Downtown Rumbles: Sharp's Scotch Bar

[The Arbiter]

Just in case it gets lost somewhere:

Was the nipple definition really necessary, internet?

This is what Nik actually said.

Nik: Nipples showing through armour? How sexist and objectifying!

This is how Cody has decided to perceive what Nik said, complete with added exclamation points.

Nik even then went on to say it was /less about objectification/ and more about how he was irked that nipples could make any sort of impression in leather, as a point of realism.

[The Arbiter]

Sigh... I suppose as long as I'm here I should at least try to give my opinion (although I'll probably regret it later) and say I don't really mind when comic book heroes are drawn to be sexy.

People that look like Superman don't show up all that often in real life, and I'm not just talking muscles.

What REALLY gets me is when an underaged hero is drawn in a provocative manner. Like... what's the point? Why go there? The comic where Supergirl is kidnapped by Darkseid and brainwashed is perhaps one of the worst offenders of this. Like she is supposed to be 15 but is drawn in some of the most ridiculous outfits and poses imaginable lol. Just weird.

PS- I asked my wife about this and she shrugged and said "who tf cares" :P Now I feel silly lol.

[Cody]

Comicbook characters are some of the largest and most visible pop culture figures on earth. Not in the West, on the planet. Wonder Woman is arguably one of the most widely recognised female icons on the planet. Those images and the meta surrounding those characters is important and does inform how people think about themselves and others. You can say this isn't true but you are incorrect.

I am not, because there is no research or evidence to support this claim. The only thing comparable would be video games which have the same things and more, except research has been done revolving around that and it's been proven that it has zero affect on the players mind and how they view the world when it comes to both violence, and sexism. Comicbook characters who are drawn unrealistically are no different, and female characters aren't the only ones who are done so.

This is literally how propaganda works. If you use stereotypes to colour people's perceptions of a certain kind of person. Now, when I say propaganda, people default to thinking about minstrel shows, anti-semitic cartoons and other such far right stuff which is an extreme example. Everyday presentation in media works in the same way. It works on a very deep unconscious sort of level, to the point where most people aren't actually aware of it changing their opinions.

This only applies to political comics, and even then that is suspect as they are featured in newspapers and such and are/were "supposedly" to be a representation/mock of real life. Comicbook characters are not.

Women in comics have been mostly designed around being visually sexy as a core attribute. Not strong, which is what being buff is, sexy. They are created to titilate their readers and be appealing, primarily, to boys/young men. Now, this has been being challenged more and more with more female artists and writers getting work and more of an awareness that they should try and avoid this being as universal as it has been historically.

This is false. Yes that was the main intent for their bodies, but their personality, actions, and the like had nothing to do with it unless it were characters such as Catwoman and Black Cat, who are more like kunoichi in that way where they use their bodies as another form of weapon/distraction. There is nothing to suggest that those characters made women feel bad about their bodies like the air brushed models on billboards did. And a lot of female writers? Draw women the same way with no one telling them to do so. Just look up the Analogue: a hate story series as an example, as well as the developers upcoming game which is basically one big echhi lesbian fest. The developer is a Lesbian, and drew her characters that way because she found them attractive.

And if straight women didn't find buff men sexy, then magic mike wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as it was/is.

Male characters being strong buff boys is a different thing. They are meant to be strong and developed muscular structure reinforces that message. Muscles imply strength, tits imply sexy. This is problematic and it does have an effect on reinforcing the stereotype that female characters are defined by being sexy rather than most of their other attributes. Muscles are component of being sexy, sure, but they serve another purpose.

That also isn't true. If it was, fans of Captain Marvel would not have been so unhappy with her major change in personality as they are now. It had nothing to do with her body(other than that she is absurdly androgynous now), but the change of personality. Cass Kain? Same deal, no one cares about how she looks, but that she is nothing like she used to be. It's quite clear that people cared more about the characters personalities than their physical appearances.

A really good way to see the difference in action and how jarring it is to see male characters being treated like female characters standpoint, I would advise people to look at The Hawkeye Initiative. It's hilarious and informative.

Not really as it misses the point. Women also like more powerful men, that is was they find appealing. One could argue that putting men in a positions of strength and power while having unrealistic body proportions themselves is indeed "sexy" to women as their sexuality is more mental than ours(which is mostly physical). I personally felt terrible about my body when I was a kid whenever I looked at characters like Batman and Superman. They were tall, buff, and confident. Everything I never was, and when characters exclaimed how they were "real men" for being such, I felt like utter garbage about myself. That because I was short, I am not considered a "real man"(which is actually a thing that us shorter guys go through sometimes with not being perceived or respected as much as normal men, let alone taller than average ones), and because I was lanky, I wasn't as good as them, I was more like a woman than a man. But that was when I was a teen, and while the comicbook characters in question amplified these feelings, it mostly started from real world male models that I looked at. Once I grew up and started working out, those things no longer bothered me. I still get shit for my height sometimes, but I can manage that now.

