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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I respect that. But I'm just looking at it from a perspective of what went down due to unnatural circumstances, as opposed to what would have happened in normal circumstances. He wouldn't have gotten hit if Superman wasn't sick. But Superman is sick and he did get hit. And I can't be bothered to feel anything negative about it just for the fact of who he is and what he represents.

    And holy crap is this site moving at a snail's pace for anyone else?

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidstandout View Post
    clearly superman is not in his right mind, complaining about him punching Luther seems pointless here.
    It's celebrating the idea that Superman should do this to Lex while in his right mind that is being complained about, not him doing it to Lex if he's not himself.

    and i for one am happy lana was being supportive for her fellow women instead of tearing her down. to actually want the later just because she is supporting a pairing you don't like shows you are more concerned with shipping then female empowerment.
    Honestly, I don't have a problem with Lana's or Lois's positive attitude in theory, and I certainly prefer it to them being unfairly nasty toward Diana for selfish reasons like jealousy. I will say, though, that it's getting tiresome and ultimately could be a problem for Wonder Woman's appeal if writers keep writing other characters reacting to her in this way. By that I mean that we just got an issue of SM/WW where the club owner puts her on a pedestal in the context of how that benefits Clark, and now we basically have our first reactions from Lois and Lana to Wonder Woman where, very anti-Bechdel test like, the writer can't help himself not only having them discuss Diana as awesome in the context of her being Superman's girlfiriend, but also can't stop himself from having Lois and Lana put Diana on a pedestal as others have before them. The more this happens, the more it portrays Diana less as a person who earns praise from people who know her more personally as more than just a celebrity; she becomes a trophy. The praise isn't there to aggrandize Diana, in other words, but to make Superman look better for getting the prize object that everyone worships. This is dangerous because, as with the pedestalization of Lana on Smallville, or in the real world case of Jennifer Lawrence, fans grow tired of it.
    Last edited by misslane; 05-12-2014 at 05:15 PM.

  3. #48
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    It's celebrating the idea that Superman should do this to Lex while in his right mind that is being complained about, not him doing it to Lex if he's not himself.



    Honestly, I don't have a problem with Lana's or Lois's positive attitude in theory, and I certainly prefer it to them being unfairly nasty toward Diana for selfish reasons like jealousy. I will say, though, that it's getting tiresome and ultimately could be a problem for Wonder Woman's appeal if writers keep writing other characters reacting to her in this way. By that I mean that we just got an issue of SM/WW where the club owner puts her on a pedestal in the context of how that benefits Clark, and now we basically have our first reactions from Lois and Lana to Wonder Woman where, very anti-Bechdel test like, the writer can't help himself not only having them discuss Diana as awesome in the context of her being Superman's girlfiriend, but also can't stop himself from having Lois and Lana put Diana on a pedestal as others have before them. The more this happens, the more it portrays Diana less as a person who earns praise from people who know her more personally as more than just a celebrity; she becomes a trophy. The praise isn't there to aggrandize Diana, in other words, but to make Superman look better for getting the prize object that everyone worships. This is dangerous because, as with the pedestalization of Lana on Smallville, or in the real world of Jennifer Lawrence, fans grow tired of it.
    Eh, I think it's fine as a celebrity-like or a "modern day god" sort of thing for "outsiders" (Lana and Lois don't know her at all). To me it's Brad and Angelina, Aphrodite and Apollo (did go out whatever), and Will and Kate. These people are celebrities. So coming at it from this skin deep angle is alright with me when it comes from people they don't know. Lana and Lois only know Wonder Woman from the news reports and papers. She's amazing to them because of the amazing stuff she does, her looks, and her impact on the world like a celeb or a god made real.

