Star Wars VII

[healed1337]

Lol yeah Finn's good shooting totally balances out Rey being Multilingual, Ace Pilot, Genius Mechanic, Force Prodigy and Fighting Badass...GTFO. Finn is not anywhere near equal to Rey in skills. Rey is 50% shooter aint all that bad for a girl who is never used a Blaster before and doesnt remotely balance out her instaskill gain as the plot demands it not to mention everyone loves her...Finn falls in love, Kylo is obsessed, Leia is randomly hugging her, and Han wants her on the crew. Any mistake she makes she also gets to cleanup captured escapes before mentally and phyiscally beating Kylo, releases Rathars seals them up, etc meanwhile Finn just keeps losing after trying really hard.

Uh ... for the first two minutes of that falcon chase scene, Rey keeps smashing into buildings and grinding against the ground as she figures out the ship's balancing. That's not instant. As she explains in one line, she's flown ships before, just not off planet. Both Rey's Survival Guide and Before the Awakening also explain that she has a working flight simulator in her ATAT home, which she frequently uses to help pass the time (especially during 3-day long sand storms).

Both the mechanic skills and fighting skills are pretty much required to even survive on Jakku, plus force sensitive people tend to be good at that stuff anyway. Even Leia is portrayed as at least a competent pilot and mechanic in Empire Strikes Back (she was flying the falcon immediately before they entered the asteroid field, and Han wouldn't have trusted her behind the controls if she wasn't a good pilot). Fleeing 2 tie-fighters in a freighter that can tank their blasts through a junk yard that she spends a lot of her time scavenging from hardly compares to pretty much any of the flying we've seen from other main characters, like Poe in the same movie, Han in the Asteroid field where nobody is manning the guns, or any of Anakin's piloting in the prequels.

You do know how common multilingualism is in the real world, right? You go to Montreal, Quebec and almost everyone speaks both English and French. You go to Rome in Italy and almost everyone speaks at least English and Italian, and at least one of the following: German, French, Greek, Spanish, or some sort of Eastern European language. And just like Rey's piloting, her understanding droid and wookie are explained in the books. She even learned about Han Solo through a wookie customer of Unkar Plutt's, and funny enough, she thought that Chewie was the captain because of their stories.

Not everyone loves her. Unkar Plutt clearly doesn't care, otherwise he wouldn't have sent the thugs after her, and he wouldn't always refer to her as "the girl". Han doesn't like her at first - he threatens to leave her on the nearest inhabited planet until he learns they're carrying the map to Luke. Also you do remember that Han offered Luke a job before the first Death Star battle, right? "Why don't you come with us? You're pretty handy in a fight, we could use you." And when Leia hugs her, at that point they both know they're force sensitive, and probably sense that they both mourn Han's loss. Although Chewie probably should have been in on that hug so I am willing to acknowledge that particular point as a writing flaw.

As for Kylo being obsessed with her, that's because he knows who she is. The novelization and the leaked script both confirm that (the script also confirms that Luke recognizes her). He even grew very upset when he learned that a girl helped Finn and BB-8 escape Jakku and it was the only time in the entire movie he directly threatened a First Order Officer. This is just speculation on my part, but my theory is that he's actually the one who put her on Jakku, possibly sparing her from the Jedi massacre and hoping that after he completes his own training, he can train her as an apprentice and overtake Snoke (like Vader hoped for Luke in Empire).

[JaggedFel]

yeah sorry a few minutes of crashing or failing a jedi mind trick twice before it works doesnt not equal not a sue in my book....I dont care how the skills are justified my point is Rey and Finn are horribly imbalanced nor do I think she should for instance be better at H2H then a guy who has been trained as a soldier since birth its BS. Also if Rey such a good mechanic why the frak is she a scavenger sure I could understand if she wanted a part for a project but her primary job is scavenger why?

To me she is Super Sue and Finn is racist joke of sidekick.

