Star Wars VII

[RobinFan4880]

First things first. There is no such thing as a Star Wars Legends canon.
This would include those 2 million Death Star crew members.

And if they didn't know what they were signing on for they surely did know after Alderaan blew up.

Legends Canon exists in the same way the Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths canon exists. It is not canon for the current storyline but that does not mean it is not in fact a well defined and cohesive canon unto itself. The Disney cannon does not officially have a name but is being called the "New Canon" by those involved with the production. What else are we going to call the old canon? The EU makes no sense. Since Legends is what all books and old properties are being labeled as, it makes sense to adopt that term as the name for the canon of old.

At any rate, we do not know how evil Vader was or was not in the New Canon. We only have four movies to go off of. In two of those he was evil (IV and V). In another he was completely angst-ridden and could easily be seen as the "ends justify the means" kind of anti hero (like Wolverine, i.e. Morally Grey) (III). In RotJ he was decidedly less overtly evil than in other films and focused on overthrowing a much more evil Emperor (a quest that can easily be seen as noble~ish).

The only real conclusive piece of evidence we have for "Vader was evil" was the episode of the Clone Wars where Anakin saw his future and labeled it as such. However, how much of that can be taken seriously since the show was basing itself off of being consistent with the Legends canon is in dispute.

The real test for determining how the New Vader will feel will be the Lords of the Sith novel and the Rebels TV show. Which I am eager to devour because I am so excited for this bold new Star Wars canon.

To the other point, because all of the Old/Legends/EU canon is being thrown out, we do not know who the Stormtroopers were and how they were recruited. For all we know, they are all still Jango Clones, in which case they were bred for war and made to follow orders. Would anyone label a Droideka as evil? Of course not. They are a tool. Clone Troopers proved they were nothing more than biological droids when they executed Order 66 without hesitation. By the same token, we do not know who manned the Death Star. There could have easily been thousands of slaves/prisoners/forced laborers. Are they evil for being forced to work on the Death Star? They had no recourse in their servitude and no hope of escape, yet Luke slaughtered them all in the name of the greater good (and presumably this would also qualify for Lando and his attack squadron when they blew up the Death Star II).

As a side note, I wonder if technical manuals are considered "safe" or whether they have been, essentially, chucked out the window as well.

1. I actually am really sad to see the established EU stuff go. I get why it had to be done, but I liked the Solo kids, loved the New Jedi Order Series, and was really digging where the future of those characters was heading after Jacen Solo turned to the Dark Side. Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade, and the Solo kids are among my top hopes to see in some form moving forward.

2. The cast for VII looks alright, but I will hold off on getting too excited or worried until I learn more about the direction of the film.

3. I haven't ever had much interest in the Star Wars TV shows, same goes for Rebels.

4. I don't have a specific selection, but I have always kinda wanted to see Corelia on screen. I will say that I really hope Tatooine doesn't make anymore appearances. It's supposed to be a backwoods dust ball, but is treated like the hub of galactic destiny in the movies.

1. I too miss the old canon but, we will just have to adapt. At least they are pumping new stuff out very quickly to fill the void.

3. Rebels will be interesting if only to see how the Story Team really develops the brave new world.

4. Nostolgia! Tattooine will totally be in the new film. It may be a backwater to the galaxy but it is hugely important to Anakin, Obi-Wan, C3P-0, R2, Han, Jabba and more. It is the world from which the story spring boarded. My hope is that they stay away from it in other media and focus on canonizing worlds from the Legens/EU/Old canon that never made it into Film/TV. Corellia is a great example. Birthplace of Han Solo yet never seen.

[RobinFan4880]

Double Post

[pro]

In another he was completely angst-ridden and could easily be seen as the "ends justify the means" kind of anti hero

But the ends he was pursuing were entirely selfish so he is pretty much evil there too, just conflicted.
You don't really get to justify wanting to save your babies and your wife if you slaughter an entire kiddie class to make it happen. And go postal on -all- your collegues and friends. And try to strangle your wife when her traveling companion irritates you. And trying to kill your best friend/father figure.
At every turn he took the most selfish and wicked path just to avoid personal loss at the expense of thousands dying.
So yea anti-hero not so much. Just plain selfish and evil.
Return of the Jedi never really managed to convince me Anakin deserved his happy Force ghost ending.
He was a selfish petulant sadsack who betrayed everything he held dear just to end up losing everything he held dear because of his own actions.
Just because he was finally fed up with palpatine's lies and manipulation and had a moment of regret long enough to toss the wrinkly bastard into the bottomless pit never really impressed me enough that it somehow balanced out all the evil he had committed.

[Sacred Knight]

For me its pretty simple: Darth Vader is pure evil from the moment he's told Padme is dead until he meets Luke. After that Anakin slowly begins to try and resurface, but not until then. I disregard any story that tries to paint him in any sort of conflict between Episode III and the end of V.