    I think that's part of the draw of Superheroes in a shared world. I agree though it will get to be a bit much if it's done all the time. It would need to be balanced out more (in there book I guess). I think Pak did well here as he wasn't just speaking on Wonder Woman alone but Clark's new "Super friends" as a whole. It was an outside looking in moment. Her finally seeing that the kid who never got asked to dance by anyone but her is now "flying with the eagles". It was a Lana moment more than a Wonder Woman or Superman/Wonder Woman moment I think.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 05-12-2014 at 05:28 PM.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penguin Truth View Post
    Just consider it an Asshole Tax, Lex.
    Couldn't help but LOL. It's Lex, after all. He gets under Supes' skin. I thought it was good that the movie All-Star Superman changed the ending so that Superman doesn't KO Lex with a right cross, but it's not as though the book was wrong to have that original scene, either.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    It's celebrating the idea that Superman should do this to Lex while in his right mind that is being complained about, not him doing it to Lex if he's not himself.



    Honestly, I don't have a problem with Lana's or Lois's positive attitude in theory, and I certainly prefer it to them being unfairly nasty toward Diana for selfish reasons like jealousy. I will say, though, that it's getting tiresome and ultimately could be a problem for Wonder Woman's appeal if writers keep writing other characters reacting to her in this way. By that I mean that we just got an issue of SM/WW where the club owner puts her on a pedestal in the context of how that benefits Clark, and now we basically have our first reactions from Lois and Lana to Wonder Woman where, very anti-Bechdel test like, the writer can't help himself not only having them discuss Diana as awesome in the context of her being Superman's girlfiriend, but also can't stop himself from having Lois and Lana put Diana on a pedestal as others have before them. The more this happens, the more it portrays Diana less as a person who earns praise from people who know her more personally as more than just a celebrity; she becomes a trophy. The praise isn't there to aggrandize Diana, in other words, but to make Superman look better for getting the prize object that everyone worships. This is dangerous because, as with the pedestalization of Lana on Smallville, or in the real world of Jennifer Lawrence, fans grow tired of it.
    i clearly saw you say your tired of seeing superman acting ooc due to mental defects.

    well these 'pedestal' moments have a. been few in number up until recently due to the entire world just finding out about sm/ww. b. been exactly the type of newworthy story lois would comment about so it would be weird for the top reporter in dc to not speak on the issue that has her entire field raving. c are a refreshing break from hearing batman of all people rant about the relationship, lex luther going all tinfoil hatty about it and writers in general pretending it doesn't exist in their solo books.(looking at you azz & snyder)

  6. #51
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Couldn't help but LOL. It's Lex, after all. He gets under Supes' skin. I thought it was good that the movie All-Star Superman changed the ending so that Superman doesn't KO Lex with a right cross, but it's not as though the book was wrong to have that original scene, either.
    I liked the comic book ending better. Morrison put it something like "and then Superman beats Lex in classic comic book fashion with a punch to the face". It was there cuz that's part of the language of superhero comics I think.

    I respect the movies take though

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Eh, I think it's fine as a celebrity-like or a "modern day god" sort of thing for "outsiders" (Lana and Lois don't know her at all). To me it's Brad and Angelina, Aphrodite and Apollo (did go out whatever), and Will and Kate. These people are celebrities. So coming at it from this skin deep angle is alright with me when it comes from people they don't know. Lana and Lois only know Wonder Woman from the news reports and papers. She's amazing to them because of the amazing stuff she does, her looks, and her impact on the world like a celeb or a god made real.
    I suppose my question is why does this story need this? Why must the superheroes constantly be depicted as celebrities? If one needs that kind of statement for whatever ridiculous reason, have it be a stranger or a civilian. As I said earlier, too, it's also an issue of overdoing it. When Diana showed up at Lois's housewarming party, staring and praising ensued. When Diana shows up at the club to dance, more praise of her goddess like perfection occurred. Now this. There's something to be said about showing more than telling, and telling readers this so much by putting it into the mouths of bystander characters reads more like the author and the editors trying to convince people to perceive Diana a certain way. It immediately reduces her to a celebrity and to a trophy for Superman. So while it might be natural for Lois and Lana to think of Wonder Woman that way, I question the motivation and necessity of including this type of commentary based on a consideration of what the author's priorities and goals might have been. Because what would the scene lose if Lana and Lois had said something else? What is it accomplishing?

