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  1. #1756
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Modern Norman still acts like a goofball all the way up to Osborn: Evil Incarcerated, and Norman always had a personal connection to Peter as that was the intent. Norman first appeared as part of Jameson's club of rich elitist douchebags (lol) and was established as Harry's father prior to Ditko leaving. Also, Ditko's Norman was very much cold and psychopathic, much like Modern Norman and Spectacular Norman.
    He acts far, far more serious nowadays to the point he just makes jokes here and there if even that much.

    And the personal connection he had with Peter was slim under Ditko, to the point the strongest connection he had with Peter wasn't even Harry (since him and Peter detested each other), but was JJ instead, and ultimately neither connection went anywhere since Ditko left before developing this.

    Bendis and Slott have sadly brought back the "Goblin formula makes you insane" thing of the 90s show and of the Raimi film. My opinion is that Bendis doesn't like the Green Goblin and/or understand him.
    Typical of Bendis lol.

    He has tried to reinvent Norman Osborn twice now and neither of those versions stuck around.

    I do think an event on the scale of Dark Reign could have worked with the Green Goblin from Marvel Knights or from the Osborn miniseries.
    Biggest thing that gets in the way of Dark Reign making sense is that Norman was a known terrorist by that point anyways lol.

    If it had happened before he was arrested then it'd be more believable, or hell, if he was disguised, like using something like Mason Banks identity (Yes, I know Banks came after Dark Reign, I'm talking about the idea of having another identity to fool SHIELD or whatever).

    He's not very different from the Norman in Revenge of the Green Goblin, Death in the Family, Marvel Knights, and Evil Incarcerated. In fact, I would argue you could have done almost a straight adaptation of all of those in the show (or some mix of them).
    Man, Spectacular Norman blatantly got the added traits from Revenge of the Green Goblin and Marvel Knights with the way he favors Peter over Harry, so of course those stories being adapted to it would work without looking too weird (Though they would need to have him learn who Spidey is first), Spectacular Norman takes mostly after Ditko, but wasn't dumb enough to avoid the newer traits that could give interesting plot points.

    Don't remember if I read the other two so I can't comment on 'em.

    Anyways, Spectacular Norman has bigger plans than just trying to punch Spider-Man in the face, because they kept his trait of trying to take over the gangs, while 616 Norman got flanderized and generally wants to only torment Spidey or be a terrorist and not much else, and again, Spencer's own run was hinting at him just doing terrorism since he had that device that would basically nuke New York.

    Also, can't believe I forgot that, but Spectacular Norman also takes Roderick's trait of using other people, making Harry take the fall for being Green Goblin (Like Roderick did with Flash and Ned), and forcing Mark to be a super-villain, while not something Roderick did, it does sound more like something he'd do and not Norman... Which still makes me wonder what the hell they could do with Roderick besides "More than one person is Hobgoblin".

    Again, this is a myth. The Green Goblin made more appearances in the Ditko era than any other villain, was the one villain to always get away and one-up Spider-Man, and was the first to successfully trick Spider-Man (thereby establishing thematically as the alpha male of his villains). Even as early as ASM #14, it's clear the Green Goblin is seen by Lee/Ditko as the big bad he was always meant to be. It's simply not true that all of that came with or started with Romita.
    I mean, Spidey himself doesn't see him as that much of a threat, in ASM#14 he focuses on the Hulk more and even mentions once he could easily deal with GG but is too tired from fighting the Hulk, and then in ASM#17 the battle was unfinished 'cause Spidey decided to leave because he was worried about aunt May, if the intent in those battles was to make GG look like a big deal it didn't really help out much, ASM#27 at least has him actually escaping and building him up as eventually doing something big, but when it comes to how imposing a villain was, Otto looked more threatening than GG even if he eventually lost his battles.

    Like I said in my previous post, the point of Norman's "death" in #122 was to 1) allow the reader some breathing room after that intense climax (meaning a break from Norman for at least a while) and 2) it sets up Harry's eventual demise. Once Harry is dead and two decades have past, in theory it seems fine to bring back Norman.
    But the point of the story is to kill him, why would it be fine for him to be brought back without ruining the original?

    If we say "Oh x amount of time has passed, we can resurrect the villain now", then Grim Hunt bringing back Kraven is fine too.

    I would add three other reasons to that:

    1) Peter isn't even the one who kills him, so his death doesn't mean anything for Peter in the way other villain deaths do. The Night Gwen Stacy Died is a story about Peter choosing to not be consumed by revenge, which can be told with or without Norman dead (Gwen's death however does mean something for Peter and his development, and also for MJ's development).
    Norman still dies by the end and now he's out of the picture, that is big no matter if Peter was the one to kill him or not, everything that happened with Harry afterwards was because of Norman's death, him dying there is a huge deal even if Peter himself didn't do it, plus Norman being dead has Peter point out how he should feel happy, but instead feels nothing, so there's that pyrrhic victory angle too.

    And you can't say that Norman dying or not doesn't matter for the story and then point out that Gwen's death does, both of those deaths had repercussions, or are you going to say the stories afterwards would be the same with a living Norman? 'Cause again, his death caused Harry's own downfall that made him become Green Goblin.

    2) Archenemies having a "final showdown" in your main serialized superhero continuity typically doesn't work. Most archenemies are designed to be ongoing like their respective heroes. It's because archenemies embody the opposite ideals of their respective heroes, and are therefore just as eternal.
    Spider-Man, while it used a lot of super-hero tropes, was ultimately doing his own thing at times, which's why he stood out so much, just because everyone else keeps their archenemies alive forever, doesn't mean he should do it like everyone else, and he didn't, for a while at least, and those 20 years have shown how Spidey doesn't need Norman in any way, even if we have more story potential with him alive.

    3) The idea of Norman as an always evolving and growing threat to parallel Spider-Man who is about growth is IMO more interesting and was therefore worth Norman being brought back.
    And like I said, we got good things from his resurrection, but saying that Norman's resurrection doesn't ruin ASM#122 is just weird, there's problems with the resurrection, and it's fine, even good retcons bring oddities.

