Downtown Rumbles: Sharp's Scotch Bar

[Miburo]

To be fair, Goku does get pissed when you kill his friends, I just...Well, he's never been one to talk about it. His friends saying it was just fine--I did like the little color palletes of Jiren and Goku fighting during the flashback.

And I wouldn't say /Never/ forgive them.

I'm sure Vegeta did his best to kill a few of them, and 17/18 pretty much---

Okay, let's just assume he meant "I'll be pissed, but if you turn out to be pretty decent, I'll get over it."

Which is fine, but yeah.

[The Dog]

[Siriel]

To be fair, Goku does get pissed when you kill his friends, I just...Well, he's never been one to talk about it. His friends saying it was just fine--I did like the little color palletes of Jiren and Goku fighting during the flashback.

And I wouldn't say /Never/ forgive them.

I'm sure Vegeta did his best to kill a few of them, and 17/18 pretty much---

Okay, let's just assume he meant "I'll be pissed, but if you turn out to be pretty decent, I'll get over it."

Which is fine, but yeah.

Note that Vegeta and Nappa murdered like half his buddies and he begged Krillin to spare Vegeta just to fight him again.

He also offered to spare Freeza maybe five minutes after he exploded Krillin.

He gets mad but it lasts like, two seconds.

[Miburo]

Yeah, I don't disagree. Toppo rejecting his ideals really cemented in my mind the stakes that were going through everyone's heads as the tournament was winding down. I'm not even sure I'm entirely disappointed with how things have ended up, but I just wish they could be a little better...

And this has been bugging me for a while but...Toppo's kind of a weird choice for next God Of Destruction anyway. Was there any reason given for why Belnod just didn't pick Jiren?

I think Jiren just didn't have any interest. I can't 100% recall, but I got the feeling that Jiren just wasn't interested, and Toppo was the next strongest, so hey.

I feel it makes more sense in the Manga, where Jiren does seem to be more about 'Justice' as opposed to 'Strength'. I could see why he'd have reservations with that in mind. Here, I'm not entirely sure how he feels about things outside of the tournament.

[Siriel]

I feel it makes more sense in the Manga, where Jiren does seem to be more about 'Justice' as opposed to 'Strength'. I could see why he'd have reservations with that in mind. Here, I'm not entirely sure how he feels about things outside of the tournament.

The thing about the manga is that the version of Jiren in it is almost certainly based on the first idea that Toyotaro and the anime stuff got.

Jiren was initially thought up as a chatty JUSTICE type after they got his design from Toriyama, but Toriyama said no and that he was supposed to be a strong quiet guy so it got shifted to Toppo.

[Miburo]

The thing about the manga is that the version of Jiren in it is almost certainly based on the first idea that Toyotaro and the anime stuff got.

Jiren was initially though up as be a chatty JUSTICE type after they got his design from Toriyama, but Toriyama said no and that he was supposed to be a strong quiet guy so it got shifted to Toppo.

Huh. Intriguing.

Then yeah, I assume there is some other quality or something about GoD's that isn't too clear at the moment. Or Jiren is too stubborn to cast off his...idea of absolute strength, for...more...absolute strength?

Or maybe he has butthurt against the whole idea, or something. Who knows.

[Siriel]

Huh. Intriguing.

Then yeah, I assume there is some other quality or something about GoD's that isn't too clear at the moment. Or Jiren is too stubborn to cast off his...idea of absolute strength, for...more...absolute strength?

Or maybe he has butthurt against the whole idea, or something. Who knows.

Clearly he recognized immediately that Hakai was just a sham that would lose to glowy fists, so he had nothing to gain from becoming a God of Destruction.

[Noldere]

Well, technically, the rules say that the onlookers can't attack the competitors. They never really specified the reverse, did they? Not to mention, he clearly was not thinking right.

True, true, and true.

Not to mention that, with 12 universes worth of angels and 6 universes worth of Gods of Destruction in the stands, the only more unlikely thing to have worked at that point would have been him attacking the Zenos.

I did like that moment and it didn't feel pit of character...but I feel like you can still be an honorable warrior and an ******* at the same time.

Most definitely.

Honor and assholedom are not- and have never been- mutually exclusive.

Yeah, but what if spoilers:

Ultra Instinct chose THAT precise moment to overload.

end of spoilers

That would have been amazing, if for no other reason than the reactions from oh so many people on the internet and irl.

He was just making a point, notice he stopped trying immediately after the first blast.

That and- given the way the fight was going- I don't think he have wanted to waste the energy on something that wouldn't have helped him win even if he wasn't.

Mind, I don't think Zen'o would have given a crap if he succeeded; no rules against it.

Probably would have called Jiren super, super, super, super amazing, even.

Also, when

spoilers:

UI started overloading and bursting out black/purple energy, I thought it was Hakai. Maybe it is? At first I was like "....Jiren don't got no Hakai. TOPPO, YOU DIDN'T EVEN FIGHT GOKU THIS TIME DID YOU?!