    I think that's part of the draw of Superheroes in a shared world. I agree though it will get to be a bit much if it's done all the time.
    Right? I mean, everything in moderation. I guess it's just a little off putting to see the amazing Lana who Pak gave us -- the one who's heroic, smart, and adventurous -- and Lois who is equally brilliant, compassionate, and brave doing what looks like their best to investigate and handle the situation only to have them look up at all of the heroes including the only one who is a woman like them, and react in a way that suggests they're in the presence of something greater than themselves. I don't know, while I thought it was cool for Lana to be so proud and happy for Superman to have some awesome pals, I strangely felt sad for her having to look at them taking her friend away and describing them as eagles when I think she's just as good as they are; and I don't know how to feel about her believing Clark was in a whole other world now and not her good old Clark anymore. I liked that it was said with a mixture of pride and nostalgia, so it wasn't too melancholy, but it had an odd effect of placing distance between Lana (and Lois) and Superman -- a sort of then and now, us and them chasm -- which I'd rather there be less emphasis on, as Lana's and Lois's own cleverness, kindness, and badassery deserve to be acknowledged and praised too. In fact, Wonder Woman is so gracious, and her mission seems so rooted in empowering and believing in women like the ones at Hessia's school to be wonderful themselves, that it would be a nice touch if we see Diana making sure that other women know that she finds them impressive too.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidstandout View Post
    i clearly saw you say your tired of seeing superman acting ooc due to mental defects.
    Right, so what you said here ("clearly superman is not in his right mind, complaining about him punching Luther seems pointless here") is complaining about something different. Your complaint was that it was "pointless" for people to complain about Superman punching Luthor because Superman's obviously not himself. My saying that I'm tired of seeing Superman act out of character communicates that I'm aware of the fact that he isn't in his right mind, and that it's the fact that he's out of character and possessed by a villain again which troubles me in addition to some people actually preferring Superman in his right mind to punch annoying pests like Lex more often because such violence is arousing and satisfying to them.

    well these 'pedestal' moments have a. been few in number up until recently due to the entire world just finding out about sm/ww. b. been exactly the type of newworthy story lois would comment about so it would be weird for the top reporter in dc to not speak on the issue that has her entire field raving. c are a refreshing break from hearing batman of all people rant about the relationship, lex luther going all tinfoil hatty about it and writers in general pretending it doesn't exist in their solo books.(looking at you azz & snyder)
    But I'm not talking about Lois noting that Wonder Woman is Superman's girlfriend, I'm noting that both Lois and Lana are written to praise Wonder Woman. I think exchanging Batman's and others' rants or some books' dismissal of the relationship for excessive pedestalization doesn't make things better. It just creates a new element in these stories which feels forced in by editorial or creators for the sole purpose of setting superheroes, but especially Superman and Wonder Woman, apart and above humanity. It's strange because the effect of such a moment, at least for me, is to admire and sympathize with Lana and Lois more and to like Wonder Woman less. For instance, I started liking Arrow's Felicity Smoak, but the more the show panders to her character and the Oliver/Felicity contingent, the less appealing she became because the strategy on the part of the creators' was too transparent. I mean, this isn't a first for Pak. In a previous issue he had Superman think to himself that it was odd he wanted to impress Lana when he was dating the most "amazing" woman, Wonder Woman. It's as if one can't read any description of Wonder Woman without it not including these qualifiers: the most powerful, the most amazing, the most impressive. None of which is to say that she isn't powerful, amazing, or impressive. Rather, it can start sounding like court etiquette where people are announced as Her Excellency or Majesty.

    It's a nitpick, I know, but I honestly don't see the value of incorporating it into so much of the writing lately. It makes me feel as if these creators spend so much time giving interviews or doing panels talking up their work that they've overdosed on spin and superlatives. It ultimately has a cheapening effect, in my view, and would be better off toning it down and letting one's admiration occur naturally rather than having it dictated.

  9. #54
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I just hope no one else on the League starts to buy into Luthor's crap. At the very least not Diana or Bruce. But again this is something rather out of the Superman team's hands as Johns controls this particular storyline.

