How Does Brienne of Tarth Rank in ASOIAF?

[NK1988]

God Tier? Top Tier? Mid Tier?

I like to put her at the very top of Mid Tier myself.... While it's true she fought a weakened and handcuffed Jaime Lannister, I think he might qualify for God Tier himself. Plus, no matter how inhibited he was, he pretty much raved about her abilities after their skirmish. Everyone likes to say Loras is possibly the best of his generation but Jaime seemed confident Brienne would mop the floor with him. Plus she did defeat him in Renly's melee.

P.S.
This is only going off the books. I have not watched Game of Thrones.

[big_adventure]

I mean, ranked how?

Ygritte, pre-castration Theon, etc. would kill her in a Rumble by pincushioning her before she could close. Bran Stark could just possess her and make her kill herself. Non-weakened Jaime should take her. Aero Hotah (going completely by narrative, but total badasses are terrified of him) and Barristan Selmy (exactly the same) should eat her alive. Oberyn Martell (quickness, poison), the Mountain (size and strength), the Hound (same, and more skilled): they should not have too much trouble with her in a fight to the death. Loras... I don't know. I mean, he beat the Mountain in a jousting match, but basically preyed on Gregor Clegane's stupidity and agressiveness to do so. And he was about to get flat-out killed dead by the Mountain in the "real" aftermath, and would have been if Sandor hadn't saved his life. Outside of that, Loras has feats for being handsome and losing to Brienne. And that's it.

[NK1988]

Everyone treats Loras like one of the finest knights in the realm. GRRM himself has gone on rcordt o saying he's one of the best fighters in Westeros.

And I mean ranked in terms of fighting ability. Obviously magic powers like Bran shouldn't be taken into account. Otherwise Mel would be a threat too.

I'd put Ser Barristan in Top Tier at least, maybe even God Tier.

[big_adventure]

Everyone treats Loras like one of the finest knights in the realm. GRRM himself has gone on rcordt o saying he's one of the best fighters in Westeros.

And I mean ranked in terms of fighting ability. Obviously magic powers like Bran shouldn't be taken into account. Otherwise Mel would be a threat too.

I'd put Ser Barristan in Top Tier at least, maybe even God Tier.

What GRRM says doesn't mean much when what he writes is different. In the books? Not really - a bunch of people are on record in the books saying Loras is a pretty-boy tournament knight. People in the books, including Selmy himself, are quite sure he could cut through the entire Kingsguard by himself, even at his age. A group of extremely dangerous people, most trained by or friends of the Red Viper, were basically pooping their pants at the idea that Aero Hotah had figured out what they were to - as he could kill them all, easily. The Mountain was quite sure he could kill Loras trivially, and would have if Sandor hadn't KO'd him. Loras' feats include winning a jousting tournament and losing the melee to someone (Brienne) who needed Jaime to be significantly weakened after a long time in a cage with crappy food, exposure and no exercise, and in handcuffs to break roughly even with him.

[Sharpandpointies]

It's always amusing when writers have certain ideas in their heads and then, due to whatever (desire for 'drama', forgetfulness, wanting to prop up another character), present things completely differently in the written reality.

Even Erikson does it, and that guy probably has a list taped to his computer screen of the various capacities of every character, and how they equate to each other.

[StupidMoniker]

Syrio Forel has not been mentioned, but should be near the top.

[big_adventure]

Syrio Forel has not been mentioned, but should be near the top.

