Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Also on the flipside is we've gone through enough Spider-Man interpretations that none of them and their specific takes are seen as that definitive, particularly the MCU which keeps trying to reinvent the wheel.

Fair point that. ITSV was the worst thing to happen to Tom Holland from a brand perspective. It took from him forever the idea of being the definitive Spider-Man for a generation of kids. Now he's just "a" Spider-Man.

I don't think being based around Ann Margret should negate what are her defining physical features, especially given how much of her personality they represent in my opinion.

Fair. I'd say however that you can't keep drawing on that well of '60s nostalgia for good without taking into account how things changed (that said this is only an issue if they make the choice to keep reintroducing the characters in high school and try not to age up the characters...if you age up the characters, not an issue, they can be their timeless selves).

This reminds me what I like so much about the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon's take on MJ compared to some of the recent depictions of MJ in other media, as she's likeable, sassy, normal, with a dash of that vivaciousness and spontaneity that made the character popular, and she has a personality that isn't so defined by being a generic reporter.

She may not be a party girl masking all her insecurities and doubts but she's actually fun. '

Haven't followed the latest season but I am glad to hear that.

Lois has always been meant to be a glamorous female reporter, even Dana Delany believed that when she took up the role in TAS.

As an actress that's how she's interpreting the character (which is fair), but Lois wasn't considered glamorous in the early years. The big joke especially in the '50s and '60s in those Lois Lane comics which made her a scheming harpy who wanted to get into Superman's pants was that she was some kind of dumb reporter who couldn't figure out her coworker was Superman despite his lack of disguise. Obviously the way artists can draw women in the '30s and '40s (especially those intended to be glamorous types) was limited to some extent (comics artists weren't as capable as cheesecake poster artists of that time for instance), but Lois was drawn with plain ordinary features by and large. Compare that to Will Eisner's The Spirit which was the adventure strip with the really glamorous women in that time period.

[WebSlingWonder]

Fair point that. ITSV was the worst thing to happen to Tom Holland from a brand perspective. It took from him forever the idea of being the definitive Spider-Man for a generation of kids. Now he's just "a" Spider-Man.

Yeah, one wonders why Sony would undercut their own live-action Spider-Man like that.

[PCN24454]

Yeah, one wonders why Sony would undercut their own live-action Spider-Man like that.

Was this supposed to be sarcasm?

[Spider-Tiger]

The flipside to that is the live action movies don't go far in establishing her as Peter's true love...first we had Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane, then Emma Stone's Gwen, now Zendaya's MJ who is Michelle Jones but called by her initials in the second movie forward...but that gives a sense that Peter's love interest can be just anyone, and not one particular someone. I'd rather have Mary Jane featured in the movies under her name and with aspects of her story and importance in mythos acknowledged than for her to be frozen forever as Romita Sr's crush/ode to Ann Margret (who if people know today, if at all, it's for Kristen Wiig's spoof of her in SNL...let's be real).

Despite the Webb films and the MCU films, I think the Raimi films (combined with video games and multiple tv shows) did a lot to establish Mary Jane as Spider-Man's "true love" in the minds of general audiences (and ITSV doubles down on that). I think a lot of people just view Zendaya's MJ as another version of Mary Jane rather than a completely separate character. The Webb films didn't leave that much of a mark on pop culture, and will probably be the last time we'll see Gwen Stacy featured as a love interest thanks to Spider-Gwen.

To reiterate what I said in my defense of PS4's Mary Jane, I am a "don't let perfection be the enemy of good" kinda guy. You aren't gonna get the perfect 1:1 version of Spider-Man and the characters in your mind, and if you get it it's not a given that the adaptation will give you the best and most fulfilling stories of it as well. Zenday's MJ flies the banner of the character well, as does the PS4 version, and both are faithful to aspects of the character. Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane was actually a pretty sound take on the character in terms of casting and performance but the writing (especially from the second movie onwards) wasn't there for her (but that's true of the Raimi movies in general, from SM-2 onwards).

I agree with this to a certain extent. I'd rather MJ be featured than replaced by another character, but I also don't like the idea of "Mary Jane" becoming a placeholder for Spider-Man's love interest. That sort of thing may work for someone like Gwen Stacy who was never well-developed in the first place, but it's regressive for Mary Jane.

[PCN24454]

Despite the Webb films and the MCU films, I think the Raimi films (combined with video games and multiple tv shows) did a lot to establish Mary Jane as Spider-Man's "true love" in the minds of general audiences (and ITSV doubles down on that). I think a lot of people just view Zendaya's MJ as another version of Mary Jane rather than a completely separate character. The Webb films didn't leave that much of a mark on pop culture, and will probably be the last time we'll see Gwen Stacy featured as a love interest thanks to Spider-Gwen.

I don't know. There are still a lot of people on this forum that explicitly call here Michelle or Zendaya to differentiate her from MJ in a very passive-aggressive way.