  10. #55
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I suppose my question is why does this story need this? Why must the superheroes constantly be depicted as celebrities? If one needs that kind of statement for whatever ridiculous reason, have it be a stranger or a civilian.



    Right? I mean, everything in moderation. I guess it's just a little off putting to see the amazing Lana who Pak gave us -- the one who's heroic, smart, and adventurous -- and Lois who is equally brilliant, compassionate, and brave doing what looks like their best to investigate and handle the situation only to have them look up at all of the heroes including the only one who is a woman like them, and react in a way that suggests they're in the presence of something greater than themselves. I don't know, while I thought it was cool for Lana to be so proud and happy for Superman to have some awesome pals, I strangely felt sad for her having to look at them taking her friend away and describing them as eagles when I think she's just as good as they are; and I don't know how to feel about her believing Clark was in a whole other world now and not her good old Clark anymore. I liked that it was said with a mixture of pride and nostalgia, so it wasn't too melancholy, but it had an odd effect of placing distance between Lana (and Lois) and Superman -- a sort of then and now, us and them chasm -- which I'd rather there be less emphasis on, as Lana's and Lois's own cleverness, kindness, and badassery deserve to be acknowledged and praised too. In fact, Wonder Woman is so gracious, and her mission seems so rooted in empowering and believing in women like the ones at Hessia's school to be wonderful themselves, that it would be a nice touch if we see Diana making sure that other women know that she finds them impressive too.
    I'll just speak on the celeb thing cuz the trophy thing get obnoxious to me too and I can see where you're coming from. The celeb thing is just how this world works and probably (IMO) the way that makes sense for it to function. I mean doctors, lawyers, police, fire fighters, and journalist are all fantastic and noble people who should be looked on with admiration and pride, but what if one day someone came along who could pretty much do all their jobs 10X better (that's the perception anyway), save the world, and look like movie stars....and they fly too. They are ultra celebs at this point. These people could dictate the shape of the world. It's the human nature to look at something greater than ourselves be it concepts like love or idols. This is Greek gods meets Hollywood and humanitarians. It's hard not to look at them as better in the shallow sense of it all.

    Lana still has pride in herself. She's had to see Clark on the news for about 5 years now and she still saw herself as doing her part just like Superman. This particular incident was more of a realization for her prom date being more than that now. It's a nice wrinkle because how does she approach things now with Clark with this whole modern day god thing sinking in for her? You could already see the slight change in her in the first Action arc.

    Pak played it perfectly with that mix of pride and sadness to it. Getting back to the celeb thing though, in regards to this story (more so this world) it's actually quite needed. It's going to be a public perception story at some point, right? You gotta start it with the current perception of things. Lana is our fresh eyes on Pak's new Superman so her perception is key and more importantly is not too far off from the agave joe's.

    Remember in Pak's first arc where Lana is shown to almost take Ghost Solders side on the whole killing Baka? Superman descends on them after the "deed is done" and she "only see Superman" and not Clark. She's in a limbo state because she grew up with him but he's changed yet stayed the same so much so that she's meeting him for the first time at times. So the celeb/godly angle is not too far off or out of place here. It's also not too bad to be used by Lana.

    If all this isn't for you then that's fine. Some of the other Superman books/stories are liked by others but not for me.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 05-12-2014 at 06:51 PM.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'll just speak on the celeb thing cuz the trophy thing get obnoxious to me too and I can see where you're coming from. The celeb thing is just how this world works and probably (IMO) the way that makes sense for it to function. I mean doctors, lawyers, police, fire fighters, and journalist are all fantastic and noble people who should be looked on with admiration and pride, but what if one day someone came along who could pretty much do all their jobs 10X better (that's the perception anyway), save the world, and look like movie stars....and they fly too. They are ultra celebs at this point. These people could dictate the shape of the world. It's the human nature to look at something greater than ourselves be it concepts like love or idols. This Greek gods meets Hollywood and humanitarians. It's hard not to look at them as better in the shallow sense of it all.
    I understand all of that. It makes sense, as I have celebrities from actors to politicians that I am in awe of. I think, now that I look at it more, that it's not so much that Lois and Lana are treating Wonder Woman like a celebrity or Superman and Wonder Woman like a celebrity couple, but more that it makes little sense. They are celebrities, so it's odd for Lois to think she has to inform Lana that she's looking at Wonder Woman or that Lana doesn't even know Clark's dating her despite it being all over the news and despite having spent a lot of time with him very recently. As a result, the actual dialogue seems overly contrived in order to achieve the overall purpose of casting Lois and Lana as in awe of Wonder Woman, specifically in the context of her being Superman's girlfriend. That creates that trophy effect I discussed before.