    Quality has a lot to do with it, that's for sure. That said, OMD was always the symptom to the problem. The actual problem is editors not wanting Peter to be written like an adult. Even if you make a truly phenomenal story where a 25-year old Peter acts childish, it's always going to stick out as a sore thumb in a way that Norman's resurrection never will.
    Yeah, and it sticking out is a temporary thing, what happens afterwards and how its judged over time is what'll matter more.

    Hell, Peter marrying MJ at all was rushed and awkward, and was only done because Marvel wanted to line up the marriage with the newspaper's version, does it matter that it started awkwardly? Not really, we got good stories afterwards that compensated for the awkward start, in a similar vein, single Peter could've worked even by it happening because of OMD, because it standing out at first doesn't mean much in the long run, if what we get afterwards is worth a damn, it just happens that Peter being single didn't, specially with those awful love interests, and it's not even because Peter being single doesn't work, it's just that the way Marvel tried to keep him single doesn't work, because their attempts made him immature and obnoxious, which didn't work after the marriage had him being more mature and actually developing instead of regressing.

    Ultimately changes like that are tools, and a bad story that brings a change, while it'll look worse at first, it's what's done with it afterwards that matters more, OMD just happens to be one of the the worst possible cases, a bad story, that caused a bad change, that ultimately did nothing remotely interesting in the long run besides making fans butthurt for 14 years and counting.

  2. #1757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    He acts far, far more serious nowadays to the point he just makes jokes here and there if even that much.
    I would say it depends on the story. He is very serious in Dark Reign and any Iron Patriot stuff (it's part of why I don't like that take on Norman - it feels like a different character than the one in Spider-Man comics). Typically when he is the Goblin, though, he is still jokey and carefree.

    And the personal connection he had with Peter was slim under Ditko, to the point the strongest connection he had with Peter wasn't even Harry (since him and Peter detested each other), but was JJ instead, and ultimately neither connection went anywhere since Ditko left before developing this.
    It was only slim because Ditko left in the middle of Goblin mystery. The Goblin in the Ditko run was just starting out and Norman just got introduced as Norman. I mean, Peter had just met Harry and just started college.

    So of course it would be slim by the time Ditko left. It doesn't mean it wasn't planned, though. By ASM #38 Ditko still left us with a Norman and Harry who are close to Peter's inner circles, a Norman who is dissapointed in Harry, and a Harry is insecure of Peter's intellect. That is pretty much the Peter/Norman/Harry dynamic and it's easy to see where it was going.

    Probably the only major thing that wasn't planned by Ditko is Norman seeing Peter as a son and wanting to destroy his personal life at every opportunity. That was something that came with Stern/Jenkins and probably not something Ditko would have anticipated. Still, I would argue it's a natural add-on and doesn't contradict anything Ditko was doing. And Spectacular Spider-Man had the benefit of hindsight and were able to have that there from the beginning.

    Anyways, Spectacular Norman has bigger plans than just trying to punch Spider-Man in the face, because they kept his trait of trying to take over the gangs, while 616 Norman got flanderized and generally wants to only torment Spidey or be a terrorist and not much else, and again, Spencer's own run was hinting at him just doing terrorism since he had that device that would basically nuke New York.
    Mainly because Modern Green Goblin is established and controls portions of the Underworld already (as shown by Marvel Knights and Death in the Family, where he had henchmen). In other words, he isn't as focused on taking over the Underworld because he already did to a huge extent.

    Also, can't believe I forgot that, but Spectacular Norman also takes Roderick's trait of using other people, making Harry take the fall for being Green Goblin (Like Roderick did with Flash and Ned), and forcing Mark to be a super-villain, while not something Roderick did, it does sound more like something he'd do and not Norman... Which still makes me wonder what the hell they could do with Roderick besides "More than one person is Hobgoblin".
    The idea of Norman creating villains and using people like that first was introduced with Ultimate Spider-Man and Marvel Knights. Spectacular Spider-Man likely got the idea from there, as did the MCU but with Stark (another problem with him being a mentor to Peter).

    I do think it's telling how ingrained the myth that "Green Goblin took ideas from Hobgoblin" is when Greg Weisman has to repeatedly state on his site that his inspiration for Spectacular Norman all came from 616 Norman and Ultimate Norman, and not from Hobgoblin.

    I'm also interested in how Weisman's Hobgoblin would have looked, though.

    I mean, Spidey himself doesn't see him as that much of a threat, in ASM#14 he focuses on the Hulk more and even mentions once he could easily deal with GG but is too tired from fighting the Hulk, and then in ASM#17 the battle was unfinished 'cause Spidey decided to leave because he was worried about aunt May, if the intent in those battles was to make GG look like a big deal it didn't really help out much, ASM#27 at least has him actually escaping and building him up as eventually doing something big, but when it comes to how imposing a villain was, Otto looked more threatening than GG even if he eventually lost his battles.
    We did see Peter constantly thinking about the Green Goblin in other issues, but generally I do agree with Ock being more imposing in the Ditko run. I think a lot of that though has to do with GG being introduced relatively late and the mystery having just started. Also, Ock is arguably a more fitting archenemy for Ditko's Peter even though that wasn't the intent. It's because Ditko's Peter was still kinda bitter and didn't have many people close to him, and he had that in common with Ock. So with Peter not having gotten his bitterness and avoidant personality in check, and with GG still being a total mystery, Ock thematically has more presence in those early issues on top of the fact that he had a head start. Hope that made sense.

    But the point of the story is to kill him, why would it be fine for him to be brought back without ruining the original?

    And like I said, we got good things from his resurrection, but saying that Norman's resurrection doesn't ruin ASM#122 is just weird, there's problems with the resurrection, and it's fine, even good retcons bring oddities.
    When characters get brought back in sequels or serialized storytelling, it also changes how people view the original story. It's part of why some people really want to see Tobey and Andrew again in NWH (as redemption for their bad films) or are worried about their involvement (as it might hurt their older films if this one isn't good). Honestly, this explains why some of the divide over Norman's resurrection is generational. The new gens have less of a problem interpreting it in a way that makes sense because to them Norman was there all along.

