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  1. #31
    'Fro, yo. CraigTheCylon's Avatar
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    Baron Zemo. Bear with me a second.

    I only just got done reading Avengers Undercover (sorry I missed its solo issues) and the idea of the Masters of Evil growing from just a random team-up of bad guys to a big underground criminal city really struck a chord with me, and while that series doesn't bother to devote any time to the hows and whys of its workings, I feel like there's a great story buried in there. Picture Helmut Zemo not just as a supervillain, but as the elite of supervillains, and he's trying to make a stable black market for guns, drugs, muscle-for-hire, you name it - except that every single person he can find to help, he knows he can't trust, because they're all scumbags. Even his closest confidantes are either suspicious (Madame Masque), insane (Daimon Hellstrom) or just dumb (Constrictor). It's a dangerous game of plans within plans and double-crosses heaped on top of each other, and the only way to win is to simply be better than everyone else. Lucky he's Zemo and that kinda comes with the name.

    Short version: Think the royal family drama of Inhumans except everyone's a bastard.
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  2. #32
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigTheCylon View Post
    Baron Zemo. Bear with me a second.

    I only just got done reading Avengers Undercover (sorry I missed its solo issues) and the idea of the Masters of Evil growing from just a random team-up of bad guys to a big underground criminal city really struck a chord with me, and while that series doesn't bother to devote any time to the hows and whys of its workings, I feel like there's a great story buried in there. Picture Helmut Zemo not just as a supervillain, but as the elite of supervillains, and he's trying to make a stable black market for guns, drugs, muscle-for-hire, you name it - except that every single person he can find to help, he knows he can't trust, because they're all scumbags. Even his closest confidantes are either suspicious (Madame Masque), insane (Daimon Hellstrom) or just dumb (Constrictor). It's a dangerous game of plans within plans and double-crosses heaped on top of each other, and the only way to win is to simply be better than everyone else. Lucky he's Zemo and that kinda comes with the name.

    Short version: Think the royal family drama of Inhumans except everyone's a bastard.
    So....Game of Thrones then.

    I think that could be an interesting concept for a film, but isnt Zemo a former Nazi? I dont think any film staring a Nazi (current or former) is going to get anywhere. But, I'll admit I dont know much about Zemo's history.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Superior Spider-foes? As a comedy obviously.

    Venom could carry a movie.

    So could Magneto. Easily.

    Thunderbolts too.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    In regards to the likes of Red Skull and Carnage.

    Having a villain headline a film is one thing. These movies dont have to be inspirations or provide role models for children. And people are smart enough to understand that while Captain America might be someone to emulate, Taskmaster is not, even if they both have solo films. These movies only have to entertain, and exploring the rich world of the MCCU through the eyes of the criminal element could be a lot of fun and an interesting psychological exercise; just look at the success of Superior Spider-Man and his Superior Foes. It can totally work. But there's also a line where it goes from being fun and original to just being offensive; and characters like Red Skull not only cross that line, but kick some puppies while they're crossing it. I couldnt imagine a movie featuring someone like the Skull working, because one element you basically have to have is that the protagonist has to have an antagonist who is noticeably worse. And no one is worse than the likes of the Skull and the other villains who share similar traits. It'd be a story where evil wins. Not just a lesser evil, or a misguided evil, but Evil evil, with a capital letter and everything.

    Monsters like Carnage, they could work as horror movies, like someone already said. And honestly, a movie where Carnage jumps out of the shadows and tears some idiot teenagers apart (like every slasher flick ever made) would be a pretty interesting way to approach such characters. It'd also be a good way to showcase some of the supporting characters too. Such a Carnage movie wouldn't have to have Spider-Man in it at all, but could instead focus on Ben Ulrich and JJJ instead. Oh, and Mary Jane, because every horror movie has to have the super hot female.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans View Post
    Superior Spider-foes? As a comedy obviously.

    Venom could carry a movie.

    So could Magneto. Easily.

    Thunderbolts too.
    And they're all controlled by studios outside of Disney/Marvel, except the Thunderbolts. Which was part of my original question; Marvel has a lot of interesting villains who "could" carry a movie, but most of them fall under the X-Men or Spider-Man or Fantastic Four umbrellas, and thus are out of Marvel's reach.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #36
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Magneto. Seriously, that movie could even win an oscar for best actor or movie.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So....Game of Thrones then.