    Remember in Pak's first arc where Lana is shown to almost take Ghost Solders side on the whole killing Baka? Superman descends on them after the "deed is done" and she "only see Superman" and not Clark. She's in a limbo state because she grew up with him but he's changed yet stayed the same so much so that she's meeting him for the first time at times. So the celeb/godly angle is not too far off or out of place here. It's also not too bad to be used by Lana.
    That would have made sense if this was Lana's first adventure with Superman, but it wasn't. I'd prefer to see Lana illustrate her intimacy with Superman as a childhood friend who just spent time with him, by being capable of seeing him and his fellow superheroes in the same light as Clark from Smallville. In other words, instead of seeing them all as eagles in another world above and beyond her, to see someone like Wonder Woman as someone not that unlike her Clark. You know, someone who was a kid once and who has flaws and insecurities like anyone else. I doubt Clark would ever believe or give off the vibe that he was above Lana in any way, and it's refreshing when humans can see the humanity in the heroes rather than seeing them as gods who soar above them who get to be labeled "super" friends while people like Lois and Lana are only friends. Lana should never have to come to terms with her Clark being a modern day god. Why? Because deep down he isn't a different person just because he's famous. He needs people in his life whose view of him and dynamic with him is rooted and sustained by something outside of his superhero life or godlike status. With Lana, it's the boy from Smallville. With Lois, it's the reporter. Thus, I would have preferred Pak highlight Lana's unique perspective by having her reaction be less stars in her eyes and more down to earth.
    Last edited by misslane; 05-12-2014 at 06:59 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Right, so what you said here ("clearly superman is not in his right mind, complaining about him punching Luther seems pointless here") is complaining about something different. Your complaint was that it was "pointless" for people to complain about Superman punching Luthor because Superman's obviously not himself. My saying that I'm tired of seeing Superman act out of character communicates that I'm aware of the fact that he isn't in his right mind, and that it's the fact that he's out of character and possessed by a villain again which troubles me in addition to some people actually preferring Superman in his right mind to punch annoying pests like Lex more often because such violence is arousing and satisfying to them.



    But I'm not talking about Lois noting that Wonder Woman is Superman's girlfriend, I'm noting that both Lois and Lana are written to praise Wonder Woman. I think exchanging Batman's and others' rants or some books' dismissal of the relationship for excessive pedestalization doesn't make things better. It just creates a new element in these stories which feels forced in by editorial or creators for the sole purpose of setting superheroes, but especially Superman and Wonder Woman, apart and above humanity. It's strange because the effect of such a moment, at least for me, is to admire and sympathize with Lana and Lois more and to like Wonder Woman less. For instance, I started liking Arrow's Felicity Smoak, but the more the show panders to her character and the Oliver/Felicity contingent, the less appealing she became because the strategy on the part of the creators' was too transparent. I mean, this isn't a first for Pak. In a previous issue he had Superman think to himself that it was odd he wanted to impress Lana when he was dating the most "amazing" woman, Wonder Woman. It's as if one can't read any description of Wonder Woman without it not including these qualifiers: the most powerful, the most amazing, the most impressive. None of which is to say that she isn't powerful, amazing, or impressive. Rather, it can start sounding like court etiquette where people are announced as Her Excellency or Majesty.