[TheInvisibleMan]

damn

people still mad about this

[healed1337]

yeah sorry a few minutes of crashing or failing a jedi mind trick twice before it works doesnt not equal not a sue in my book....I dont care how the skills are justified my point is Rey and Finn are horribly imbalanced nor do I think she should for instance be better at H2H then a guy who has been trained as a soldier since birth its BS. Also if Rey such a good mechanic why the frak is she a scavenger sure I could understand if she wanted a part for a project but her primary job is scavenger why?

To me she is Super Sue and Finn is racist joke of sidekick.

She's a scavenger because she's selling the parts for food - to survive. Did you even watch the movie? The planet of Jakku doesn't have enough of an economy for any dedicated mechanics - it's that much of a junk yard.

The Finn vs. Rey imbalance argument doesn't mean all that much when all Stormtroopers are trained from Birth since the Clone Wars, yet most heroes in the series easily outmatch them - including Luke, who grew up sheltered by an overprotective Aunt and Uncle who specifically wanted him not to get involved with the Galactic Civil War. Even Finn is well above his peers, being a much better shot than any stormtrooper we've ever seen before. After all, it's a fantasy - the heroes aren't meant to be realistic.

But now that you've directly mentioned the Mary Sue argument, let's look at what a real Mary Sue actually is. The term Mary Sue originated in an intentional parody of fan fiction (A Trekkie’s Tale by Paula Smith). The Mary Sue is by definition a wish fulfillment fantasy with characters inserted into other works of fiction. They’re usually given romantic relationships with pre-existing characters or shoved into a ridiculously important role. It’s especially telling if a prophecy is shoehorned into the story.

Wish fulfillment? Are you telling me that writers JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan (who also helped write Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi) and Michael Arndt (he wrote Toy Story 3) want to see themselves as a loner teenaged girl?

Is Rey the most important character in the story? Everything that happens in the plot is a team effort. Finn rescues Poe from the First Order and is equally responsible for getting BB-8 off of Jakku. In the battle of Starkiller Base, Han is the one who makes his landing approach at light speed, Finn figures out how to deactivate the shield, Han Solo comes up with the plan to destabilize the thermal oculator and Chewie enacts it. The only plot-related thing that Rey does on her own is that she defeats Kylo Ren in a lightsaber fight. If she was a Mary Sue, she would have done a lot more. It would have been Finn who was captured, she'd lead the rescue efforts and come up with the plan to destroy the oculator. A Mary Sue would have also jumped on Han Solo's job effort, while she couldn't let go of her abandonment issues.

Romance with existing characters? This movie doesn’t even have a romantic subplot, unless you count Han and Leia’s which continues from the original trilogy.

In other words, she doesn't even qualify for the academic definition of the Mary Sue, too powerful or not. But don't take my word for it. Fantasy author JM Frey wrote her master's thesis on the Mary Sue. In this nearly 2-hour video, she explains that not only can't Rey be a Mary Sue, but if anything, Finn fits the bill better - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbltbE69xJ0 Be warned though, there are a lot of tangents in this video.

If you want to use the urban dictionary version where it’s just a character who’s too powerful or too good at things, then that definition has broadened to the point where it’s utterly meaningless and you won’t be able to argue against the following characters being Mary Sues (or Marty Stus if you prefer).

Anakin Skywalker, James Bond, Aragon and Legolas from Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings, Superman, Batman, Iron Man, Wolverine, Jean Grey, Cable, Nate Grey, Harry Potter … I could go on.

So here are your options. You go with the academic definition and Rey cannot be a Mary Sue, you go with the broad definition and all of those characters are Mary Sues and it’s not inherently a bad thing, or they’re all Mary Sues and therefore, they’re all terrible characters.

[TheInvisibleMan]

Chewbacca is a Hairy Sue


see what I did there?

[JaggedFel]

I am supposed to listen some white feminist that claims Finn is a Mary Sue. Finn who drinks from a through like an animal, who gets whipped by Rey then tasered like a criminal, Finn who cant even name himself, Finn who is the first star wars lead to ever get beat by an unnamed stormtrooper, Finn who has no special powers and ends this movie in a coma after getting whipped by Kylo Ren. Finn who is comic relief and sidekick clearly inferior to the white lead like a 1000 other black character is a Mary Sue GTFO. Meanwhile Rey who has every skill in the book, saves herself, beats Kylo Ren twice, ends the movie with the Falcon and the Skywalker Lightsaber is less of a Mary Sue then Finn. That lady needs her Masters Revoked.