    I think that could be an interesting concept for a film, but isnt Zemo a former Nazi? I dont think any film staring a Nazi (current or former) is going to get anywhere. But, I'll admit I dont know much about Zemo's history.
    Zemo's commitment to the Nazi cause was never all that strong. The first Zemo worked with the Nazi's during WWII, but IDK if he ever completely bought into their ideology (I'd have to back an check to be sure though). The second and current Zemo has explicitly rejected the Nazi ideology and expressed his disgust with it.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Zemo's commitment to the Nazi cause was never all that strong. The first Zemo worked with the Nazi's during WWII, but IDK if he ever completely bought into their ideology (I'd have to back an check to be sure though). The second and current Zemo has explicitly rejected the Nazi ideology and expressed his disgust with it.
    Ah, okay. Then that's not so bad at all. Hell, Zemo's involvement with the party could be used in flashback, just to show how disgusted he is/was with them. Little bit of Magneto in there; "I might be an evil prick, but not as bad as these other guys"
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #39
    Incredible Member heiro5's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's Doctor Doom. But as realized by Marvel Studios, not as he stands as a Fox property.

    And not even just his origin, which would be good, but something like Roger Stern's Dr Strange-Dr Doom story about rescuing Doom's mother's soul (with or without Strange). It would even have lots of opportunities for short flashbacks that could give lots of origin background.

    And it opens with Doom handing the Avengers their asses.

    Badass technology, amazing sorcery (what a combo), an ego-driven dictator who maybe comes to a better place in relation to his own who or something. But i see it, and it's awesome. And his science is science, his magic is not science it's magic (although to be fair if you are doing research and developing practices that can be replicated there is.some science to that).

  10. #40
    explorer SXVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Just saw this. And i don't think that's necessarily true, I mean, Magneto has been portrayed as a deep and sympathetic for decades now, he hops back and forth over the line from anti-villain to anti-hero all the time (and sometimes into outright villain, but that sympathetic backstory does help soften him even at his worst). But I don't think his gray nature has diminished the X-Men, I think the fact that his and Xavier's ideals are separated by very little is part of the appeal of the franchise. Also, I just plain don't think all superhero comics should be about good vs evil. I mean, that can work, I think some villains should stay villains to the core, like Red Skull. But I don't want to read/watch the same types of characters duking it out all the time, variety is good, and you get that variety by making them well rounded characters. And when it comes to the villains, that usually means making them at least a little sympathetic, because as soon as you give them motivations beyond 'for the evulz!' you can begin to identify with them, even if they are doing horrible things.

    As for Loki... In the comics I wouldn't say he is a villain right now, hasn't been for a few years. But in the movies, he still is, no matter how much some fangirls want to believe otherwise. He showed a glimmer of being redeemed i the second Thor movie, but they snatched that away with the ending. I still think he could work, though.
    There's always room for variety and a place for anti-heroes and redemption [if it be true and not simply for story], just saying i don't think it should be the standard where so many villains are on a journey, and sympathetic, etc.. it doesn't have to always be good vs evil but in my view and opinion that should remain the underlying narrative within the entirety of the greater picture, well.. more precisely "duality" not simply good vs evil, light vs dark would be more appropriate than good vs evil. I disagree obvs that it hasn't had an effect on the heroes though [as i previously stated]... i mean just look at the state of the heroes in the Marvel U, there's barely anyone i have to truly find hope with and that shines bright. If there's an impulse to mention Captain America, i'd preempt by stating i disagree with that, which if anyone has read some of my posts would know i'm not a Captain America fan an don't believe he shines brightly as it means to me. Captain America basically represents organized religion in my view, for a lack of a way to better explain it... not exactly but that's the easiest way to explain or translate in using that example. [Although, having true villains like Red Skull certainly helps and he definitely shines brighter than the dark side villains]

    Loki in the movies [as with the comics], with the Dark World specifically has shown to me that he's more "chaotic neutral" than villain. He's a potential threat for sure... but for now and at the moment i personally wouldn't classify him as villain.

    How i'd classify or define it...

    Dark Chaos: Is the absolute darkest villains, there's no method to the madness... there's very little chance of redemption - the light doesn't exist here and isn't welcome, the biggest threats that exist to order.... Darkseid, Joker, Red Skull, Thanos types would fall into this category.

    Dark Order: Would be slightly above the dark chaos, there is some method to the madness... while villains, there exists the slight chance of redemption, the light hasn't been completely shut out it can still break through and there are deeper motivations or cause beyond self... Someone like Magneto/Lex Luthor would fall under this category. Or, like someone who's been greatly abused in their life and has been nurtured with darkness to become what they are.

    Neutral Chaos: In between the light and darkness at the grey, there's chance to fall on either side... chaotic being more chance to fall to the dark side, and a bigger potential threat. Someone like Loki, Namor would fall into this category to where they don't really exist within the defining duality of light and darkness and it's endless and eternal battle.

    Neutral Order: The direct contrast to Neutral chaos, duality of.... the same but closer to the light and order and pretty much not a threat to order. Someone like Catwoman falling there.

    Light Chaos: Heroes of the light, but much more flawed... would be more willing to get their hands dirty and do what's necessary for the light to overcome the darkness, a different perspective on the light... someone like Hawkman, Green Arrow, Iron Man falling into this category.

