Action Comics #31 Preview

[kidstandout]

misslane, your post quoting me seemed more addressed to others than me, and I agree with most of what you said. I won't bother responding to that post specifically.

I find the Mary Sue talk in this thread pretty humorous, but I philosophically oppose the notion of the Mary Sue.

kidstandout, the text you bolded is not the usual definition of a Mary Sue. It's a description of the prototype Mary Sue from fan fiction. The definition varies, but the most broad definition of a Mary Sue is an idealized character, usually a form of wish-fulfillment and/or a self-insertion. (Obviously, this definition has problems.) The description provided by misslane, also, has problems. If a character did not possess any qualities or did not perform any actions to warrant the attention they receive, then I would understand labeling them as a Mary Sue. But I would say that Superman and Wonder Woman, individually and especially as a couple, most definitely have traits to justify the amount of attention they receive. I agree with misslane that for the most part in the New 52, Wonder Woman has been written poorly, but I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue.

In any case, I think Doomsday is a terrible character, boring and one-dimensional, a gimmick. I don't expect much from Doomed, but Pak and Kuder have been so consistent. I hope they can put out something good. This preview isn't giving me any faith though.

atleast you understand the point i was getting across, labeling WW a sue doesn't work here.
i agreee with your stance on doomed as well

[misslane]

the only point you have that could support the idea of her being a sue is how people have been marveling at her over dating superman. that's not enough to justify calling her a sue and to entertain that notion is foolish

I never said Wonder Woman is a Mary Sue or has all of the qualities often listed to describe Mary Sues. My only point was that a character can start to feel like a Mary Sue when she exhibits qualities of a Mary Sue, so when Wonder Woman is written as the object of constant thought and commentary (positive and negative), she is being written in a way that fits that specific aspect of a Mary Sue. It doesn't mean she has enough Mary Sue qualities altogether to get that label, and to be honest I don't really care for throwing around the title of Mary Sue because the definition is so malleable. It just means that with respect to that one aspect of a Mary Sue, Wonder Woman's characterization is similar. I don't see much value to this particular story beat, so I think it would be best if the creators use it in more moderation or not at all.

But I would say that Superman and Wonder Woman, individually and especially as a couple, most definitely have traits to justify the amount of attention they receive. I agree with misslane that for the most part in the New 52, Wonder Woman has been written poorly, but I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue.

I wouldn't call Wonder Woman a Mary Sue, and I didn't call her a Mary Sue. I also didn't generalize so much that I asserted that all of New 52 Wonder Woman's writing has been bad. I'm also not talking about the amount of attention Diana receives, but the repetition of very specific types of thoughts or comments featuring similar, superlative descriptors. It isn't necessary for so many narration boxes, comments from others, and inner monologues to throw in the most amazing woman, the most impressive on the planet, the most powerful in the world practically every time Wonder Woman is thought of or observed. It would be like Lois Lane receiving a nod for being a Pulitzer Prize winner every time she makes her first appearance in an issue or someone meets her.

[Blacksun]

I never said Wonder Woman is a Mary Sue or has all of the qualities often listed to describe Mary Sues. My only point was that a character can start to feel like a Mary Sue when she exhibits qualities of a Mary Sue, so when Wonder Woman is written as the object of constant thought and commentary (positive and negative), she is being written in a way that fits that specific aspect of a Mary Sue. It doesn't mean she has enough Mary Sue qualities altogether to get that label, and to be honest I don't really care for throwing around the title of Mary Sue because the definition is so malleable. It just means that with respect to that one aspect of a Mary Sue, Wonder Woman's characterization is similar. I don't see much value to this particular story beat, so I think it would be best if the creators use it in more moderation or not at all.



I wouldn't call Wonder Woman a Mary Sue, and I didn't call her a Mary Sue. I also didn't generalize so much that I asserted that all of New 52 Wonder Woman's writing has been bad. I'm also not talking about the amount of attention Diana receives, but the repetition of very specific types of thoughts or comments featuring similar, superlative descriptors. It isn't necessary for so many narration boxes, comments from others, and inner monologues to throw in the most amazing woman, the most impressive on the planet, the most powerful in the world practically every time Wonder Woman is thought of or observed. It would be like Lois Lane receiving a nod for being a Pulitzer Prize winner every time she makes her first appearance in an issue or someone meets her.

It start to be boring, specially when you know the intention of the writer isn't genuine at all. another case of shoving smww relationship down readers throats with two former love interest saying how awesome ww is and smww is.

[Lax]

http://www.comicosity.com/preview-action-comics-31/

Part of the Doomed crossover, good to see Kuder drawing the whole issue.

I like what I see so far.

[kidstandout]

you implied that continuing the trend of "pedestalization" could lead to her being a sue. it would take a lot more than just that for wonder woman to become a sue.

[misslane]

you implied that continuing the trend of "pedestalization" could lead to her being a sue. it would take a lot more than just that for wonder woman to become a sue.

So? I used the conditional "could" which implies that even if pedestalization did happen more, it alone may not necessarily create a Mary Sue. It would only ever be a contributing factor, as other things would also have to occur. This isn't even touching the fact that I've reiterated several times that I'm using the term Mary Sue loosely because even I think it's too broad and reductive a term. The "Better Girl" type discussed in the WW forum touches on some similar issues, although with key differences. Basically, I don't have the precise labels or vocabulary to articulate this, but constantly inserting superlatives as the first thing people note when they see or think of Wonder Woman to the point that it becomes conspicuous and forced can be problematic. I don't see this type of thing happening in Superman whenever anyone meets him or thinks about him. It comes across as editors and writers trying way too hard to remind people, often in the context of the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship, that Superman has the ultimate prize.