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Toppo secretly put Hakai energy into Vegeta that transferred to Goku when Goku got the energy from Vegeta, and it simply took that long to trigger?

end of spoilers

[Hiromi]

Let's be honest here, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, and even the androids never actually killed any of Goku's friends(some despite trying harder than others). Meanwhile Goku punched a hole straight through Demon King Piccolo, broke Nappa's back, and blasted Freeza to the point everyone thought he was dead

[KingofPie]

The thing about the manga is that the version of Jiren in it is almost certainly based on the first idea that Toyotaro and the anime stuff got.

Jiren was initially thought up as a chatty JUSTICE type after they got his design from Toriyama, but Toriyama said no and that he was supposed to be a strong quiet guy so it got shifted to Toppo.

Doesn't Toriyama help Toyotaro write the maga...or does Toyotaro just work off the ideas he gives hum like the anime staff does?

Then yeah, I assume there is some other quality or something about GoD's that isn't too clear at the moment. Or Jiren is too stubborn to cast off his...idea of absolute strength, for...more...absolute strength?

Or maybe he has butthurt against the whole idea, or something. Who knows.

Its hilarious how Jiren wouldn't even need Hakai if he became a GoD.

[Noldere]

Then yeah, I assume there is some other quality or something about GoD's that isn't too clear at the moment.

I get the feeling that a (proper) God of Destruction is more force of nature than anything, in the sense that criteria for what needs destroying likely doesn't necessarily coincide with the ideals of justice.

Or Jiren is too stubborn to cast off his...idea of absolute strength, for...more...absolute strength?

Given his idea of absolute strength is already stronger than the other guys idea of absolute strength...

Well, it'd be like offering the 5e D&D version of the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to a guy that already has 20 Strength.

[master of read]

not sure how to feel about this ep.

on one hand, we had a great fight with a pretty good conclusion. on the other, that "power of friendship" crap felt so out of place. i mean, if they were talking about someone like luffy, naruto, ichigo or gon, then it might have worked. but goku? nope.

and jiren's outburst was good for his character but that scene felt so OOC for him. even if he was freaking out and having PTSD flashbacks and all, it still felt wrong of his character.

also, that whole "goku gets up to fight for his universe" thing was a bit hollow, since almost everyone else, jiren included, were fighting for their lives, families and universes. what makes goku's "fight for the people i love" thing more important than jiren's or anyone else's?

[Miburo]

Let's be honest here, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, and even the androids never actually killed any of Goku's friends(some despite trying harder than others). Meanwhile Goku punched a hole straight through Demon King Piccolo, broke Nappa's back, and blasted Freeza to the point everyone thought he was dead

I can't argue that, although if we go off of semantics, he was talking about hurting his friends, not killing them(Unless sub wrong). Pretty much the majority of his friends at least managed to greviously harm one another, I think. Or atleast **** them right the **** up.

But I do suppose Goku is more reasonable about maiming than murder.

[Len Ikari145]

Let's be honest here, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, and even the androids never actually killed any of Goku's friends(some despite trying harder than others). Meanwhile Goku punched a hole straight through Demon King Piccolo, broke Nappa's back, and blasted Freeza to the point everyone thought he was dead

And Goku was willing to strike down Goku Black after seemingly beating the latter into unconsciousness - an action that sharply goes against his principles. That was after Black bragged about killing his wife and youngest son.

[Siriel]

Doesn't Toriyama help Toyotaro write the maga...or does Toyotaro just work off the ideas he gives hum like the anime staff does?

Both go through the same process of Toriyama early draft -> suggest ideas -> adjustment -> make stuff up with Toriyama encouraging them to make up their own ideas so he has less work to do. Neither is some sort of "true vision" from Toriyama, though he sometimes gives Toyotaro pointers like telling him to stop drawing the Supreme Kais like Zamasu so damn wide, which is obviously not so easy to do for an anime.

We got a fair amount of information on his vague outline this arc so for example:

The following characters had designs in his first draft: Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo (rest of the Pride Troopers are by Toei), Ribrianne (fat version; transforming from a slim girl was an idea of the anime staff), Sidra and Quitela. Jiren had his backstory and power, Toppo had being a GoD candidate and being the Pride Trooper leader. None of them had any personality attached. The staff made Jiren a chatty JUSTICE, Toriyama said he should be silent so they gave it to Toppo.

The U7 team (including Buu->Freeza switcheroo), the idea of who they lost to and who was left in the end Also the U7 vs U11 battle flow (presumably starting with the Dyspo vs Gohan/Freeza fight there).

Ultra Instinct as a form for Goku, and of course the general idea of the tournament being a team free for all.

Someone at Toei brought up that Broly made $$$ (pardon; "was popular"), so they made Kale (they made her a woman so she wouldn't just be Broly). Toriyama designed Caulifla to go with her.

Consider how important those two were in the story and you realize how much freedom Toriyama leaves Toei to do their own stuff, and the same goes for Toyotaro.