    It's a nitpick, I know, but I honestly don't see the value of incorporating it into so much of the writing lately. It makes me feel as if these creators spend so much time giving interviews or doing panels talking up their work that they've overdosed on spin and superlatives. It ultimately has a cheapening effect, in my view, and would be better off toning it down and letting one's admiration occur naturally rather than having it dictated.
    you being aware about it or not doesn't change the fact that your complaining about the action being present period. even though their is a perfectly valid reason why supes is acting ooc, you choose to ignore that out of some desire to avoid seeing anything that classic clark wouldn't do. it is ok if you don't want to see this plot but don't act like it has no justification when clearly it does.

    you say so like it's been all over the dcu. i can tell you the exact amount of times these so called pedestal moments have happened.
    1 the club scene in smww 7
    2 supes and guy gardener in red lanterns
    3 the entirety of the news outbreak in smww 4
    that's it. i'd hardly equate these examples of "pedestalization" to forced editorial mandate across the dcu, especially it the relationship has only just now is starting to get acknowledged across the most of their solo books. i get the whole less is more bit when it comes to praise, but how much praise have these two really got?

    nitpicking aside, i too wish to see ww having some nice interaction with lois and lana.

  13. #58
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I understand all of that. It makes sense, as I have celebrities from actors to politicians that I am in awe of. I think, now that I look at it more, that it's not so much that Lois and Lana are treating Wonder Woman like a celebrity or Superman and Wonder Woman like a celebrity couple, but more that it makes little sense. They are celebrities, so it's odd for Lois to think she has to inform Lana that she's looking at Wonder Woman or that Lana doesn't even know Clark's dating her despite it being all over the news and despite having spent a lot of time with him very recently. As a result, the actual dialogue seems overly contrived in order to achieve the overall purpose of casting Lois and Lana as in awe of Wonder Woman, specifically in the context of her being Superman's girlfriend. That creates that trophy effect I discussed before.
    It was probably done for comedic effect (I think it did well with that) given Lana's response and face. Kinda like a "their dating, doncha know". Maybe she thinks it was the first time she's even seen Wonder Woman in person and the whole "there dating" is just adding to conversation. Like if you see a celeb with another one you could say "oh you know they used to date" or "their dating". Even though the people in question have their lives advertised by TMZ and the like day in and day out we still some how find the time to say "oh their dating". Lastly it was just just a pick of a kiss (when they weren't even dating in fact) and then speculations ran wild. It's all just gossip really. Lois is just commenting on what she's heard (doesn't remember the apartment thing right?).

    Most of all it was comedic to play with the Lana/Clark joke relationship. Also if you see Brad Pit the first thing you're gonna say is "oh my gosh it's Brad Pit". You'll say that for any celeb even if they are the most famous person on earth. It's like a reflex or something honestly.



    That would have made sense if this was Lana's first adventure with Superman, but it wasn't. I'd prefer to see Lana illustrate her intimacy with Superman as a childhood friend who just spent time with him, by being capable of seeing him and his fellow superheroes in the same light as Clark from Smallville. In other words, instead of seeing them all as eagles in another world above and beyond her, to see someone like Wonder Woman as someone not that unlike her Clark. You know, someone who was a kid once and who has flaws and insecurities like anyone else. I doubt Clark would ever believe or give off the vibe that he was above Lana in any way, and it's refreshing when humans can see the humanity in the heroes rather than seeing them as gods who soar above them who get to be labeled "super" friends while people like Lois and Lana are only friends. Lana should never have to come to terms with her Clark being a modern day god. Why? Because deep down he isn't a different person just because he's famous. He needs people in his life whose view of him and dynamic with him is rooted and sustained by something outside of his superhero life or godlike status. With Lana, it's the boy from Smallville. With Lois, it's the reporter. Thus, I would have preferred Pak highlight Lana's unique perspective by having her reaction be less stars in her eyes and more down to earth.
    Well actually it pretty much was their first adventure together as the next one is pretty much just a continuation that was only a day later. That's fine if you think that's how it should go. But for the angle this story is playing it wouldn't mesh as well. Superman doesn't think himself above anyone but what do the people think of him is where it comes from. That feeling that even when a celeb is saying "oh I'm down to earth" or whatever a part of you still goes like "nah their probably not" but you don't really know for sure. Lana's not like this but she's sort of still re meeting this guy again and it's a little bit of a shift since the last time she saw him. Last time he was worried about both of them leaving home and things changing, but now he fights and befriends monsters like it's Sunday morning to him. Lana also can't just go around assuming that everyone is just as "normal" as Clark. Manhunter would prove her wrong on the spot, in the old universe Wonder Woman was made from clay. The bottom line is she can only speak for Clark and given how she reacted to Clark "putting on his Superman face" it makes sense for her to just see them as larger than life figures till shown otherwise. Later in the first arc she's shown wrestling back and forth with who Clark was and who he'd become and if they were the same guy. Some times he was almost unrecognizable to her actually.