No but KK who runs LucasFilm is a white women and she has said repeatedly wanted a Strong Female Character ie strong white women, black guys not so much.And the writers u mentioned all have kids and.or grandkids so they can be writing it for them for all I know.

Sorry you lost all credibility Finn a Mary Sue, I cant even take you seriously anymore.

How can you even argue Rey is ridiculously important she ends this movie going to get trained by Luke SKywalker and showed more rapid force skill development then any Star Wars Character including the CHosen One himself Anakin Skywalker. As for Romance that is certainly debatable plenty of people see setup for Finn or Kylo Romances. I mean christ Finn doesnt even fit your list of examples. He is not the most powerful dude around like most of your list ie Superman, Jean, Nate, etc and he aint a Super Badass like Wolverine, Batman, etc or a chosen one like Harry.

There is no way to argue Finn and Han Solo are both Sues...it cant work because Han is the dude every guy wants to be...no one wants to be Finn like that...Han Solo shoots first, is an ace pilot, has the best quips, gets the girl, has the most iconic ship in history and one of the most badass sidekicks of all time. Finn has Zero of that.

[healed1337]

I am supposed to listen some white feminist that claims Finn is a Mary Sue. Finn who drinks from a through like an animal, who gets whipped by Rey then tasered like a criminal, Finn who cant even name himself, Finn who is the first star wars lead to ever get beat by an unnamed stormtrooper, Finn who has no special powers and ends this movie in a coma after getting whipped by Kylo Ren. Finn who is comic relief and sidekick clearly inferior to the white lead like a 1000 other black character is a Mary Sue GTFO. Meanwhile Rey who has every skill in the book, saves herself, beats Kylo Ren twice, ends the movie with the Falcon and the Skywalker Lightsaber is less of a Mary Sue then Finn. That lady needs her Masters Revoked.

No but KK who runs LucasFilm is a white women and she has said repeatedly wanted a Strong Female Character ie strong white women, black guys not so much.And the writers u mentioned all have kids and.or grandkids so they can be writing it for them for all I know.

Sorry you lost all credibility Finn a Mary Sue, I cant even take you seriously anymore.

How can you even argue Rey is ridiculously important she ends this movie going to get trained by Luke SKywalker and showed more rapid force skill development then any Star Wars Character including the CHosen One himself Anakin Skywalker. As for Romance that is certainly debatable plenty of people see setup for Finn or Kylo Romances. I mean christ Finn doesnt even fit your list of examples. He is not the most powerful dude around like most of your list ie Superman, Jean, Nate, etc and he aint a Super Badass like Wolverine, Batman, etc or a chosen one like Harry.

I never said that Finn is a Mary Sue, and neither did the author. She only said that he fits the bill better if you go by the academic definition, but if you watch the video, you'd know that she still doesn't agree that he's a Mary Sue. And what are your credentials to judge whether she earned her masters or not? Only Doctorates can judge a masters thesis, usually some sort of department director. Judging by your hard to read run-on sentences and awkward grammar, I'm guessing you're not a doctor. I'm not one, but that's not the point.

When Rey beats Kylo Ren's mind probe, she's surprised by it herself. The novel expands by saying that Kylo Ren unlocked something - the book's really vague on this point. It's one of many hints that she's been trained in the force before, and she's re-learning things, whether she realizes it or not. Actually the novel isn't very well written and I wouldn't even recommend it to people who like the movie.

And people shipping characters doesn't mean there are any actual hints of a romantic sub-plot. If anything, Rey kissing Finn on the forehead is friend zoning him. And if you actually look at the Urban definitions for the Mary Sue, they don't have to be powerful or super skilled to qualify. In fact there's a specific kind of Mary Sue that has absolutely no skill at all.

[JaggedFel]

I watched it now of course she cant argue that because she lose all credibility. Finn aint a Sue. No one wants to self insert into Star Wars as a character who cant even beat some random no name stormtrooper.