    If we say "Oh x amount of time has passed, we can resurrect the villain now", then Grim Hunt bringing back Kraven is fine too.
    I thought Grim Hunt was a meh story, but even if it wasn't, I think villains Green Goblin will always be thematically more connected to Peter than Kraven, and might therefore leave a permanent vacuum (and did just that) in a way Kraven wouldn't.

    Norman still dies by the end and now he's out of the picture, that is big no matter if Peter was the one to kill him or not, everything that happened with Harry afterwards was because of Norman's death, him dying there is a huge deal even if Peter himself didn't do it, plus Norman being dead has Peter point out how he should feel happy, but instead feels nothing, so there's that pyrrhic victory angle too.

    And you can't say that Norman dying or not doesn't matter for the story and then point out that Gwen's death does, both of those deaths had repercussions, or are you going to say the stories afterwards would be the same with a living Norman? 'Cause again, his death caused Harry's own downfall that made him become Green Goblin.
    I did say, that one of the purposes of that story was to set up Harry's demise, so I agree it wouldn't have been a good idea to bring back Norman prior to Harry's death. I think any time after that, however, would be fair game if executed right.

    Spider-Man, while it used a lot of super-hero tropes, was ultimately doing his own thing at times, which's why he stood out so much, just because everyone else keeps their archenemies alive forever, doesn't mean he should do it like everyone else, and he didn't, for a while at least, and those 20 years have shown how Spidey doesn't need Norman in any way, even if we have more story potential with him alive.
    I mean, "need" is a strong word. I don't know if Spider-Man "needs" any of his current villains, to be fully honest. That said, the number of failed new Green Goblins that didn't stick around long-term, and the fact they created a carbon copy of Norman with the Hobgoblin (what's the point of that?), to me suggests that Norman's resurrection would have been a good idea in theory as early as the 90s, even without having hindsight.


    Biggest thing that gets in the way of Dark Reign making sense is that Norman was a known terrorist by that point anyways lol.

    If it had happened before he was arrested then it'd be more believable, or hell, if he was disguised, like using something like Mason Banks identity (Yes, I know Banks came after Dark Reign, I'm talking about the idea of having another identity to fool SHIELD or whatever).


    Yeah, and it sticking out is a temporary thing, what happens afterwards and how its judged over time is what'll matter more.

    Hell, Peter marrying MJ at all was rushed and awkward, and was only done because Marvel wanted to line up the marriage with the newspaper's version, does it matter that it started awkwardly? Not really, we got good stories afterwards that compensated for the awkward start, in a similar vein, single Peter could've worked even by it happening because of OMD, because it standing out at first doesn't mean much in the long run, if what we get afterwards is worth a damn, it just happens that Peter being single didn't, specially with those awful love interests, and it's not even because Peter being single doesn't work, it's just that the way Marvel tried to keep him single doesn't work, because their attempts made him immature and obnoxious, which didn't work after the marriage had him being more mature and actually developing instead of regressing.

    Ultimately changes like that are tools, and a bad story that brings a change, while it'll look worse at first, it's what's done with it afterwards that matters more, OMD just happens to be one of the the worst possible cases, a bad story, that caused a bad change, that ultimately did nothing remotely interesting in the long run besides making fans butthurt for 14 years and counting.
    Agreed on all of this.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 12-07-2021 at 04:27 PM.

  3. #1758
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    It was only slim because Ditko left in the middle of Goblin mystery. The Goblin in the Ditko run was just starting out and Norman just got introduced as Norman. I mean, Peter had just met Harry and just started college.

    So of course it would be slim by the time Ditko left. It doesn't mean it wasn't planned, though. By ASM #38 Ditko still left us with a Norman and Harry who are close to Peter's inner circles, a Norman who is dissapointed in Harry, and a Harry is insecure of Peter's intellect. That is pretty much the Peter/Norman/Harry dynamic and it's easy to see where it was going.
    The one interview I'm aware of where Ditko taked about GG, he mentioned drama between Norman and JJ since they were part of the same club, Peter even notices JJ talking with someone and notices JJ is smiling to establish that, unfortunately, once Romita took over, that went nowhere, only two scenes reference that they're friends, and they go nowhere important.

    And Harry being GG's son would cause drama, but we don't know how badly that would affect Peter, 'cause again, by that point they detested each other, and it's possible they would never become friends, or maybe they could at least stop disliking each other, or maybe they'd be friends, either way, we have no way of knowing if Harry would be important, or how important he could be.

    As for Norman being disappointed at Harry, never got that impression, he was an ******* with Harry in ASM#37, but that was after Stromm did an attack on Oscorp and Harry was asking too many questions, afterwards their relationship seems to be largely neutral.

    Don't remember Harry feeling insecure because of Peter's intellect either, any scene where Harry talks about Peter, he acts in a way that is barely any different from Flash, meaning he's being an ******* because he's an *******, and the few times he mentioned Peter's intellect, he seemed more annoyed at how arrogant he thought Peter was than anything:



    (ASM#34 vol 1).

    Probably the only major thing that wasn't planned by Ditko is Norman seeing Peter as a son and wanting to destroy his personal life at every opportunity. That was something that came with Stern/Jenkins and probably not something Ditko would have anticipated. Still, I would argue it's a natural add-on and doesn't contradict anything Ditko was doing. And Spectacular Spider-Man had the benefit of hindsight and were able to have that there from the beginning.
    Eh, it's weird with Ditko's Goblin in mind since he only thought that Spidey was a pest, and didn't have the weird insanity he got later on, and Ditko's Norman as a father didn't seem to hate Harry for existing like he started to act post resurrection, so the "I want you to be my son" is weird for either Ditko's or Romita's Norman because he only hated Spidey.

    Mainly because Modern Green Goblin is established and controls portions of the Underworld already (as shown by Marvel Knights and Death in the Family, where he had henchmen). In other words, he isn't as focused on taking over the Underworld because he already did to a huge extent.
    Huh, he mostly acts on his own so I never really got the impression he has some underworld control... Although that stuff is likely gone post Superior, but good reminder he had something at some point.