[Vidocq]

But the ends he was pursuing were entirely selfish so he is pretty much evil there too, just conflicted.
You don't really get to justify wanting to save your babies and your wife if you slaughter an entire kiddie class to make it happen. And go postal on -all- your collegues and friends. And try to strangle your wife when her traveling companion irritates you. And trying to kill your best friend/father figure.
At every turn he took the most selfish and wicked path just to avoid personal loss at the expense of thousands dying.
So yea anti-hero not so much. Just plain selfish and evil.
Return of the Jedi never really managed to convince me Anakin deserved his happy Force ghost ending.
He was a selfish petulant sadsack who betrayed everything he held dear just to end up losing everything he held dear because of his own actions.
Just because he was finally fed up with palpatine's lies and manipulation and had a moment of regret long enough to toss the wrinkly bastard into the bottomless pit never really impressed me enough that it somehow balanced out all the evil he had committed.

The the whole ''T and G Canon only'' makes the Prequel era somehow worse. Anakin is baffingly inconsistent if you go from The Clone Wars to Episode Three.

However if you take the Gendy Tartakovsky microseries (also in TV in the same channel, not contradicting anything that came after (a few EU stuff that came before, though), using the same character designs and not taking place in the same year and still somehow not canon) the transition becomes somehow more bearable.

[Vidocq]

For me its pretty simple: Darth Vader is pure evil from the moment he's told Padme is dead until he meets Luke. After that Anakin slowly begins to try and resurface, but not until then. I disregard any story that tries to paint him in any sort of conflict between Episode III and the end of V.

''Open your eyes wide, younglings, as I'm sodomise this Jedi's corpse with the Dark Side and no lube''
-Actual Quote from Darth Vader pre Episode IV.



(Ok, not really, but it could've been with the character we had at the end of episode III)

[Vidocq]

[ExcelsiorPrime]

leaked Episode 7 footage.

[LASERlips]

Here are a few questions to get the discussion going: What are you looking most forward to in the new Star Wars era? What will you miss most about the old continuity? Which characters do you hope make it into the new film? What do you think of the cast for VII? What are your feelings about Rebels? Which planets and/or species do you hope take up a prominent role in coming productions?

-I am just looking forward to a fantastic new trilogy that hopefully breaks new ground in the franchise. I hope there is a passing-of-the-torch to our new heroes, as the old ones are all a bit old, and I really like legacy/torch-passing stories.

-I won't miss anything about the old continuity, because it hasn't gone anywhere. It's not like I can't just pick up an old book and read it if I want. If it's the fact that the EU doesn't count anymore that bothers people, well, is that so important if you enjoy the story? I'm a comic reader too, so I'm accustomed to saying farewell to continuities. Really, it's a non-issue.

-I really hope Lando makes it in. I loved his surprise cameo, voiced by Billy Dee Williams, in a recent movie.

-I think the cast will do fine, but I don't really know them at all. I suppose that's what I like best--they're unknowns.

-Don't care about the shows.

-I'd like to see Mon Calamari, or Dac, or whatever it's called nowadays. Give me all the Ackbars. All of them! Then no trap shall ensnare me.

[LASERlips]

To the other point, because all of the Old/Legends/EU canon is being thrown out, we do not know who the Stormtroopers were and how they were recruited. For all we know, they are all still Jango Clones, in which case they were bred for war and made to follow orders. Would anyone label a Droideka as evil? Of course not. They are a tool. Clone Troopers proved they were nothing more than biological droids when they executed Order 66 without hesitation. By the same token, we do not know who manned the Death Star. There could have easily been thousands of slaves/prisoners/forced laborers. Are they evil for being forced to work on the Death Star? They had no recourse in their servitude and no hope of escape, yet Luke slaughtered them all in the name of the greater good (and presumably this would also qualify for Lando and his attack squadron when they blew up the Death Star II).

I don't understand why you keep harping on about the people on the Death Star except to try to make Luke look more evil in order to somehow make Vader look less evil. That doesn't even make sense. Anyway, the Death Star was an enemy battlestation, a most dangerous and overwhelmingly threatening enemy battlestation. It had to go, or the war was lost. That's right, war. This was a war, it's called Star Wars, and if the Empire staffed their ships or their Death Stars with slaves, then that's on them. How can Luke worry about a few potential slaves or guys just following orders (keep in mind that we still prosecute old men who were 'just following orders' to this day) when there was the potential of hundreds more planets, trillions more people being vaporized at the Emperor's whim? The very notion is ridiculous. Luke was a hero, Vader was evil as they come. The guy slaughtered kids without hesitation, because he had a dream about his wife. And that is canon.

[ChrisIII]

George Lucas's explanation for the regular workers on the Death Star was that apart from the Imperial guys there were Geonosians (Who designed the original as a seperatist weapon according to AOTC). Sure it's never mentioned in the films, but it's on the commentary straight from George so I suppose it kind of counts.

Not quite as relevant but there's an interesting deleted scene from JEDI on the blu-ray special features where Palpatine wants to destroy the Endor moon, but the commander (Moff Jerjorodd) hesitates and questions the Emperor because of all the Imperial troops on the surface.