Sorry should be in the movie, most of the audience aint reading the book. There is no proof she was trained before and even if she did she had what a year that doesnt outstrip kylo having like 2 Decades and effing Skywalker Blood while Rey was going cold turkey skills atrophy overtime if you dont use them. She pulled it out of her ass and got force skills at a rate that exceeds even Anakin.

Debatable. U dont see any hints plenty do.

Also her whole argument is Rey is Luke which is absurd. Luke was a great pilot and a decent shot sure but that is all he had going for him beyond that he barely has force skills in ANH, he is not beating any darksiders (when he does fight one for the first time Vader crushes him), he is not a great mechanic telling Han how to fix his own ship, he is not multilingual, he gets his buttkicked repeatedly (by sandpeople and random bar patron) and has to be saved, when he fraks up he doesnt solve his own problems all the time he has to get saved. Luke of course had more then simulator experience and still manages to get shot down on Hoth but that is for later.

Meanwhile Rey beats up gangsters, Finn and Kylo Ren in this movie, she tells Han how to fix his own damn ship, and gains Force Skills at an absurd rate. Rey releases the Rathars by accident Finn pays the price and Rey solves the problem. Luke screws up Leia has to make the call to jump in the trash compactor and then they got to get saved by the droids. Even Anakin greatest Sue with Kenobi helping him still gets rekt by Dooku even after 10 years or so of training. They wouldnt even let precious little Rey get hurt like Anakin and Luke no Finn has to take the blows for Rey.

[healed1337]

I watched it now of course she cant argue that because she lose all credibility. Finn aint a Sue. No one wants to self insert into Star Wars as a character who cant even beat some random no name stormtrooper.

Sorry should be in the movie, most of the audience aint reading the book. There is no proof she was trained before and even if she did she had what a year that doesnt outstrip kylo having like 2 Decades and effing Skywalker Blood while Rey was going cold turkey skills atrophy overtime if you dont use them. She pulled it out of her ass and got force skills at a rate that exceeds even Anakin.

Debatable. U dont see any hints plenty do.

Also her whole argument is Rey is Luke which is absurd. Luke was a great pilot and a decent shot sure but that is all he had going for him beyond that he barely has force skills in ANH, he is not beating any darksiders (when he does fight one for the first time Vader crushes him), he is not a great mechanic telling Han how to fix his own ship, he is not multilingual, he gets his buttkicked repeatedly (by sandpeople and random bar patron) and has to be saved, when he fraks up he doesnt solve his own problems all the time he has to get saved. Luke of course had more then simulator experience and still manages to get shot down on Hoth but that is for later.

Meanwhile Rey beats up gangsters, Finn and Kylo Ren in this movie, she tells Han how to fix his own damn ship, and gains Force Skills at an absurd rate. Rey releases the Rathars by accident Finn pays the price and Rey solves the problem. Luke screws up Leia has to make the call to jump in the trash compactor and then they got to get saved by the droids. Even Anakin greatest Sue with Kenobi helping him still gets rekt by Dooku even after 10 years or so of training. They wouldnt even let precious little Rey get hurt like Anakin and Luke no Finn has to take the blows for Rey.

Like I said before, she ends up saying that Finn isn't a Mary Sue, so you obviously haven't watched it. Again, what are your credentials to say what credibility she has? Are you an author who's won international awards? Have you been involved in short films, documentaries or live Dr. Who panels with other academic experts?

How is the Rey is Luke argument absurd? She's talking about plot-wise, not skill-wise. We can't really compare Rey's flying to Luke's that well yet because Rey's only flown a freighter that can and did tank tie fighter blasts, while Luke mostly flies a fighter. In A New Hope, he's one of 3 survivors out of 30 ships, and he survived flying against Darth Vader.

Again, to even survive on a planet like Jakku, you need to learn how to defend yourself. Luke had a sheltered childhood with an Uncle who didn't want Luke to even know about the Jedi.

Yes, Rey did get hurt. Kylo Ren force pushed her into a tree and knocked her out for a bit. The Rey beats Kylo Ren argument for being a Mary Sue is quite possibly the weakest of them all. There are six simple but important things you need to know about Episode 7’s lightsaber fight before you even consider using this argument.