As far as pure skill goes, sure - the dude used a stick to humiliate 5 armed soldiers, and is presented as being effortlessly brilliant with a blade. Buuuuuut... he's missing any feats at all for fighting in armor, or with something heavy enough to get through same. And he got offed by a knight in full plate. I'm not saying he couldn't do it - he's graceful, quick and precise, so maybe he gets some shots into an eye-slit or something, but he never does it in print, so it's hard to allow for it. I could go either way, really. This is sort of the story of what happens if a brilliant katana (for example) wielder wearing lacquered reed armor goes up against a brilliant guy with a longsword wearing full steel plate - it's not that the katana-wielder can't win, but he's at a massive disadvantage in such a confrontation, as the other guy can just tank most any shot coming his way, and the opposite is most definitely not true.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Should be noted that TV GoT Brienne:

spoilers:

'Killed' the Hound in a Street Fight, granted she bit his ear off and ended up shoving him off a cliff... Are Does the whole 'no mercy death, bitch' exit like she did in the book; but it's Brienne's shoving him off a cliff that did him in, and not infected wounds from his fight with Polliver and the Tickler.

end of spoilers

[Endless_Legend]

And he got offed by a knight in full plate. .

Important thing here: Getting killed by a knight in full plate is not a knock against Syrio. It means the full plate did it's job, and the knight was competent enough to attack and defend such that a guy with a stick isn't able to use it to kill him.

Plate armor is not a disadvantage in any kind of combat, including a sword duel. It is still an advantage. You're basically invulnerable to light weapons like rapiers (or whatever Syrio would have used) as long as you're reasonably skilled enough that you never, ever give them the oppurtunity to jam it into one of the armor's gaps.

A moderately skilled swordsman with a longsword and full plate should be *expected* to defeat a vastly superior swordsman with no armor and a dueling weapon. That's how real sword combat works, and that's how much difference wearing armor makes.

Note: I'm not saying Syrio wouldn't have killed him, he still probably would have if he'd had a real sword. But that only further shows how much of a master Syrio was, since doing so is the equivalent of defeating an enemy army that is entrenched, has the high ground, superior numbers, at night, in the rain, at the intersecting corners of four mapsheets.

[big_adventure]

Important thing here: Getting killed by a knight in full plate is not a knock against Syrio. It means the full plate did it's job, and the knight was competent enough to attack and defend such that a guy with a stick isn't able to use it to kill him.

Plate armor is not a disadvantage in any kind of combat, including a sword duel. It is still an advantage. You're basically invulnerable to light weapons like rapiers (or whatever Syrio would have used) as long as you're reasonably skilled enough that you never, ever give them the oppurtunity to jam it into one of the armor's gaps.

A moderately skilled swordsman with a longsword and full plate should be *expected* to defeat a vastly superior swordsman with no armor and a dueling weapon. That's how real sword combat works, and that's how much difference wearing armor makes.

Note: I'm not saying Syrio wouldn't have killed him, he still probably would have if he'd had a real sword. But that only further shows how much of a master Syrio was, since doing so is the equivalent of defeating an enemy army that is entrenched, has the high ground, superior numbers, at night, in the rain, at the intersecting corners of four mapsheets.

If you read what I wrote, that was exactly my point - he's brilliant, but completely lacking feats for either wearing armor himself, or using weapons heavy enough to get through decent armor against a skilled opponent.

[big_adventure]

Should be noted that TV GoT Brienne:

spoilers:

'Killed' the Hound in a Street Fight, granted she bit his ear off and ended up shoving him off a cliff... Are Does the whole 'no mercy death, bitch' exit like she did in the book; but it's Brienne's shoving him off a cliff that did him in, and not infected wounds from his fight with Polliver and the Tickler.

end of spoilers

OP states books, though.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

OP states books, though.

Yuuuuup, just wanted to note the difference between the representations is all.

[MichaelC]

Why do they boot Selmy, anyway? In the show, they just sort of do for no explicable reason. He's clearly still an outstanding warrior, having been such a virtual demigod in his prime that he's still a beast past it. Is there a better reason for it in the books?

[NK1988]

The reason in the book is:
Cersei Lannister is a moron without equal.

Also because she wanted her brother to be the Lord-Commander. And Joff wanted The Hound to part of the kingsguard as well.

[MichaelC]

Also because she wanted her brother to be the Lord-Commander.

Ahhh, okay, that makes sense. In the show, it just felt like they were randomly shooting themselves in the foot for sadism's sake.