    What's likely gonna happen as far as their story together goes is her finding out the new Clark along with the old one (because he has changed) and humanizing him again to her. It's already started with the first arc but it would be ridiculous to think that it's an over night thing.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 05-12-2014 at 07:54 PM.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidstandout View Post
    you being aware about it or not doesn't change the fact that your complaining about the action being present period
    But your original point was that it bothered you that people were complaining about something without acknowledging or considering that Superman wasn't in his right mind. If this is just about my dislike of yet another story where Superman is possessed so he can do evil things, then I don't think that opinion of mine deserves to be labeled "pointless" as you did in your post. You are free to disagree, and to be okay or pleased with another such storyline, but please don't make the mistake of suggesting I wasn't acknowledging Superman wasn't in his right mind or of telling me that my opinion is pointless.

    even though their is a perfectly valid reason why supes is acting ooc, you choose to ignore that out of some desire to avoid seeing anything that classic clark wouldn't do. it is ok if you don't want to see this plot but don't act like it has no justification when clearly it does.
    What? I never argued there was no justification for it. Think of it this way: Superman isn't acting out of character for no reason. These writers planned an event and wrote a story that would allow for him to act out of character in ways that allow him to be evil just like they did in Forever Evil (as another Superman i.e. Ultraman) and just as they did with Brutaal in Earth 2 and Superman in Injustice. So when I complain about seeing this plot again, I'm complaining about Superman not having an in-story justification for his behavior but that the behavior and the justification exist in the first place. None of my comments or my thought process suggest that I am ignoring that Superman isn't in his right mind. In fact, what I'm saying is that I don't appreciate a storyline being created where Superman isn't in his right mind so he can and must do things that normally Superman wouldn't be able to get away with. I hate it even more because as these types of stories increase in prevalence, there's seems to be a greater frequency of people craving, preferring, and cheering on the behaviors of evil Superman incarnations.

    you say so like it's been all over the dcu. i can tell you the exact amount of times these so called pedestal moments have happened.
    1 the club scene in smww 7
    2 supes and guy gardener in red lanterns
    3 the entirety of the news outbreak in smww 4
    that's it. i'd hardly equate these examples of "pedestalization" to forced editorial mandate across the dcu, especially it the relationship has only just now is starting to get acknowledged across the most of their solo books. i get the whole less is more bit when it comes to praise, but how much praise have these two really got?
    Oh no, there's way more. Everyone ogling Diana when she went to Lois and Jonathan's housewarming party, for one. For two, Superman thinking to himself that he felt odd impressing Lana when he's dating the most amazing woman on the planet in a recent issue of Action Comics. I believe Supergirl and Superboy have made comments too, like Supergirl in Pak's Batman/Superman issue with Mongul. It's basically become some sort of courtly duty for anyone who meets Diana to comment on her wonderfulness. It's typically done within a storyline or scene that involves Clark as well, so that it produces the effect of praise for Wonder Woman really being a pat on the back to Superman for a job well done in winning the prized trophy of the Justice League. The recent Justice League: War movie certainly wanted to paint Superman as the only one good enough for Princess Diana whom everyone had to drool over like fools. The abundance of moments like this create a sense of Diana as an object or prize. It dehumanizes her in a way because the praise rarely comes from people who know her personally, and it's more the reaction of people to her beauty, strength, or status -- superficial things -- instead of her heart. I miss the world wanting to talk about Wonder Woman because she's a champion of peace and an inspiration instead of how cool and gossip worthy her celebrity romance is. Even though I don't like the term Mary Sue much anymore because I find it too reductive, I do think the more telling instead of showing we get with characters and the world engaging with Wonder Woman as a celebrity or one half of a power couple, the more she might suffer the pitfalls of Mary Sue treatment.

