX news or any other television broadcast. this is supposed to be for all-audiences and i have seen marvel be gratuitous enough before to know the stakes. i don't think making a joke out of real horrors like concentration camps is appropriate. all to show how "evil" red skull can really be. you are free to disagree.

[Tendrin]

these are comic books, not FOX news or any other television broadcast. this is supposed to be for all-audiences and i have seen marvel be gratuitous enough before to know the stakes. i don't think making a joke out of real horrors like concentration camps is appropriate. all to show how "evil" red skull can really be. you are free to disagree.

A joke? You really think this is going to make a joke out of it?

[Mikekerr3]

these are comic books, not FOX news or any other television broadcast. this is supposed to be for all-audiences and i have seen marvel be gratuitous enough before to know the stakes. i don't think making a joke out of real horrors like concentration camps is appropriate. all to show how "evil" red skull can really be. you are free to disagree.

All most none of the Marvel books are intended for all audiences, The UA definitely is not. The a targeted audience is adults and has been for a long time.

[AcesX1X]

A joke? You really think this is going to make a joke out of it?

i think it is making light of it for shock value, yes.

All most none of the Marvel books are intended for all audiences, The UA definitely is not. The a targeted audience is adults and has been for a long time.

you and i both know that those are only recommendations by the publisher that no one follows anyway.

[Tendrin]

i think it is making light of it for shock value, yes. .

I think it's a bit early to the jump to the conclusion. If it's properly portrayed as monstrous and murderous, I don't think it's really making 'light' of it.

[Rochedalaix]

I had a problem with that too, though many of my reservations had to do with Morrison's seeming utter disregard for the work of other writers (especially Chris Claremont) in developing Magento as a redeemable figure. Had it been presented as just Xorn (as was later retconned when Morrison fell out with Bill Jemas over something unrelated to New X-Men) I might have had an easier time with the lead villain being depicted as a genocidal racial supremacist and even seeing the evidence thereof. By that time though Mags had moved a long way from that (indeed there was NOTHING in the characters previous history to every indicate him as genocidal). I don't care to see the details of a gassing either, but a skilled visual artist is able to communicate attrocity or brutality without depicting every gory detail thereof. I'm hopeful that Remender and Acuna will give us something more like Scorsese did in Gangs of New York (There's not a single shot in the movie of any violent act being completed, just the start and the aftermath without contact) or Spielberg in Schindler's List than Eli Roth or Quentin Tarrantino in . . . anything they've ever directed.

Eh Magneto gonna turn into a genocidal maniac during Eve of destruction.

[stingnewell]

Comics in Marvel have always had a villain or groups committing Holocaust camps of the sort. Kang's prison camps after his rule of earth, Annihilus campaign in Annihilation and The Universal Church of Truth cleansing of undesirables. If this bothers people I suggest they pack up, leave and read another title.