    The idea of Norman creating villains and using people like that first was introduced with Ultimate Spider-Man and Marvel Knights. Spectacular Spider-Man likely got the idea from there, as did the MCU but with Stark (another problem with him being a mentor to Peter).
    Are you saying Stark is MCU's Norman? .

    Also didn't Marvel Knights say it was the government who created other villains? Or are you referencing how Otto was used there? 'Cause he didn't create super villains there as far as I remember, and either way, it's something that was more of Roderick's style before Norman also did that, though at least it wasn't done the same way.

    I do think it's telling how ingrained the myth that "Green Goblin took ideas from Hobgoblin" is when Greg Weisman has to repeatedly state on his site that his inspiration for Spectacular Norman all came from 616 Norman and Ultimate Norman, and not from Hobgoblin.
    I didn't even know that was ingrained, I just reached that assumption based on how Spectacular GG acts, and him making Harry take the fall is still very much a Roderick thing to do (With the biggest difference is that Roderick having a fall guy is planned, while Norman came up with that on the fly), regardless of it being taken from him or not lol.

    I'm also interested in how Weisman's Hobgoblin would have looked, though.
    Maybe he could get some tech from tri-corp to have more different stuff compared to Norman, including the design, so maybe an armor like Shocker, Ricochet and Ox ended up using?

    We did see Peter constantly thinking about the Green Goblin in other issues,
    I'm pretty sure that only happened in ASM#17, any other time he seemed to just react to GG showing up, but correct me if I'm wrong.

    but generally I do agree with Ock being more imposing in the Ditko run. I think a lot of that though has to do with GG being introduced relatively late and the mystery having just started.
    He was introduced in ASM#14, and showed up a few times and only ASM#27 really started to make him look big, so the problem wasn't how late he showed up, but how long it took for him to look dangerous, but yeah, considering that Norman became an actual character in ASM#37, and seemed to quickly take over ASM as a villain (ASM#37 and #38 aren't continuing each other's story and Norman shows up in both doing shady ****, that's very noticeable), it's possible that he could become a far bigger threat afterwards, maybe even before ASM#40.

    Also, Ock is arguably a more fitting archenemy for Ditko's Peter even though that wasn't the intent. It's because Ditko's Peter was still kinda bitter and didn't have many people close to him, and he had that in common with Ock. So with Peter not having gotten his bitterness and avoidant personality in check, and with GG still being a total mystery, Ock thematically has more presence in those early issues on top of the fact that he had a head start. Hope that made sense.
    There was an intent to a certain extent for Otto to be a big villain, he's the first one to have a very clean win against Spidey, he formed the Sinister Six, and was the Master Planner, so while I find dubious that he wasn't supposed to be an archenemy, he was at the very least meant to be above everyone else.

    When characters get brought back in sequels or serialized storytelling, it also changes how people view the original story. It's part of why some people really want to see Tobey and Andrew again in NWH (as redemption for their bad films) or are worried about their involvement (as it might hurt their older films if this one isn't good). Honestly, this explains why some of the divide over Norman's resurrection is generational. The new gens have less of a problem interpreting it in a way that makes sense because to them Norman was there all along.
    Yeah being used to whatever status quo makes it easier to accept a change if you never saw how it was before the change, and again, I don't even mind Norman being around, I just think it's worthy to point out how much he changed because of his return.

    I thought Grim Hunt was a meh story, but even if it wasn't, I think villains Green Goblin will always be thematically more connected to Peter than Kraven, and might therefore leave a permanent vacuum (and did just that) in a way Kraven wouldn't.
    Fair enough.

    I did say, that one of the purposes of that story was to set up Harry's demise, so I agree it wouldn't have been a good idea to bring back Norman prior to Harry's death. I think any time after that, however, would be fair game if executed right.
    If we follow that logic, then it means that after specific plot points were done, Gwen could be resurrected without a problem.

    Part of the point of ASM#121 and 122 was to kill off Gwen and Norman, having one or both resurrected at all ruins that specific point, while Norman taking so long to return made it less damaging, again, it still kinda ruins a classic story.

    And again, before stuff like Clone Saga, resurrections in Spidey's world just weren't that common, deaths were mostly an actual consequence, characters died and the world moved on, Norman and aunt May resurrecting are very noticeable changes in Spidey's world, and while both of those resurrections brought good stuff (Until OMD undid aunt May's good stuff lol), again, it's a very noticeable change, and unfortunately around that time, death and resurrection became more common in super-hero comics too, I particularly blame Superman's death for this lol.

    I mean, "need" is a strong word. I don't know if Spider-Man "needs" any of his current villains, to be fully honest. That said, the number of failed new Green Goblins that didn't stick around long-term, and the fact they created a carbon copy of Norman with the Hobgoblin (what's the point of that?), to me suggests that Norman's resurrection would have been a good idea in theory as early as the 90s, even without having hindsight.
    The point is that while Norman is a big deal, and having him around is better than not, he's not such a necessity that not having him at all would be that noticeable if he never came back, of course, there was a vacuum, and they the intent behind Roderick was blatantly to have another Goblin, but we also got Venom fill that vacuum, and Otto on occasion did something big too
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 12-07-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  4. #1759
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    The point is that while Norman is a big deal, and having him around is better than not, he's not such a necessity that not having him at all would be that noticeable if he never came back, of course, there was a vacuum, and they the intent behind Roderick was blatantly to have another Goblin, but we also got Venom fill that vacuum, and Otto on occasion did something big too
    I think I liked the idea of a legacy of the Green Goblin more than I've ever actually liked Norman himself. Norman killed Gwen and then he died. Then Peter is constantly dealing with the latest Goblin or the latest whoever that had connections to the Goblin.

    It made Norman feel important without having to change who the character actually was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Agreed. Also, from what I noticed, the division over whether Norman should have stayed dead or not seems partly generational. Millenial fans on average seem happier with it than Gen X fans and Boomer fans.

