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  1. #106
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Greg Pak answer from his tumblr when complimented about the way he's been handling Lana and the way she views her and Clark's relationship.
    See, though, that's what I don't like. Why should Lana feel a "pang" at all? She and Clark barely dated, she ditched him (intended to slip away with no intent to say goodbye after keeping her plans a secret from him) and with seemingly little contact for years, and just got done spending some quality time with him. Any pang based on lost love therefore seems like a stretch which is barely worth a mention, and any pang based on a sense of Clark being on a different echelon than herself seems unnecessarily self-deprecating when regardless of the celebrity and super status, Clark and she just did some awesome stuff together on their own and Clark still seems interested in their friendship. I'm not annoyed because there wasn't jealousy, but confused why it was necessary to drag comparisons of then and now, powered and super powered into the situation at all.

  2. #107
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    No, but that's because I'm not projecting upon the scene so much that isn't there in the scene itself.
    I'm only adding the celeb angle that seems to be the DC theme and other aspects that Pak has introduced. Nothing I'm saying just came out of thin air. Along with everything Lana's face is my dead give away that it was comedic. But that's just me I guess.

    But seeing Superman with his super friends isn't an organic scene to address that. She's seen him with his super friends and knows what they look like and what they do. I agree that she's still figuring Clark out, but just seeing his teammates scoop him up and fly him away doesn't seem like a believable catalyst for such an important epiphany. Also, if the epiphany she was waiting for -- the one she wasn't getting from her earlier interactions with Clark himself -- was that he has super friends now that put him on another plane/status than the good ol' Clark, it's weird that seeing Superman with other heroes (which anyone could see in the news) would do the trick.
    Put it in the context of the battle that just happened. As it has been stated Superman will unleash power that will win the day but change the way people look at him. Then we have Lana saying there's nothing she can do for him if he's actually hurt other than stay by his side. It's that helpless feeling she has when things are taken to Clark's level. She's out of her depth. Then all of a sudden Wonder Woman and his godly friends swoop in and her worry is over. When Superman needed help most she felt useless to him cuz his problems are now on a new level.

    With her seeing Clark do what he did on the level he did it at and her not being of use to him while the JL came in. It seems only natural that she'd pick that moment to really think about stuff like that.

    Also I bet seeing superheroes in real life as opposed to just the new is a quite a different feeling. Then, again, put it into the context of what just happened (Doomsday). The JL are the only guys that ca stop this unstoppable thing with Clark at the lead.....and she saw all this. It's gotta be a new feeling.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 05-13-2014 at 07:04 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    No, it's not safe to assume that I was saying Wonder Woman would, without question, turn into a Mary Sue if the pedestalization continued. She would have more crystallized Mary Sue like traits, but a character has to have an array of other attributes which are used consistently and abundantly enough to constitute the core characterization for me to even begin to feel comfortable labeling anyone a definitive Mary Sue. As I said before, I'm using the term (with qualifiers and conditions) because it has enough similarities and usefulness to convey my meaning. But, if you'd prefer, we could stick to the pedestalization term -- one I picked up in my Smallville meta reading days along with "fetishization" -- and agree to disagree on the nuances of Mary Sue-ishness.