    nitpicking aside, i too wish to see ww having some nice interaction with lois and lana.
    Yes, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    But your original point was that it bothered you that people were complaining about something without acknowledging or considering that Superman wasn't in his right mind. If this is just about my dislike of yet another story where Superman is possessed so he can do evil things, then I don't think that opinion of mine deserves to be labeled "pointless" as you did in your post. You are free to disagree, and to be okay or pleased with another such storyline, but please don't make the mistake of suggesting I wasn't acknowledging Superman wasn't in his right mind or of telling me that my opinion is pointless.



    What? I never argued there was no justification for it. Think of it this way: Superman isn't acting out of character for no reason. These writers planned an event and wrote a story that would allow for him to act out of character in ways that allow him to be evil just like they did in Forever Evil (as another Superman i.e. Ultraman) and just as they did with Brutaal in Earth 2 and Superman in Injustice. So when I complain about seeing this plot again, I'm complaining about Superman not having an in-story justification for his behavior but that the behavior and the justification exist in the first place. None of my comments or my thought process suggest that I am ignoring that Superman isn't in his right mind. In fact, what I'm saying is that I don't appreciate a storyline being created where Superman isn't in his right mind so he can and must do things that normally Superman wouldn't be able to get away with. I hate it even more because as these types of stories increase in prevalence, there's seems to be a greater frequency of people craving, preferring, and cheering on the behaviors of evil Superman incarnations.



    Oh no, there's way more. Everyone ogling Diana when she went to Lois and Jonathan's housewarming party, for one. For two, Superman thinking to himself that he felt odd impressing Lana when he's dating the most amazing woman on the planet in a recent issue of Action Comics. I believe Supergirl and Superboy have made comments too, like Supergirl in Pak's Batman/Superman issue with Mongul. It's basically become some sort of courtly duty for anyone who meets Diana to comment on her wonderfulness. It's typically done within a storyline or scene that involves Clark as well, so that it produces the effect of praise for Wonder Woman really being a pat on the back to Superman for a job well done in winning the prized trophy of the Justice League. The recent Justice League: War movie certainly wanted to paint Superman as the only one good enough for Princess Diana whom everyone had to drool over like fools. The abundance of moments like this create a sense of Diana as an object or prize. It dehumanizes her in a way because the praise rarely comes from people who know her personally, and it's more the reaction of people to her beauty, strength, or status -- superficial things -- instead of her heart. I miss the world wanting to talk about Wonder Woman because she's a champion of peace and an inspiration instead of how cool and gossip worthy her celebrity romance is. Even though I don't like the term Mary Sue much anymore because I find it too reductive, I do think the more telling instead of showing we get with characters and the world engaging with Wonder Woman as a celebrity or one half of a power couple, the more she might suffer the pitfalls of Mary Sue treatment.



    Yes, please.
    i never said it bothered me lol, just that for the sake of a critic it is pointless. as for your lack of interest in seeing the storyline, when you emphasize how much you dislike seeing the storyline despite knowing the state of clarks mind, it just seems like crying over spilled milk. by all means, feel free to do so but don't get mad at me for laughing at it.

    so your complaining about the plot existing in the first place? i guess you must really hate jean grey then lol. i can understand not liking a certain plot but the point i'm stressing is that you still have to acknowledge that it makes sense, and for that purpose alone it has a right to exist.

    okay, so a total of seven so called pedestal moments are overkill? see that's funny because during and after the whole trinity war storyline, batman, lex luthor, booster gold, steve trevor, apollo, strife, zod and faora have expressed critiques against them. so this overload of positive sentiment for smww is highly exaggerated. best example, the consensus amongst people during the news outbreak in smww4/5 was mixed. i just don't see the how fairly mixed reception equates to mary sueing here.

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