My point is: the main impact on my insecurity was real life influences while comicbook characters just reinforced what I saw IRL a bit. Then I realized my main problem was how I perceived myself. It didn't impact my view of others or the like and never once did. Which is why things like what you got a little annoyed about, I no longer see as a big deal when compared to real life models that do impact our view of ourselves, especially when they are airbrushed while being hailed as something you should look like. Comicbook characters are way to unrealistic to be so.

[Cody]

Just in case it gets lost somewhere:



This is what Nik actually said.



This is how Cody has decided to perceive what Nik said, complete with added exclamation points.

Nik even then went on to say it was /less about objectification/ and more about how he was irked that nipples could make any sort of impression in leather, as a point of realism.

Yeah but when I pointed out how characters like Spiderman do the same thing, that was when the "objectifying" thing came up. Even though Spidermans tights are so tight that it looks more like body paint than tights because tights can't get that...tight.

Agreed about the under-aged stuff. Though the maker of Sailor Moon wasn't much better in that way...and that was a straight chick drawing 14 year olds in scantly clad clothing.

[The Arbiter]

Again, male and female superheroes both have crazy unrealistic body types. Nevermind muscles or buffness, Nu 52 Superman was just straight up handsome. :P

Outfits are a weirder/bigger issue for me than body personally.

[Cody]

Again, male and female superheroes both have crazy unrealistic body types. Nevermind muscles or buffness, Nu 52 Superman was just straight up handsome. :P

Outfits are a weirder/bigger issue for me than body personally.

Eh, only when it's kids. When it's adults? I've seen people wear tighter and skimpier in clubs, so I don't see it as a problem.

[The Arbiter]

Agreed about the under-aged stuff. Though the maker of Sailor Moon wasn't much better in that way...and that was a straight chick drawing 14 year olds in scantly clad clothing.

Oh, don't get me started on anime.

[The Arbiter]

Eh, only when it's kids. When it's adults? I've seen people wear tighter and skimpier in clubs, so I don't see it as a problem.

I have never seen a person in a club wear anything like old school Moondragon is all in saying lol. Maybe in bizarre and obscure runway fashion shows.

https://goo.gl/images/D1Bo5Y

I mean... Oof

[Cody]

Oh, don't get me started on anime.

Just read the Pokemon mangas. Either the ones based off the games, or the one based off the anime. Misty is 11, yet is constantly written in either skimpy outfits or nearly nude when she isn't in her iconic attire. While some of the game characters like Green have absurdly short skirts.

[Cody]

I have never seen a person in a club wear anything like old school Moondragon is all in saying lol. Maybe in bizarre and obscure runway fashion shows.

https://goo.gl/images/D1Bo5Y

I mean... Oof

I have, though that's mostly in house parties than clubs.

[Sharpandpointies]

I should mention that I have been told I don't always notice that some of the things I type...and say IRL can be taken as insulting. I'm usually compared to the "Sheldon" character from Big Bang Theory that way in more ways than one. I am trying to fix that though so I am sorry if I insulted anyone.

Understood.

ONE of the fastest ways of determining if something is problematic (there are more ways of doing so) is: Before pressing send, take five minutes, do something else, and come back and reread. If ANYTHING there is something you wouldn't want to see directed at yourself, possibly it needs some work.

Nobody likes to be told that something they hold important is infantile or unimportant. Or that they are 'crying' when they are not. Etc.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I have never seen a person in a club wear anything like old school Moondragon is all in saying lol. Maybe in bizarre and obscure runway fashion shows.

https://goo.gl/images/D1Bo5Y

I mean... Oof

Not gonna lie, I've worn similar in public.

[Guy1]

And this is the loser that Siren thinks is scarier than Zoom.

[Sharpandpointies]

I am not, because there is no research or evidence to support this claim. The only thing comparable would be video games which have the same things and more, except research has been done revolving around that and it's been proven that it has zero affect on the players mind and how they view the world when it comes to both violence, and sexism. Comicbook characters who are drawn unrealistically are no different, and female characters aren't the only ones who are done so.

Actually, like many things, that will depend on the research one chooses to follow. Being fair, there has been plenty of research that concludes the opposite. The idea that it has been 'proven' either way isn't something that stands up when one looks at the vast amount of conflicting research.

One needs to choose, in this case, what one believes.

Cass Kain? Same deal, no one cares about how she looks, but that she is nothing like she used to be. It's quite clear that people cared more about the characters personalities than their physical appearances.

Just because Cass was brought up, I'm going to note that Cassandra Cain has actually never really been drawn in the manner that has been discussed, here. The only times she has come close has been in guest issues, like in Teen Titans appearances. It's a poor example.

[Guy1]

Actually, like many things, that will depend on the research one chooses to follow. Being fair, there has been plenty of research that concludes the opposite. The idea that it has been 'proven' either way isn't something that stands up when one looks at the vast amount of conflicting research.

One needs to choose, in this case, what one believes.



Just because Cass was brought up, I'm going to note that Cassandra Cain has actually never really been drawn in the manner that has been discussed, here. The only times she has come close has been in guest issues, like in Teen Titans appearances. It's a poor example.