1 – Kylo Ren was injured.

We spent the entire movie watching Chewbacca’s Bowcaster blow Stormtroopers up. A single blast from that beast sends people flying, and on one occasion, sends two flying when Han shoots the ground beneath their feet. Kylo Ren took a shot from the bowcaster straight in the gut mere minutes before his lightsaber fight with Finn and Rey. He shouldn’t even be standing, let alone swinging around a lightsaber. When he pounds his gut, that's actually an ancient technique to overwhelm the pain receptors and numb the pain.

He also suffers three further lightsaber injuries before Rey grabs him by the wrist and overpowers him. It’s not hard to believe that a scavenger with climbing skills can physically overpower a seriously injured man, whether the scavenger is a man or a woman. Oh yeah, and Finn, a stormtrooper, caused one of those shoulder wounds.

2 – Rey spent most of the fight on the retreat.

After Rey force pulled Luke’s first lightsaber into her hands, she spent most of the fight on the retreat while Kylo outmatched her in skill. She held her own much better than Finn, but she still stumbled back frequently and often cut down trees just to slow Kylo down. It’s only after she allows the force to guide her that she overcomes Kylo.

3 – Kylo isn’t fully trained.

As impressive as Kylo’s abilities in the force are, he’s clearly not fully trained. In his fight with Rey, he makes several mistakes and opens himself up to her strikes. Snoke even says after Kylo loses that it’s time to complete his training. We can be sure that when Rey and Kylo fight again, and we know it will happen, that Kylo will be a much more formidable opponent.

Speaking as someone who is currently studying Kung Fu, I can tell that Kylo Ren isn’t that great of a duelist. On several occasions, he swings too wide and leaves himself open. Even Finn is smart enough to take advantage of this and strike Kylo’s shoulder before he was taken out of the fight.

4 – Kylo was emotionally weak at the time.

Minutes before his fight with Rey, Kylo killed his own father after it was made perfectly clear that he was struggling with the light side of the force. You can see in his eyes that he’s saddened by his father’s death. The novelization expands on this by saying straight up that instead of strengthening his resolve like he hoped, killing his father weakened it. So not only is Kylo seriously injured, but he’s in emotional turmoil. Rey on the other hand is fighting for survival as far as she knows, and that tends to give people focus.

5 – Kylo wasn’t trying to kill Rey.

While Rey was escaping from Daniel Craig’s Stormtrooper, Supreme Leader Snoke ordered Kylo to take Rey to him. He’s under orders to take Rey alive, so he’s clearly holding back. He even tries to convince her to let him teach her the ways of the force in a desperate move.

6 – Rey is already a skilled fighter

Remember when Finn first saw Rey on Jakku? She beat up several thugs with her staff before knocking him onto the ground. She’s clearly skilled with melee weapons, and for life on a junkyard planet like Jakku, it’s yet another necessity for survival. While it’s true that a single blade doesn’t work the same way as a staff weapon, many of the same concepts still apply. She even wields the lightsaber like it’s a staff for the first part of the fight if you watch closely, and that’s part of the reason that Kylo has her on the retreat for most of the fight.

[JaggedFel]

The fact she implies it in the first place is BS but of course gotta protect the white female character. Academic Integrity be damned. No one self inserts as the character who is constantly getting his buttkicked. I entertain Han as a sue. Anakin sure but Finn no.

No not really because skills impact the plot and Rey outclasses Luke so much it changes the Plot. Sure Vader had trouble putting Luke down but he was seconds away before Han showed up and saved Luke's Bacon. Rey saves herself every time.

I didnt say there is anything wrong with some self defense...my problem is if I am suppose believe as you claim that these First Order Troopers are better then the Empire then I expect a trooper trained sense birth to beat a scavenger who spends plenty of her time doing stuff besides fighting.

Oh boohoo she got KOed for a bit totally equivalent to having a hand chopped off or ending up in coma.