    Personally, I don't see any reason why Norman should have stayed dead and plenty of reasons why he should have been brought back. Norman never used up his full potential, as proven by all the great Green Goblin stories that came out after the Clone Saga. Nor was he ever a bland character who was voted off like Jason Todd. And the fact they brought in a carbon copy to fill his vacuum (Hobgoblin) as well as several other failed Green Goblins... that proves that his death left a hole in the Spider-Man mythos.

    As for Norman's resurrection "ruining a classic story"... Did it really? The way I see it, Green Goblin's death at the end of ASM #122 serves two purposes. 1) It gives the reader some breathing room after the intense climax of their fight, and 2) it sets up Harry's eventual demise as a Green Goblin. Once Harry is dead and twenty years have passed, bringing Norman back is fair game.

    As for Norman not having been brought back under the best circumstances... True, but that doesn't mean it was an inherently bad decision to bring him back. Besides, with the success of the Raimi film and Ultimate Spider-Man, he probably would have been brought back in 616 anyway.
    I'm a millennial and could take or leave Norman being alive. There weren't that many great stories with him after his resurrection. Bringing back characters just because they are liked isn't an inherently justified decision.

  6. #1761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Ditko's GG was a silver age Joker rip-off personality-wise, with the biggest advantage that he managed to escape everytime (Even then, the first time in ASM#14, Spidey was too tired from dealing with the Hulk and was far more worried about him than GG, the second time in ASM#17. Spidey left the fight because of aunt May, only the third fight in ASM#27 had GG actually escaping) and had slightly more long term plans since he was trying to take over gangs, but still acted as a goofball and had no personal connections with Spidey or Peter, modern Norman doesn't give a damn about long term plans and is a psychopath who likes to torment Peter because he has a mancrush on Peter, and overall causes destruction just because he can.

    Closest thing we had to "Norman wants to take over something" was all the way back in Dark Reign, and he specifically got to that point by avoiding his Goblin impulses to do so, and being cured from the Goblin serum specifically made him capable of thinking long term, to the point post Superior had the gimmick of "Oh now Norman is sane", and then we have Spencer's run that ignored this, since it was implying that the device he made under Ravencroft would cause destruction just because, and he started that before he got the Goblin Serum back.

    If anything, Spectacular GG is a proper modernization of Ditko's GG, and that guy's pretty different from how 616 acts in general.

    Either way, this idea of a Goblin being such a big threat didn't start with Ditko, it started with Romita and that's only because he knows of Spidey's identity, Roderick was a threat who didn't have to rely on that by actually being a strong threat, on top of knowing how to be more pragmatic if the situation asked for it, that makes modern Norman far closer to Roderick than he ever was to either Ditko's or Romita's versions of Norman.



    It doesn't matter how much sense it can make in-universe or not and how much symbolic sense it makes with an unrelated story Norman wasn't part of even minimally, my point is how Spider-Man's world dealt with death more maturely, and ASM#122 was about getting rid of Norman since the "haha I know your secret identity but now I don't because of easy amnesia" got old, he stayed dead for two decades and the world moved on, now suddenly he's back because to hell with consequences, how can you say it doesn't ruin a classic when part of the point of it was to kill him off?

    Norman being alive is fine, we did get good things out of it, but again, his resurrection isn't a 100% good thing, and it ruining his death in ASM#122 is one of the reasons why it's not, same way that if Gwen resurrected would also ruin ASM#121.



    I mean, OMD normalized Peter being single for a while even if it wasn't liked, he even briefly got a kinda liked ship with Carol, while OMD is unlikely to ever be seen as a good thing in general, Peter being single isn't liked more so because post OMD screwed over his character to make him into Spider-Manchild, and the other love interests were annoying.

    Let's put it like this, imagine if Norman is resurrected in Clone Saga, but instead of interesting stuff, all the stories that use him afterwards are terrible, this would make people more annoyed at Clone Saga because now, because of it, a classic villain is resurrected and really lame, and that's how single Peter is viewed, OMD is a bad story, and the stories where Peter is dating someone who isn't MJ are bad, so that gives more reasons to not like OMD, but if post OMD did get stories that are only good because Peter is single, or if it gave him a love interest that is generally seen as better than MJ, then OMD, would still be seen as a terrible story, but a terrible story that gave us a good thing.

    That's the benefit Norman has, asspull resurrection in a terrible story, but hey, Norman had cool stories afterwards, so that's a good thing that came out from that terrible story.
    Even in Dark Reign, people were pointing out how Norman was a ticking time bomb who would go off eventually. No one with common sense took him seriously and he only got his good publicity due to him being lucky enough to kill the Skrull Queen on live television.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post



    Bendis and Slott have sadly brought back the "Goblin formula makes you insane" thing of the 90s show and of the Raimi film. My opinion is that Bendis doesn't like the Green Goblin and/or understand him. He has tried to reinvent Norman Osborn twice now and neither of those versions stuck around.
    Pretty sure that was always the intent of the story in the comics. Norman certainly did not act like a sane rational person.

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    The Green Goblin wasn't depicted as insane in Ditko's run. His origin story in ASM #40 was when he was revealed to have some kind of brain damage from the chemical explosion. I don't think the super strength aspect was properly established until the Hobgoblin storyline in the 1980s.

  9. #1764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    The one interview I'm aware of where Ditko taked about GG, he mentioned drama between Norman and JJ since they were part of the same club, Peter even notices JJ talking with someone and notices JJ is smiling to establish that, unfortunately, once Romita took over, that went nowhere, only two scenes reference that they're friends, and they go nowhere important.

    And Harry being GG's son would cause drama, but we don't know how badly that would affect Peter, 'cause again, by that point they detested each other, and it's possible they would never become friends, or maybe they could at least stop disliking each other, or maybe they'd be friends, either way, we have no way of knowing if Harry would be important, or how important he could be.

    As for Norman being disappointed at Harry, never got that impression, he was an ******* with Harry in ASM#37, but that was after Stromm did an attack on Oscorp and Harry was asking too many questions, afterwards their relationship seems to be largely neutral.