[Rakzo]

Guys? I don't know what this thread is about anymore...

[kidstandout]

So? I used the conditional "could" which implies that even if pedestalization did happen more, it alone may not necessarily create a Mary Sue. It would only ever be a contributing factor, as other things would also have to occur. This isn't even touching the fact that I've reiterated several times that I'm using the term Mary Sue loosely because even I think it's too broad and reductive a term. The "Better Girl" type discussed in the WW forum touches on some similar issues, although with key differences. Basically, I don't have the precise labels or vocabulary to articulate this, but constantly inserting superlatives as the first thing people note when they see or think of Wonder Woman to the point that it becomes conspicuous and forced can be problematic. I don't see this type of thing happening in Superman whenever anyone meets him or thinks about him. It comes across as editors and writers trying way too hard to remind people, often in the context of the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship, that Superman has the ultimate prize.

well this is the first time you acknowledged other factors would need to occur so it was safe to assume that you were saying ww could become a sue based only on "pedestalization". perhaps you would benefit from not using the term if your only focusing on one aspect of it, especially if you feel it's too broad.

[Auguste Dupin]

Guys? I don't know what this thread is about anymore...

Ho, you know...... "Superman/Wonder Woman is the worst ship that ever lived how dare any one even acknowledge its existence". The usual.
Plus, something about a book coming out, I don't know......Activity Comics or something.

[kidstandout]

Ho, you know...... "Superman/Wonder Woman is the worst ship that ever lived how dare any one even acknowledge its existence". The usual.
Plus, something about a book coming out, I don't know......Activity Comics or something.

hahahaha lol

[Superlad93]

Ho, you know...... "Superman/Wonder Woman is the worst ship that ever lived how dare any one even acknowledge its existence". The usual.
Plus, something about a book coming out, I don't know......Activity Comics or something.

Hold on so you're telling me this isn't the Wonder Woman forums? Superman, you say? Well I don't know about that buddy haha jk

[misslane]

well this is the first time you acknowledged other factors would need to occur so it was safe to assume that you were saying ww could become a sue based only on "pedestalization". perhaps you would benefit from not using the term if your only focusing on one aspect of it, especially if you feel it's too broad.

No, it's not safe to assume that I was saying Wonder Woman would, without question, turn into a Mary Sue if the pedestalization continued. She would have more crystallized Mary Sue like traits, but a character has to have an array of other attributes which are used consistently and abundantly enough to constitute the core characterization for me to even begin to feel comfortable labeling anyone a definitive Mary Sue. As I said before, I'm using the term (with qualifiers and conditions) because it has enough similarities and usefulness to convey my meaning. But, if you'd prefer, we could stick to the pedestalization term -- one I picked up in my Smallville meta reading days along with "fetishization" -- and agree to disagree on the nuances of Mary Sue-ishness.

Ho, you know...... "Superman/Wonder Woman is the worst ship that ever lived how dare any one even acknowledge its existence". The usual.
Plus, something about a book coming out, I don't know......Activity Comics or something.

Hold on so you're telling me this isn't the Wonder Woman forums? Superman, you say? Well I don't know about that buddy haha jk

The discussion is about Wonder Woman, who appears in this preview and is a major part of the Doomed event, and the comments Lois and Lana made in the preview for a Superman book. I'm open to a change in subject, though, so do either of you have something about the preview you'd like to discuss?

[Sacred Knight]

This reminds me of when fans flipped out because Mary Jane actually befriended and liked Carlie when Peter was dating her. Like not portraying the ex as being as butthurt as fans are about the situation is a slap in the face to that former relationship.

Pak makes Lana sound extremely mature in this preview, I love it. Who is Lois talking to though? Is it Jonathan or just Random Guy A? Either way I will grant her particular line isn't exactly organic.

[Typhoeus]

I remember PreNew 52 Lana; she was always portrayed as the ex-girlfriend still pining for Clark and looking for any opportunity to get him back. Greg Pak makes her more independent and mature. I really don't understand the critics on this thread. In Action Comics #31 she's making a statement about the evolution of the lonely nerd she knew; her comment is filled with admiration (and maybe a little nostalgia). She's an old friend who tells him: "You finally made it Clark! Way to go!!"
I don't see what's wrong with being supportive of an old pal.

[Superlad93]

The discussion is about Wonder Woman, who appears in this preview and is a major part of the Doomed event, and the comments Lois and Lana made in the preview for a Superman book. I'm open to a change in subject, though, so do either of you have something about the preview you'd like to discuss?

Well sure, but I was under the impression that you and I were discussing the implications of the superhero celebrity and public perception being a driving point in this story moving forward. More specifically we were talking about Lana (who had a rather large part in this preview) as the voice of the people looking at Superman. We were talking about this and how Pak has been building on these themes along with how Superman himself deals with the position he's put in (with the latest example being Action comics #30). I'd like to talk about all that since it seem like a rather BIG part of not just the Doom story but Pak's run so far.

Just waiting for you to respond to my last post actually.....