Superman/Wonder Woman #8 Preview?

[Silvanus]

"let me help you" but first let me soud really needy of you haha

"Needy," to me, means something unhealthy, along the following lines: "I need you to be with me 24/7, I need you to constantly reassure me that I'm all that matters to you, and I need other people to tell me how devoted you are to me." Needing to be with a loved one who has gone through a trauma and seems to have withdrawn from the world? That seems pretty normal to me.

oh realism!!!! in a world with flying heroes, spandex, aliens they can do very well without the rape cliches. They are exactly whitewashing the "rape culture", much worse they are part of the rape culture. they will say that Superman was under the doomsday virus and no consequence. It's just the writer tryoing to be edgy and end up being lame

Even non-realistic fiction, full of fantasy--which I love--typically reflects and comments on the real world in some way. And even Marston's original Wonder Woman comics, which few would accuse of excessive realism, had "rapey" moments: Hercules' deceptive seduction of Hippolyta and conquest of the Amazons, Dr. Psycho's mistreatment of his wife, and even the ancient Amazons' hunts for men. But these were treated as problems to defeated or remedied, and I hope that this will also be the be the case with any rapiness in Doomed as well. "Rape culture," as I understand it, is culture that treats rape or "rapey" behaviors and attitudes as somehow acceptable or no big deal. I'm not seeing that here yet.

[Blacksun]

I think Diana "needed" to know that Clark was ok after being infected by the Doomsday virus.

she said "I need you" period

"Needy," to me, means something unhealthy, along the following lines: "I need you to be with me 24/7, I need you to constantly reassure me that I'm all that matters to you, and I need other people to tell me how devoted you are to me." Needing to me with a loved one who has gone through a trauma and seems to have withdrawn from the world? That seems pretty normal to me.

If wasn't for the other issues that she is very dependent on him I would agree with you. But I see no reason why the "I need you" is there. It's not surprise for me coming from a guy that his favorite superman book is red son.

Even non-realistic fiction, full of fantasy--which I love--typically reflects and comments on the real world in some way. And even Marston's original Wonder Woman comics, which few would accuse of excessive realism, had "rapey" moments: Hercules' deceptive seduction of Hippolyta and conquest of the Amazons, Dr. Psycho's mistreatment of his wife, and even the ancient Amazons' hunts for men. But these were treated as problems to defeated or remedied, and I hope that this will also be the be the case with any rapiness in Doomed as well. "Rape culture," as I understand it, is culture that treats rape or "rapey" behaviors and attitudes as somehow acceptable or no big deal. I'm not seeing that here yet.

Rape culture is everthing involving rape. I see no difference with this rape threat with the one used against Sue in Identity crisis. Just being used for the shock and to cause manpain. It's like Millar logic, this guy is really bad so he rapes women. he never worry about seeing the victim side. the trpo rape also is used constantly just to give women character development because lack of creativity from writers

[Dr. Poison]

she said "I need you" period

Yes but look at the context of the story. Superman was just infected by the Doomsday virus.

[Blacksun]

Yes but look at the context of the story. Superman was just infected by the Doomsday virus.

it's just continuation of her needness for superman in other issues. if it was only in this issue I could let it pass.

[Dr. Poison]

it's just continuation of her needness for superman in other issues. if it was only in this issue I could let it pass.

I haven't see any abnormal neediness in this series. Any sort of neediness shown is perfectly natural of someone who is still mesmerized by being part of a new couple. She hasn't done anything that I consider to be weak, obsessive, or crossing a line.

[Silvanus]

Rape culture is everthing involving rape.

Everything? If that were the case, then rape culture would include exposes and critiques of rape and of the cultural tendencies that encourage it.

Wikipedia has a different definition, which seems more reasonable and useful:

a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society, and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape.

Does depicting rape and misogynistic behaviors and language accurately as ugly things often committed by bad people--or, in this case, by a person who has been corrupted by a bad influence--"normalize, excuse, tolerate [or] condone rape"? Not necessarily, no.

[Black Angel]

just want to help? since when people that want to help are do desperate that say please be here, I need you.

guess I read wrong this page

seems you did, but hey thats just what you got from it nothing wrong with that.

[Sacred Knight]

You're making an issue out of nothing again, Blacksun. "I need you." Something common that lovers say to each other all the time. God forbid she be written to actually act like someone in love. And you don't have the "Well Superman isn't portrayed like this so its not balanced" argument to fall back on, as he's already flat out voiced his love.

[GuiltyPleasure]

Changing the subject. I just noticed Diana has a Superman key ring in the page above. Nice touch on Daniel's part. Little things like that add an unspoken intimate/fun flavor to the depiction of their relationship. Any guesses as to whether Clark gave it to her with the key or whether Diana got it for herself?

[misslane]

I don't understand Diana's outfit. If her jacket was bigger and covered her up more, it would be less curious. However, walking around Clark's building and into his apartment which, if I'm not mistaken he shares with Jimmy, with little disguising her superhero costume seems foolish and risky. I recall her having the ability to quickly change clothes when on a date with Clark a year or so ago, so her wardrobe decision here is kind of baffling.