    Don't remember Harry feeling insecure because of Peter's intellect either, any scene where Harry talks about Peter, he acts in a way that is barely any different from Flash, meaning he's being an ******* because he's an *******, and the few times he mentioned Peter's intellect, he seemed more annoyed at how arrogant he thought Peter was than anything:

    (ASM#34 vol 1).
    Norman's opening introduction in ASM #37 is him telling Harry to shut up and ignoring his needs. Introductions like that serve a purpose, know what I mean? If Norman was a decent father, Lee/Ditko wouldn't feel the need to introduce him as being neglectful to his son. First impressions of fictional characters aren't the same as first impressions of real people. If your first impression of a fictional character is that he is a horrible person and father, it's very likely deliberate.

    As for where Harry showed jealousy over Peter, I was referring to ASM #38 where Harry tries to insult Peter's intellect. I mean, that's kinda what rich intellectual snobs do when they meet someone from a poorer background who is just as smart/smarter than them. We see it with MCU Flash too. Part of it is their insecurity and ego talking.

    This would mean that as early as Ditko, Harry was planned as a consistent supporting character in Peter's life (appeared in almost every issue of the Ditko college years) who would be envious of him due to his own daddy issues. The part about Peter and Harry may not have happened under Ditko, sure... but you can make a strong case it didn't happen under Romita either. Peter and Harry always had a shallow, superficial friendship if we think about it. Flash and Randy were much closer friends to Peter than Harry ever was.

    Eh, it's weird with Ditko's Goblin in mind since he only thought that Spidey was a pest, and didn't have the weird insanity he got later on, and Ditko's Norman as a father didn't seem to hate Harry for existing like he started to act post resurrection, so the "I want you to be my son" is weird for either Ditko's or Romita's Norman because he only hated Spidey.

    Yeah being used to whatever status quo makes it easier to accept a change if you never saw how it was before the change, and again, I don't even mind Norman being around, I just think it's worthy to point out how much he changed because of his return.
    I see it as a character expansion rather than a contradiction, and I think it makes sense. Spider-Man and Green Goblin are both tricksters and are both intelligent, so it makes sense for GG to develop a certain level of respect for Spider-Man, especially after getting to know him for a while. One thing that's consistent with the Green Goblin since the Ditko era is that he almost never gets angry or annoyed with Spider-Man's quips. There is a reason for that, and it's because Spider-Man in general challenges Norman to be better (in every way) in the same way that Norman challenges Peter to be better.

    Also didn't Marvel Knights say it was the government who created other villains? Or are you referencing how Otto was used there? 'Cause he didn't create super villains there as far as I remember, and either way, it's something that was more of Roderick's style before Norman also did that, though at least it wasn't done the same way.

    I didn't even know that was ingrained, I just reached that assumption based on how Spectacular GG acts, and him making Harry take the fall is still very much a Roderick thing to do (With the biggest difference is that Roderick having a fall guy is planned, while Norman came up with that on the fly), regardless of it being taken from him or not lol.
    Marvel Knights said Norman had a hand in creating and funding those villains, kinda like in Spectacular Spider-Man.

    Also, don't all psychopaths use people? I mean, Norman and Roderick are both psychopaths. I don't know if any psychopath has a monopoly on that.

    I think a lot of the myth that Norman took from Roderick comes from Hobgoblin, in essence, being the first modern take on the Green Goblin. I mean, he kinda was. So it makes sense why maybe it would have seemed like that for a while.

    I'm pretty sure that only happened in ASM#17, any other time he seemed to just react to GG showing up, but correct me if I'm wrong.
    Correct.

    He was introduced in ASM#14, and showed up a few times and only ASM#27 really started to make him look big, so the problem wasn't how late he showed up, but how long it took for him to look dangerous, but yeah, considering that Norman became an actual character in ASM#37, and seemed to quickly take over ASM as a villain (ASM#37 and #38 aren't continuing each other's story and Norman shows up in both doing shady ****, that's very noticeable), it's possible that he could become a far bigger threat afterwards, maybe even before ASM#40.

    There was an intent to a certain extent for Otto to be a big villain, he's the first one to have a very clean win against Spidey, he formed the Sinister Six, and was the Master Planner, so while I find dubious that he wasn't supposed to be an archenemy, he was at the very least meant to be above everyone else.
    Agreed. The timing with Ditko leaving just before the big Green Goblin reveal was unfortunate, and it sadly paved the way for more myths, like the debunked idea that Ditko didn't want Norman to be the Goblin.

    Ock was definitely meant to be one of the big bads, that much is clear. I have no idea if that was the initial intent with Ock, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Still, as early as ASM #14, it's clear from the way that issue hypes up GG that Stan and Steve wanted the Green Goblin to be Peter's ultimate big bad. So maybe they initially designed Ock for that role but later changed their minds when Steve came up with the Green Goblin, who knows.

    If we follow that logic, then it means that after specific plot points were done, Gwen could be resurrected without a problem.
    There are reasons why Gwen's resurrection would be more superfluous and thematically damaging than Norman's resurrection.

    The first is that Conway killed off Gwen because he found her bland and preferred MJ, and a huge portion of the fans at that time felt the same (and still do). Gwen was never anywhere near as interesting as Norman, so her ressurection will always be more controversial based on that alone.

    Second, Gwen doesn't serve much thematic purpose with MJ in the picture. Her death was the beginning of the Peter-MJ relationship and developed both of their characters. Thus her revival would always be viewed as a regression and a hindrance to the pairing that most of the fans want to see. And yeah, there was a period After OMD where Peter and MJ weren't together, and maybe bringing Gwen back during that period would have worked, but the BND team never took advantage of it and now Peter is back with MJ again. Thus Gwen is now redundant again.

    Third, Norman is more like MJ in the sense that they were both conceptualized from the very beginning. MJ was always intended to be "the one" by Ditko, and Norman was always intended to be "the" archenemy". They may have appeared only in the college years, but they were thought of in the high school years. Gwen as a character was conceptualized later than both.