    Light Order: The best examples the universe has to offer, the greatest examples of us all and purest examples of the light.... Superman, Spider-man types.

    Duality: Dark/Light chaos/order | Grey chaos/order

    I have no need to identify, relate or care for the villains... i already have that with the heroes. My connection isn't with the dark side, it is the threat to my connection that must be overcome. I don't care why Thanos does what he does for example, there usually isn't a logical reasoning behind dark chaos. I don't believe it makes good stories at all because as i already pointed out it fades the light and also my connection in the process. I read super-hero comics for the duality, for the light overcoming darkness and the hope it brings and my connection to the light/heroes. However, like i said... there is room for variety and a place for redemption, anti-heroes, etc...as long as balance is maintained and it's not the standard, which i feel it has become the standard recently.

    I have absolutely no interest in seeing the dark side/villains driving movies/TV series, i'd probably watch just because it would have subjects, actors and characters of interest to me [which, i'd basically watch anything relative] but it would be despite itself and it wouldn't be because of the villain at all, and i think it would've been a better approach hero driven to begin with. [Basically, it seems pointless not to focus on the heroes to begin with... i don't find heroes boring or the never ending fight for light to overcome uninteresting, and don't find the contrast to be a better story, etc.. and most heroes aren't perfect either, i know most people like there to be flaws so it's relatable and identifiable which most heroes do have flaws of some kind or some aspect, and so.. it's not like there's a great reason to seek out villains for this when the heroes can also have flaws]
    Last edited by SXVA; 11-28-2014 at 08:42 PM.
    I wanna ditch the logical... don't let me let you go...., living for the only thing i know, hanging by a moment... nom nom coffee nom nom tea.

  11. #41

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    I mean, James Gunn WANTS TO DO THIS FILM!!!

  12. #42
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    I think there is a lot of potential in a movie about villains especially within the context of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. On the one hand you have the “Walter Whites” (for lack of a better term) the sympathetic monsters and as has been shown a thousand times people are into that. So you clearly can do a story with some of the more “grey” villains.

    Another way to use villains is as a set up for a later MCU film as an example Empire Strikes Back really was the bad guys movie. Yes it had heroes and in it they all lost pretty badly, in part because this was a set-up for return of the Jedi. Considering how interconnected the MCU is this is a formula that could work really well. Have a Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil movie where you set up the bad guys and follow it up with a mash up with the heroes.

    You could also do a set up as a heist movie where the villains set out to steal a something for a benefactor. At the end of the movie the benefactor turns out as the main villain in a follow up heroes movie and the item is some kind of a MacGuffin for the villain in that movie, his super weapon or power source or whatever.

    Using pretty much any of these very basic sketches you could produce some pretty damn good movies with just about any villain. There really isn't anything all that new about this either, comics have been doing this for years.

  13. #43
    Yahtzee! quinnzel's Avatar
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    I think...

    Doom
    Magneto
    Carnage (as someone mentioned, this as a horror flick? That'd be epic, although I highly doubt it'd ever be made that way)
    Venom
    Mystique (I think she could carry her own film just fine, but if they decided to do a film with Jennifer Lawrence's portrayal of her younger I think more people might go see it because she's so popular right now)
    Harley Quinn, New Suicide Squad, Grayson, Batgirl, Red Sonja, The Mighty Thor, Catwoman, Bitch Planet, Secret Six, Silk, Descender, Sabrina, Archie, JLA, DC Bombshells, Black Magick, Paper Girls, Tokyo Ghost, Vampirella, Scarlet Witch, A-Force, Extraordinary X-Men, X-Men '92, The Legend of Wonder Woman, All-New Wolverine, Power Rangers, Hellcat, Monstress, Descender

  14. #44

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    Here's the thing though, most films that try to reach the widest audiences won't make the villains pure villains.

    Example, Maleficent. The film could have been really cool and had a wild villainous lead role, and they scrapped all of it for a crappy "She's really the good guy and the king is evil." The movie was awful.

    Parents won't take their kids to see a film about a morally dubious character.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Myetche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quinnzel View Post
    Mystique (I think she could carry her own film just fine, but if they decided to do a film with Jennifer Lawrence's portrayal of her younger I think more people might go see it because she's so popular right now)
    Seeing as how DoFP has started to make Mystique a little more sympathetic and self-reliant compared to her past movie portrayals as Magneto's mute hench-wench, I'd say seeing her get a film that explores what makes her tick would go over well about now. Perhaps a kind of Ocean's 11 scenario where she and and a Brotherhood of Mutants are plotting a big heist. It would give Mystique the chance to prove herself as a master planner, leader, and manipulator like she is in the comics.

    Just one thing I would want... put her in the damn white dress already! No one's gonna take her seriously when she's strutting in the nude all the time.
    She is Kamala Khan... The Magnificent Ms. Marvel!

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