    The discussion is about Wonder Woman, who appears in this preview and is a major part of the Doomed event, and the comments Lois and Lana made in the preview for a Superman book. I'm open to a change in subject, though, so do either of you have something about the preview you'd like to discuss?
    your original comment only mentions that "pedestalization" could lead to mary sueness, because you neglected to mention the other factors that could lead to mary sueness and only owned up to it when called upon to due so, you are effectively backtracking. but whatever, we're past that point. and yes i'd agree to keep using the term "pedestalization", even if i don't believe it is happening to the same extent you are saying, if at all.
    Last edited by kidstandout; 05-13-2014 at 06:55 PM.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhoeus View Post
    "You finally made it Clark! Way to go!!"
    I don't see what's wrong with being supportive of an old pal.
    Finally made it to what? Why is this a new revelation for Lana? Has she been living under a rock for the last couple of years? I want to be clear that I'm not super pissed about this, but confused about the kind of history and knowledge Pak had to assume Lana had to make this work. I also think it's the wording itself and the timing. Cheering on having "made it" seems like an odd note to hit when Superman's in such dire straits that the whole league had to rescue him. It seems strange, too, to have Lana differentiate between "friends" and "super friends" in a way that made it feel as if Lana felt where Clark was, she couldn't follow. She's proud of him, but why does his success have to instill a sense in her of his leaving her behind for bigger and better things? In other words, I find her grace and maturity wonderful but I don't know why it was deemed necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'm only adding the celeb angle that seems to be the DC theme and other aspects that Pak has introduced. Nothing I'm saying just came out of thin air. Along with everything Lana's face is my dead give away that it was comedic. But that's just me I guess.
    First, I maintain that there's nothing comedic about Lana's reactions to Lois' comments. She sounds annoyed with Lois, so if there is humor it's sarcasm. Your idea makes sense if we're talking about strangers, but Lana isn't just a regular Jane Doe on the street talking about the latest thing Jennifer Lawrence did. This is her childhood friend and high school sweetheart. Dragging the celebrity stuff into one of the few relationships Clark has with a human being who knows his secret creates a clash, and the only reason it existed in the scene was because Lois was written as super eager to inform Lana about Superman's love life because I guess she's a gossip whose first thought when she sees the hero she's close to in desperate pain is time to chit chat about the ultimate power couple to Clark's hometown pal. It's that important to Lois, and to Pak who wrote the scene, for Lana's and Lois's first reactions to the situation is not to be grateful yet concerned for Superman getting his friends' help or curiosity about what happened (like the good reporter Lois is), but rather who the princess of the superhero world is dating. Just keeping Lana's internal monologue more or less as is would have been sufficient.

    Put it in the context of the battle that just happened. As it has been stated Superman will unleash power that will win the day but change the way people look at him. Then we have Lana saying there's nothing she can do for him if he's actually hurt other than stay by his side. It's that helpless feeling she has when things are taken to Clark's level. She's out of her depth. Then all of a sudden Wonder Woman and his godly friends swoop in and her worry is over. When Superman needed help most she felt useless to him cuz his problems are now on a new level.
    So? This would not be a new idea for Lana. She would have plenty of experience not being able to help Superman or deal with things in the same way he does. If the focus remained just on the gratitude that she has that her friend has people who can take care of him, that's like the reaction a concerned family member would have when an ambulance of expert medics arrive to take the injured party to a hospital to get more expert care. The more relatable and touching common thread here is the friendship and love these characters have for each other. The celebrity and romance stuff feels tonally off and forced. I prefer the moment not be about the differences which separate, but the similarities that join them all together.
    Last edited by misslane; 05-13-2014 at 07:25 PM.

  5. #110
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidstandout View Post
    your original comment only mentions that "pedestalization" could lead to mary sueness, because you neglected to mention the other factors that could lead to mary sueness and only owned up to it when called upon to due so, you are effectively backtracking. but whatever, we're past that point. and yes i'd agree to keep using the term "pedestalization", even if i don't believe it is happening to the same extent you are saying, if at all.
    You jumped to the wrong conclusion based on an inaccurate assumption about my meaning. If I had said continued pedestalization would or will lead to a more Mary Sue characterization, then your original conclusion would be correct. The use of the conditional word "could" implies, of course, there are conditions (i.e. other factors to consider).

  6. #111
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    In retrospect regarding Lois, I wasn't looking at her lines with the knowledge of her current situation. That had slipped my mind. Last we saw she was completely under Brainiac's control, so I'm not sure why that would suddenly change here. With that in mind, her pointing out the obvious-like statements could be attributed to her condition.

    And nevermind me asking who Lois was talking to. I thought it was a guy because I thought "he" had short hair, didn't realize it was Lana all along, lol.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-14-2014 at 03:42 AM.

  7. #112
    Incredible Member MosSuperman's Avatar
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    I enjoyed watching superman beat up lex but as a big superman fan I would prefer him to be the grown respectable man that he his and ignore him instead of fighting like a brute. That's why i like superman unchained and superman/wonder woman because his characterization is way better than what Johns has done with him in the justice league or Lobdell in superman. I would also like for Snyder to take over superman instead of Johns because I think he understands clark better and he makes look smart as to Johns way of just brawling.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    You jumped to the wrong conclusion based on an inaccurate assumption about my meaning. If I had said continued pedestalization would or will lead to a more Mary Sue characterization, then your original conclusion would be correct. The use of the conditional word "could" implies, of course, there are conditions (i.e. other factors to consider).
    those other factors still have to be mentioned in order for that to make sense. your statement says could lead to mary sueness, with out specifying what other conditions, all your left go on is what follows after could. the fact that those other factors clearly blow a whole in your argument shows that you weren't considering them when you made your original statement. but whatever

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