    Part of the point of ASM#121 and 122 was to kill off Gwen and Norman, having one or both resurrected at all ruins that specific point, while Norman taking so long to return made it less damaging, again, it still kinda ruins a classic story.
    I think I get the disconnect. You're saying Conway intended to kill Norman off, therefore his ressurection ruins the story?

    I mean, now we are getting into 'Death of the Author'. Author intent doesn't mean or matter much in how the viewers perceive a piece of art. In the case of Conway killing Norman, it matters even less because Norman's death wasn't meant as this big thematic thing the way Gwen's death was to Peter and MJ.

    The point is that while Norman is a big deal, and having him around is better than not, he's not such a necessity that not having him at all would be that noticeable if he never came back, of course, there was a vacuum, and they the intent behind Roderick was blatantly to have another Goblin, but we also got Venom fill that vacuum, and Otto on occasion did something big too
    Generally agreed that there are too many ressurections in Spider-Man and in comics in general. Fair point that Norman's ressurection fits that annoying pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm a millennial and could take or leave Norman being alive. There weren't that many great stories with him after his resurrection. Bringing back characters just because they are liked isn't an inherently justified decision.
    Sorry, didn't mean to generalize. Just meant that it seems to be one of the factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Pretty sure that was always the intent of the story in the comics. Norman certainly did not act like a sane rational person.
    I think Lee brought this up, but he was sane and rational until ASM#40 at the earliest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I think I liked the idea of a legacy of the Green Goblin more than I've ever actually liked Norman himself. Norman killed Gwen and then he died. Then Peter is constantly dealing with the latest Goblin or the latest whoever that had connections to the Goblin.

    It made Norman feel important without having to change who the character actually was.
    Huh, yeah that is a cool angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Even in Dark Reign, people were pointing out how Norman was a ticking time bomb who would go off eventually. No one with common sense took him seriously and he only got his good publicity due to him being lucky enough to kill the Skrull Queen on live television.
    Well, Marvel civilians are overall even dumber than real life's, so... .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The Green Goblin wasn't depicted as insane in Ditko's run. His origin story in ASM #40 was when he was revealed to have some kind of brain damage from the chemical explosion. I don't think the super strength aspect was properly established until the Hobgoblin storyline in the 1980s.
    Norman managed to knock down Spidey with a single punch in ASM#37, it was a surprise attack, but super strength could be the reason Spidey was knocked down, Spidey even thinks afterwards he was hit by debris:




  12. #1767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Norman's opening introduction in ASM #37 is him telling Harry to shut up and ignoring his needs. Introductions like that serve a purpose, know what I mean? If Norman was a decent father, Lee/Ditko wouldn't feel the need to introduce him as being neglectful to his son. First impressions of fictional characters aren't the same as first impressions of real people. If your first impression of a fictional character is that he is a horrible person and father, it's very likely deliberate.
    Well, on the same panels he's telling Harry to shut up, he's also thinking that Harry must not find out about Stromm, and with how Harry kept asking questions, wanting him to stop asking them is natural.

    He was likely a shitty father, but it's hard to grasp how much he might be, 'cause again, after this, when Harry isn't asking questions about an attack, their relationship seems neutral, and Flash even points out in ASM#38 that Norman is nice.

    As for where Harry showed jealousy over Peter, I was referring to ASM #38 where Harry tries to insult Peter's intellect. I mean, that's kinda what rich intellectual snobs do when they meet someone from a poorer background who is just as smart/smarter than them. We see it with MCU Flash too. Part of it is their insecurity and ego talking.
    The way he mocks Peter sounds more like annoyance at him thinking that Peter is arrogant, Harry says that quite clearly in ASM#31:



    And he's not even the only one with such an opinion about Peter, everyone else was thinking that peter was an arrogant *******.

    This would mean that as early as Ditko, Harry was planned as a consistent supporting character in Peter's life (appeared in almost every issue of the Ditko college years) who would be envious of him due to his own daddy issues. The part about Peter and Harry may not have happened under Ditko, sure...
    It can be hard to say how he would develop Harry and the rest 'cause, let's face it, Ditko's run had meh supporting characters, with the exception of JJ and Foswel, Flash was just a joke, Liz suddenly changed and disappeared, Betty was a girlfriend who mostly only created bad drama... While Harry would likely have his own story because he's Norman's son, how close he'd become with Peter is anyone's guess, since Harry was just being an ******* and Peter only really considered to give Gwen a chance on occasion.

    Whatever Ditko could end up doing, we won't know, and it's arrogant to assume we know what would happen, Ditko did not have an established path to follow, whatever clichés we have about Spider-Man weren't defined, so again, it's anyone's guess.

    but you can make a strong case it didn't happen under Romita either. Peter and Harry always had a shallow, superficial friendship if we think about it. Flash and Randy were much closer friends to Peter than Harry ever was.
    Yeah, they just lived together, but Harry became more annoyed with Peter over time, and that was before drug trilogy or Norman's death lol.

    I see it as a character expansion rather than a contradiction, and I think it makes sense. Spider-Man and Green Goblin are both tricksters and are both intelligent, so it makes sense for GG to develop a certain level of respect for Spider-Man, especially after getting to know him for a while. One thing that's consistent with the Green Goblin since the Ditko era is that he almost never gets angry or annoyed with Spider-Man's quips. There is a reason for that, and it's because Spider-Man in general challenges Norman to be better (in every way) in the same way that Norman challenges Peter to be better.
    He still showed little more than annoyance at Spidey, even was trying to kill him 'cause he saw Spidey as an obstacle, and on the few interactions he had with Harry, it didn't seem that he hated Harry for existing, him getting this "I want this spider-dude to be my son" is really pushing with what Ditko showed.

    Marvel Knights said Norman had a hand in creating and funding those villains, kinda like in Spectacular Spider-Man.
    Ah, alright.