[PwrdOn]

If you just stick with the original trilogy, there was certainly the possibility that Vader was a good man who had simply been corrupted by the Emperor and manages to achieve a measure of redemption at the end of the story. However, the prequels completely obliterate that interpretation since Anakin is never anything more than a selfish, arrogant prick the whole way through whose extreme obsession with Padme does him absolutely no favors. Despite the extreme lengths he goes to win her favor, he never seems to actually show any genuine care or affection toward her and comes off as simply wanting to possess her, and so seems to be pretty firmly entrenched on the dark side from the very beginning.

[RobinFan4880]

George Lucas's explanation for the regular workers on the Death Star was that apart from the Imperial guys there were Geonosians (Who designed the original as a seperatist weapon according to AOTC). Sure it's never mentioned in the films, but it's on the commentary straight from George so I suppose it kind of counts.

Not quite as relevant but there's an interesting deleted scene from JEDI on the blu-ray special features where Palpatine wants to destroy the Endor moon, but the commander (Moff Jerjorodd) hesitates and questions the Emperor because of all the Imperial troops on the surface.

Something that disturbed me in the Clone Wars TV Show was how the Jedi went to Geonosis and started slaughtering "bugs", as if they were not sentient creatures.

-I'd like to see Mon Calamari, or Dac, or whatever it's called nowadays. Give me all the Ackbars. All of them! Then no trap shall ensnare me.

I doubt they are going to alter world names and species. Ackbar appeared in the Clone Wars TV show, so I am sure they are not going to hesitate to put him in a movie. It will be nice seeing him aboard some giant Mon-Cal Cruiser, imperiously overseeing his fleet.

I don't understand why you keep harping on about the people on the Death Star except to try to make Luke look more evil in order to somehow make Vader look less evil. That doesn't even make sense. Anyway, the Death Star was an enemy battlestation, a most dangerous and overwhelmingly threatening enemy battlestation. It had to go, or the war was lost. That's right, war. This was a war, it's called Star Wars, and if the Empire staffed their ships or their Death Stars with slaves, then that's on them. How can Luke worry about a few potential slaves or guys just following orders (keep in mind that we still prosecute old men who were 'just following orders' to this day) when there was the potential of hundreds more planets, trillions more people being vaporized at the Emperor's whim? The very notion is ridiculous. Luke was a hero, Vader was evil as they come. The guy slaughtered kids without hesitation, because he had a dream about his wife. And that is canon.

I was more thinking about how the elimination of the Legends Canon removes much of the context from the events in the movies.

Anakin saw a vision in the Force, of the same variety that led Luke to go save Han and Leia. Anakin only went coo-coo for coco puffs because the king of manipulation wound Anakin around his finger, much the same way he did with the galaxy as a whole. Once you start down a dark path, it is difficult to forge a new one... Unless someone is there to redeem you (which took nearly 25 years for Anakin).

Vader is obviously evil, I just question how deep dark evil he was in the new and old canon. Regardless of blame, there is a difference between Hitler's culpability and an SS Officer's. One is super evil, the other merely evil. Both need to be punished, and both should be executed, but we all know who the true mastermind villain is (and that is not Vader).

Anyways, I am just thinking out loud mostly. Like I said, it is interesting to view past events without the context of the Legends Canon.

If you just stick with the original trilogy, there was certainly the possibility that Vader was a good man who had simply been corrupted by the Emperor and manages to achieve a measure of redemption at the end of the story. However, the prequels completely obliterate that interpretation since Anakin is never anything more than a selfish, arrogant prick the whole way through whose extreme obsession with Padme does him absolutely no favors. Despite the extreme lengths he goes to win her favor, he never seems to actually show any genuine care or affection toward her and comes off as simply wanting to possess her, and so seems to be pretty firmly entrenched on the dark side from the very beginning.

I blame bad writing! The Anakin in the Clone Wars was far more sympathetic and loving, especially when it came to Padme.

[LASERlips]

I was more thinking about how the elimination of the Legends Canon removes much of the context from the events in the movies.

Anakin saw a vision in the Force, of the same variety that led Luke to go save Han and Leia. Anakin only went coo-coo for coco puffs because the king of manipulation wound Anakin around his finger, much the same way he did with the galaxy as a whole. Once you start down a dark path, it is difficult to forge a new one... Unless someone is there to redeem you (which took nearly 25 years for Anakin).

Vader is obviously evil, I just question how deep dark evil he was in the new and old canon. Regardless of blame, there is a difference between Hitler's culpability and an SS Officer's. One is super evil, the other merely evil. Both need to be punished, and both should be executed, but we all know who the true mastermind villain is (and that is not Vader).

Anyways, I am just thinking out loud mostly. Like I said, it is interesting to view past events without the context of the Legends Canon.

This is an issue, but not in the way you might think. The saga is movies first. They should stand alone. If extra EU content is required to get the point across, then they are failures as films. You shouldn't have to rely on Legends canon to understand what is going on in the films. No one should.

I blame bad writing! The Anakin in the Clone Wars was far more sympathetic and loving, especially when it came to Padme.

Hear, hear!

[RobinFan4880]

This is an issue, but not in the way you might think. The saga is movies first. They should stand alone. If extra EU content is required to get the point across, then they are failures as films. You shouldn't have to rely on Legends canon to understand what is going on in the films. No one should.

100% agree with you there.