Thread Re-Drift: Cyclops, Hope, Phoenix, the Avengers & AvX

[ExodusCloak]

The fact that it was destroying planets (and has been portrayed as being dangerous in its convoluted past) was more than enough reason to have the Avengers panicking. Nothing the Phoenix did prior to its coming to Earth suggested it had benevolent intentions. For crying out loud, the first time the X-Men encountered it, the thing ate a star. I guess volatile cosmic entities are A-OK as long as they harm anyone except mutants.

Incorrect, the first time the X-Men encountered the Phoenix Force it saved them and saved the Multiverse (Now retconned to Universe) by repairing the M'Kraan Crystal.

What would you do the Phoenix? The Sh'iar have tried to destroy it countless times and failed despite it being pivitol to all of existence. It's a force not a being like Wanda.

[ExodusCloak]

It's vital, they couldn't destroy it even if they wanted to.

[Mr. Brightside]

actually it's misinformation like that which panicked POTUS and had him scramble an unprovoked assault on utopia.

the first time the x-men encountered phoenix, she healed the ruptured fabric of the universe and saved everything in existence.

And its avatar Jean used it again later to fix a universe infected by Sublime to the point of evolutionary chaos due to Beast's drug habit.

Great point (the bolded), Aces. I expect shadiness of that caliber from Iron Man, but not from Cap (back then).

[Mr. Brightside]

X-men had their chance to properly train Hope to control the Phoenix... they had her for months. But when it came for her, she couldn't do it. That's why the Avengers were needed... to train her to do it.

And they were also needed to break the Phoenix, because it came to her before she was ready.

And the thing which supports my claims are the actual AvX books.

She only needed Kun Lun, a point that appeared between AvX, so the Avengers literally LUCKED out. The X-plan was clearly better, that and the fact the Avengers were going to kill her as shown in AvX.
All based on the books as well.

[ExodusCloak]

She only needed Kun Lun, a point that appeared between AvX, so the Avengers literally LUCKED out. The X-plan was clearly better, that and the fact the Avengers were going to kill her as shown in AvX.
All based on the books as well.

Which begs the question would Kun Lun have appeared to Hope if she were with the X-Men? Had the Avengers waited till #7 to see what happens, and Kun Lun showed up asking for Hope to use the Phoenix Force. Both sides would have agreed.

[Mr. Brightside]

Which begs the question would Kun Lun have appeared to Hope if she were with the X-Men? Had the Avengers waited till #7 to see what happens, and Kun Lun showed up asking for Hope to use the Phoenix Force. Both sides would have agreed.

Good point. #6 was terrible showing for the Avengers. The x-men were doing nothing close to evil, even saving at least 3 Avengers from certain death. They botched up their kidnapping attempt, and if not for Wanda's crazed vision, who knows how things would have turned out.

Kunlun sphere appears, spiderman chosen as hopes tutor, he goes visit Utopia, Cyke not pissed since we're assuming they didnt try to kidnap hope (that and the fact Spidermans nobility is wide and well known), they let him train her, happy ending.

[Star_Jammer]

She only needed Kun Lun, a point that appeared between AvX, so the Avengers literally LUCKED out. The X-plan was clearly better, that and the fact the Avengers were going to kill her as shown in AvX.
All based on the books as well.

How, exactly, was kicking Hope in the gut while she was already down "better"?

[AcesX1X]

How, exactly, was kicking Hope in the gut whil she was already down "better"?

physical combat is standard training. danny rand experienced much more brutal techniques in the fabled kun-lun.

[Star_Jammer]

physical combat is standard training. danny rand experienced much more brutal techniques in the fabled kun-lun.

How is physical combat going to fare against the Phoenix?

[Mr. Brightside]

How, exactly, was kicking Hope in the gut while she was already down "better"?

Better than Iron Mans plan: Oh, all we have to do is have Hope (both the girl and the noun)!!!! That's what all my tests proved!!!!
That and once more, it was cosmic kung fu that won in the end, kung fu obviously made easy from a lifestyle of combat training. You try to learn kung fu from a teacher like Spidey (no offense, he cool) in like a month.

[AcesX1X]

How is physical combat going to fare against the Phoenix?

the same way balancing buckets of water will, i suppose.

[dragonmp93]

Was Jean Grey's destruction of a planet while possessed by the PF retconned away??

The Phoenix force possessing an individual under certain circumstances IS dangerous.

History has shown that. That's what the whole Trial of Jean Grey was about.

And ret-retconned, and ret-ret-retconned; but anyways, the point is that the host only loses control when you mess with its mind, for instance, no one messed up with Rachel's mind, so she never went Dark (Red) Phoenix.

Be it 1 year or a 1,000,000 years ago, it's Marvel cannon.

We don't get to pick and choose what forms cannon, Marvel does.

Jean Grey, Scott Summers and Namor can testify to the dangerous effects of the PF.

Iron Man was 100% correct in highlighting the dangers of the PF.

Yeah, but isnt that what this discussion is about ?.

You said Wanda conceded to the possession, indicating a sort of submissiveness or acceptance to it.

As shown in CC, there was risk to summoning th Life Forc, but apparently with enough magic users involved (Wiccan, Wanda, and Doom) it can be controlled.

The drunk driving analogy is boring and tired, by the way. Alcohol is not a separate, sentient (?) entity that can completely take one over. For the most part, people are in control of their actions while inebriated. They just don't give a damn. Alcohol doesn't "possess" people.

Well, a power-booster doesnt possess people either.

[dragonmp93]

Good point. #6 was terrible showing for the Avengers. The x-men were doing nothing close to evil, even saving at least 3 Avengers from certain death. They botched up their kidnapping attempt, and if not for Wanda's crazed vision, who knows how things would have turned out.

Kunlun sphere appears, spiderman chosen as hopes tutor, he goes visit Utopia, Cyke not pissed since we're assuming they didnt try to kidnap hope (that and the fact Spidermans nobility is wide and well known), they let him train her, happy ending.

Well, in the Avengers' defense, Cyclops and Emma were doing two of worst things known to man, sleeping and drinking wine while reading a fashion magazine.

The fact that it was destroying planets (and has been portrayed as being dangerous in its convoluted past) was more than enough reason to have the Avengers panicking. Nothing the Phoenix did prior to its coming to Earth suggested it had benevolent intentions. For crying out loud, the first time the X-Men encountered it, the thing ate a star. I guess volatile cosmic entities are A-OK as long as they harm anyone except mutants.

Well, given that NO ONE but the X-men cares about what happens to the mutants; its really that bad that they something in their side ?, after all the Avengers have the Scarlet Witch.

[Star_Jammer]

Well, a power-booster doesnt possess people either.

Ah, so Scott was in his righ mind when he killed Xavier.

[dragonmp93]

Ah, so Scott was in his righ mind when he killed Xavier.

Well, first the Phoenix is a sentient being, unlike Doctor Doom's power-booster, and second, if we take everything since AvX into acccount then, by "popular vote", yes, he was in his right mind back then.