    Also, don't all psychopaths use people? I mean, Norman and Roderick are both psychopaths. I don't know if any psychopath has a monopoly on that.
    I think a lot of the myth that Norman took from Roderick comes from Hobgoblin, in essence, being the first modern take on the Green Goblin. I mean, he kinda was. So it makes sense why maybe it would have seemed like that for a while.[/quote]

    Sure but, if Norman is doing something that looks like he's ripping-off the rip-off, it's gonna be pointed out, specially if he never did anything like that before lol.

    Ock was definitely meant to be one of the big bads, that much is clear. I have no idea if that was the initial intent with Ock, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Still, as early as ASM #14, it's clear from the way that issue hypes up GG that Stan and Steve wanted the Green Goblin to be Peter's ultimate big bad. So maybe they initially designed Ock for that role but later changed their minds when Steve came up with the Green Goblin, who knows.
    I dunno about that, even after GG was introduced, Otto was the one who created Sinister Six, and Otto was the Master Planner, even if there were plans for GG to be an archenemy, he possibly wasn't going to be the only one, unless Otto all of a sudden stopped being a big deal.

    There are reasons why Gwen's resurrection would be more superfluous and thematically damaging than Norman's resurrection.

    The first is that Conway killed off Gwen because he found her bland and preferred MJ, and a huge portion of the fans at that time felt the same (and still do). Gwen was never anywhere near as interesting as Norman, so her ressurection will always be more controversial based on that alone.

    Second, Gwen doesn't serve much thematic purpose with MJ in the picture. Her death was the beginning of the Peter-MJ relationship and developed both of their characters. Thus her revival would always be viewed as a regression and a hindrance to the pairing that most of the fans want to see. And yeah, there was a period After OMD where Peter and MJ weren't together, and maybe bringing Gwen back during that period would have worked, but the BND team never took advantage of it and now Peter is back with MJ again. Thus Gwen is now redundant again.
    How characters acted originally has little relevance in what they become after being resurrected.

    Even if you don't agree with Norman being an example of character being changed post resurrection, we have Bucky, who had his past retconned and he became a gun using guy instead of a Robin rip-off.

    Gwen could easily have a case like that if she was resurrected, becoming a very different character to try to improve her, it'd be really dumb, regressive and even childish to bring her back, but it's been done before, and it's not like her resurrecting would undo Peter's and MJ's relationship, the same way Norman's resurrection didn't undo the bullshit Harry and other Goblins did.

    Not saying that I want that to happen, but we can get regressive resurrections in comic books that change who the character was, and hell, we have the pretty infamous example of this with Barry Allen, and maybe a resurrected Gwen could be like him, or she could become an actual character who can have a solid competition with MJ as a love interest, or anything in between, like resurrecting and being useless.

    Third, Norman is more like MJ in the sense that they were both conceptualized from the very beginning. MJ was always intended to be "the one" by Ditko, and Norman was always intended to be "the" archenemy". They may have appeared only in the college years, but they were thought of in the high school years. Gwen as a character was conceptualized later than both.
    I really have doubts about MJ really being made to be "the one" when Gwen was in the way, and unlike Betty and Liz, she at least seemed to consider something must be going on with Peter's life for him to act that way.

    Saying with certainty what Ditko was planning is too much, specially since plans change (Like how JJ was nice early on), so we can't really know if MJ was planned to be "the one", because her and Peter missing each other like that seemed like little more than a running gag, and even if that was the original plan with her, what guarantees it would remain that way? What if MJ was even more of an obnoxious girlfriend than Betty and fans hated her? She looked nice in ASM#25, but Betty was an alright girlfriend at first too, and look what she became.

    We don't know what would happen, and we can't know, anything after ASM#38 are guesses, with few exceptions like Norman always being planned to be GG, and possibly some drama between him and JJ, and while we can make guesses that sound likely, ultimately, they're still just guesses.

    I think I get the disconnect. You're saying Conway intended to kill Norman off, therefore his ressurection ruins the story?

    I mean, now we are getting into 'Death of the Author'. Author intent doesn't mean or matter much in how the viewers perceive a piece of art. In the case of Conway killing Norman, it matters even less because Norman's death wasn't meant as this big thematic thing the way Gwen's death was to Peter and MJ.
    It got rid of the one guy who knew Spidey's secret identity, it started Harry's downfall, and the world at the time handled death with actual maturity most times, him dying and staying dead was a big deal, and his resurrection ruins that aspect, not just his death, but the way Spidey's own world used to work.

    We might have to agree to disagree here, we both have strong opinions about this, I even reached character limit a few times with how long this discussion is lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post

    I think a lot of the myth that Norman took from Roderick comes from Hobgoblin, in essence, being the first modern take on the Green Goblin. I mean, he kinda was. So it makes sense why maybe it would have seemed like that for a while.
    Sure but, if Norman is doing something that looks like he's ripping-off the rip-off, it's gonna be pointed out, specially if he never did anything like that before lol. [/quote]


    I tend to believe that myth shows up because of the Animated Series of the 90's. Too many people can't separate the comics as the source material and the tv shows and movies that are mere 'interpretations'.

    In the cartoon, Hobgoblin came first Green Goblin showed up a couple seasons later. Norman may have created Hobby's gear, but it still felt like he was the knock off when he used the glider.

  14. #1769
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Sure but, if Norman is doing something that looks like he's ripping-off the rip-off, it's gonna be pointed out, specially if he never did anything like that before lol.

    I tend to believe that myth shows up because of the Animated Series of the 90's. Too many people can't separate the comics as the source material and the tv shows and movies that are mere 'interpretations'.

    In the cartoon, Hobgoblin came first Green Goblin showed up a couple seasons later. Norman may have created Hobby's gear, but it still felt like he was the knock off when he used the glider.
    The TV show also showed that the firs Green Goblin costume was actually a damaged Hobgoblin costume too.

    It read more to me as not Normie being a knock off, but more like replacing an inferior incomplete version.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    And the fact they brought in a carbon copy to fill his vacuum (Hobgoblin) as well as several other failed Green Goblins
    Now hold on. I was with you up until this point.
    I think Hobgoblin is distinct enough to be his own character at this point. As far as these other Green Goblins, I'd say them too, depending on who exactly is being referred to here.

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