As an aside, I don't see the problem with Diana saying she needs Clark. I do kind of find it annoying that this Doomsday infection is able to function as a get out of jail free card for Superman, and by association the creators, to basically have Superman say and do things that are nasty. It's why I don't like Lois Lane's connection to Brainiac being used to make Lois a villain who says and does terrible things. Now Lois and Superman can both act out of character, and in darker ways, so that there's an excuse for them to do battle with people they would normally not want to harm. Just sick of the ugliness, and using the hybridization of heroes and villains in a desperate and obvious attempt to make them more interesting instead of, you know, actually just doing a good job writing the heroes and villains to be interesting in their own rights. They did this with Zod and Faora, too. Instead of just using them as is, they had to be superpowered up with an assist from Apollo.

[Silvanus]

... "I need you." Something common that lovers say to each other all the time.

That's true, and now I'm wondering if we're reading it differently from Blacksun for linguistic/cultural reasons; Blacksun, if I may ask, does the Portuguese equivalent of "I need you" come across as more extreme? Is it a word choice Brazilians wouldn't ordinarily make?

I do kind of find it annoying that this Doomsday infection is able to function as a get out of jail free card for Superman, and by association the creators, to basically have Superman say and do things that are nasty.

I tend to agree with you about this, somewhat. Magical, pseudo-scientific and other suddden, temporary personality changes have been a convention in superhero comics; there used to be red kryptonite, which apparently could make Superman say or do or be anything--and now, apparently there's the Doomsday virus. But at least Red K was quirky and whimsical, not exclusively "grimdark." And just being conventional doesn't necessarily make it not annoying, if you;re looking for consistent characterization and manifest integrity.

Just sick of the ugliness, and using the hybridization of heroes and villains in a desperate and obvious attempt to make them more interesting instead of, you know, actually just doing a good job writing the heroes and villains to be interesting in their own rights. They did this with Zod and Faora, too. Instead of just using them as is, they had to be superpowered up with an assist from Apollo.

But Zod and Faora were supervillains in the first place--and Apollo, as portrayed int eh New 52, has certainly been no hero-- so what does this have to do with "the hypbridization of heroes and villains"? I thought it was a fairly clever way for Zod and Faora to "win" without proving superior to the heroes and for a Wonder Woman antagonist to be involved (despite my and others problems with Apollo's characterization in issue 2).

[brettc1]

Cant read the preview because I can only see the cover. Also seems like you have to buy the other SM titles to know whats going on.

[brettc1]

just want to help? since when people that want to help are do desperate that say please be here, I need you.

guess I read wrong this page

I wonder will we ever get a page where Superman talks about how much the world needs Wonder Woman?

[misslane]

But Zod and Faora were supervillains in the first place--and Apollo, as portrayed int eh New 52, has certainly been no hero-- so what does this have to do with "the hypbridization of heroes and villains"? I thought it was a fairly clever way for Zod and Faora to "win" without proving superior to the heroes and for a Wonder Woman antagonist to be involved (despite my and others problems with Apollo's characterization in issue 2).

That's not what I meant. I meant that the villains and heroes aren't able to stand on their own. They have to have something else added to the mix. For Superman and Wonder Woman, it was extra armor while Zod and Foara required a super power up from Apollo to get the job done. I'd like to see both heroes and villains in their most natural form actually living their lives as the good and bad people they are and accomplishing their respective goals without augmentations. It's a false victory for Zod and Faora because they didn't engineer the alliance with Apollo or win on their own merits. They were passive in it, and Apollo merely worked through surrogates instead of having the guts to face Superman on his own terms. Neither of which matters because, contrary to what you say even with the quotations, Zod and Faora didn't win anything. In other words, it's become too common for my tastes for characters abilities or personalities to be artificially manipulated.

[Dr. Poison]

I don't understand Diana's outfit. If her jacket was bigger and covered her up more, it would be less curious. However, walking around Clark's building and into his apartment which, if I'm not mistaken he shares with Jimmy, with little disguising her superhero costume seems foolish and risky. I recall her having the ability to quickly change clothes when on a date with Clark a year or so ago, so her wardrobe decision here is kind of baffling.

As an aside, I don't see the problem with Diana saying she needs Clark. I do kind of find it annoying that this Doomsday infection is able to function as a get out of jail free card for Superman, and by association the creators, to basically have Superman say and do things that are nasty. It's why I don't like Lois Lane's connection to Brainiac being used to make Lois a villain who says and does terrible things. Now Lois and Superman can both act out of character, and in darker ways, so that there's an excuse for them to do battle with people they would normally not want to harm. Just sick of the ugliness, and using the hybridization of heroes and villains in a desperate and obvious attempt to make them more interesting instead of, you know, actually just doing a good job writing the heroes and villains to be interesting in their own rights. They did this with Zod and Faora, too. Instead of just using them as is, they had to be superpowered up with an assist from Apollo.

Diana's disguise(or lack there of) was set up by Azzarello and Chiang in her solo book so Soule and Daniel are just following suit here.