1. Sure he is injured but he is not so injured that he cant run down Finn and Rey while still having said injury. Sorry anyone with a catastrophic injury aint running that much. He still manages to fight just fine without it, he has enough injury to chuck Rey into a tree but not enough to toss Finn into one at the same time? Sure the bowcaster was strong it instakilled troopers and sent them flying yet it did none of that to Kylo why?

2. So kylo doesnt have the Force now. Rey says Force and suddenly she is beating the crap out of Ren. Yeah no.

3. Irrelevant Kylo is not fully trained so what he still has a lot more training then Rey and is called the frakking Jedi Killer. I dont care he is training is unfinished because Rey doesnt have any damn training except for your basically spec and even then she hasnt used those skills for about a decade unlike Kylo who should have 2 decades and wasnt taking any breaks.

4. This is your best argument although I should note emotional didnt hurt Anakin at all when it cames to fights...actually I cant think of a time being emotional weakened a Dark Sider.

5. So what Vader wasnt trying to kill Luke and he still beat him in the first fight with ease. Kylo has also shown he can toss her through trees to knock her out, freeze peoples movement and put Rey to sleep he has options. Lightsaber even cauterizes wounds instantly so really he could cut off her hands and they could replace them with prosthetics and Rey would still be fine. Not a good excuse.

6. I am sorry random thugs equal a dark sider trained by Luke Skywalker and Supreme Lord Snoke. Sure Reys basic staff skills should help with a lightsaber but those skills should not exceed those of a guy who has been using an actual lightsaber for years. Also the lightsaber is even bigger departure from a Staff to regular sword because lightsabers have all the mass in the hilt which totally changes the dynamic of the weapon. A lightsaber is like swinging your flashlight.

[healed1337]

The fact she implies it in the first place is BS but of course gotta protect the white female character. Academic Integrity be damned.

Ok, I'm going to ignore the debate to repeat this question for the third time, and make it as clear as I possibly can. What credentials do you have to judge the credibility of someone with a master's degree in Arts and Literature when it comes to interpreting fiction?

If you can't answer simple questions, then there's no point in continuing this.

[JaggedFel]

I am saying she is clearly biased because by her own definition Finn fails. No author or real star wars fan like JJ would ever self insert as a character who gets his *** beat by a stomtrooper. That one scene invalidates the argument and its dumb for her to even try it...Han she could make a convincing argument. Finn no she shouldnt imply it because Finn - Rey Dynamic is not even close to Han - Luke Dynamic. Sure she rejects it the fact she tried it in the first place is absurd.

Dance all you want I can sum up wins for Rey or Poe in 3 words (Rey beats Kylo, Poe destroys Starkiller) nice and simple so simple you dont even need to explain it to a fiver year old like you have to do when trying to call Finn a great character, you try that with Finn.

[LoneNecromancer]

How on earth could Finn be considered "closer to the definition of a Mary Sue"?

He was taken from his family as a kid to become an indoctrinated drone, PTSD's after his first firefight and has to run out before he gets court martialled I guess, gets his arse kicked by Rey, a tentacle monster, a Stormtrooper, Kylo... anyone I'm missing? He then ends the movie in a coma and doesn't even have a moment of pay-off for anything, besides I guess running back for Rey and even then she's already escaped herself.

[JaggedFel]

Agree Lone no star wars fan would ever write as a self insert the dude who gets beat by a unnamed stomtrooper...I dare healed to find one other example this has happened in Star Wars Canon anywhere including the EU to a main character. Every week you can watch Rebels where Ezra who is like what 13 and Sabine 16 or so routinely style on multiple Storm Troopers. If Rey is not a Mary Sue because she is the protagonist by the authors definition...then point to Poe who bounces from torture with ease to pilot the escape and just rekts a dozen or so tie fighters at Takadona with ease while having time to strafe the ground before being the man to take down the StarKiller...and that was with limited screen time. Cool, Badass, good quips, best pilot, attractive that all sounds like the new Han Solo to me.

Poe takes out StarKiller. Rey beats Kylo Ren. Finn does what that compares to those simple easily stated wins?

[Carabas]

Appeal to the mods: would it be at all possible to banish the whole Rey is a Mary Sue/Finn is a bumbling sidekick to its own thread? This is getting boring.