I agree with this to a certain extent. I'd rather MJ be featured than replaced by another character, but I also don't like the idea of "Mary Jane" becoming a placeholder for Spider-Man's love interest. That sort of thing may work for someone like Gwen Stacy who was never well-developed in the first place, but it's regressive for Mary Jane.

Not to mention how extremely annoyed I am at "Gwen isn't as developed as MJ" comments. That's like saying a middle schooler is dumb for never taking Calculus. Of course, MJ has more development. She's just been around that long!

[Spider-Tiger]

I don't know. There are still a lot of people on this forum that explicitly call here Michelle or Zendaya to differentiate her from MJ in a very passive-aggressive way.

Yeah, but that's mostly in comic book circles.

Not to mention how extremely annoyed I am at "Gwen isn't as developed as MJ" comments. That's like saying a middle schooler is dumb for never taking Calculus. Of course, MJ has more development. She's just been around that long!

It really has little to do with time in my opinion. Gwen wasn't developed because Stan Lee wasn't particularly good at writing female protagonists. She was in the book for 7 years, and was featured more than Mary Jane at the time. MJ became developed under Conway's pen in the 70s.

[Lukmendes]

That's Ultimate Peter (esp. the Iron Man angle).

Was it? I know Fury said he'd someday make Peter work for SHIELD, but I don't really remember if anything was actually done to mentor him, Ultimate Fallout even has aunt May calling out the other heroes by saying they did nothing to actually train him, though she does say that he looked up to the other heroes.

Maybe...although he did invent the webbing and stuff.



Thought that was more "realism," since it's always been a degree of suspension of disbelief that Peter could get such a nice costume on his own.

That'd ridiculously arbitrary if it was the intention, kid invents the webbing by himself, but having a nice-looking costume is going too far?

As an actress that's how she's interpreting the character (which is fair), but Lois wasn't considered glamorous in the early years. The big joke especially in the '50s and '60s in those Lois Lane comics which made her a scheming harpy who wanted to get into Superman's pants was that she was some kind of dumb reporter who couldn't figure out her coworker was Superman despite his lack of disguise.

She actually thought Clark was Supes all the damn time, and he had to keep coming up with ways to outsmart her otherwise she would reveal his secret identity to everyone, and even after countless times he "proved" he wasn't Superman, she still thought Clark was Supes.

There was even an issue with a flashback where Clark or her recently joined the Daily Planet, Clark was making up evidence to prove he wasn't Supes, but she didn't even bother to check it because she didn't believe Clark could be Supes, which he noted how different the situation was currently.

Not to mention how extremely annoyed I am at "Gwen isn't as developed as MJ" comments. That's like saying a middle schooler is dumb for never taking Calculus. Of course, MJ has more development. She's just been around that long!

While comparing both is unfair, Gwen did have over 80 issues to get, something, but she got nothing, hell, after becoming Peter's girlfriend she got even less personality than before, which sucks for her, a lot.

[WebSlingWonder]

Was this supposed to be sarcasm?

No, it wasn't.

[TheCape]

Was it? I know Fury said he'd someday make Peter work for SHIELD, but I don't really remember if anything was actually done to mentor him, Ultimate Fallout even has aunt May calling out the other heroes by saying they did nothing to actually train him, though she does say that he looked up to the other heroes.



That'd ridiculously arbitrary if it was the intention, kid invents the webbing by himself, but having a nice-looking costume is going too far?



She actually thought Clark was Supes all the damn time, and he had to keep coming up with ways to outsmart her otherwise she would reveal his secret identity to everyone, and even after countless times he "proved" he wasn't Superman, she still thought Clark was Supes.

There was even an issue with a flashback where Clark or her recently joined the Daily Planet, Clark was making up evidence to prove he wasn't Supes, but she didn't even bother to check it because she didn't believe Clark could be Supes, which he noted how different the situation was currently.



While comparing both is unfair, Gwen did have over 80 issues to get, something, but she got nothing, hell, after becoming Peter's girlfriend she got even less personality than before, which sucks for her, a lot.

I think that it was added later (i assume a bit before Ultimatum or around the time of Ultimate Comics Marvel) because in the first sixty something issues Peter doesn't really talk much about other heroes (beyond that time that Iron Man beat Rhino before he could get there), but yeah Ultimate Peter also admired Iron Man to an extent, thought not to the degree of Holland Spider-Man.

[Lukmendes]

I think that it was added later (i assume a bit before Ultimatum or around the time of Ultimate Comics Marvel) because in the first sixty something issues Peter doesn't really talk much about other heroes (beyond that time that Iron Man beat Rhino before he could get there), but yeah Ultimate Peter also admired Iron Man to an extent, thought not to the degree of Holland Spider-Man.

Yeah I don't really remember Peter talking about like he cared about the other heroes that much, I do remember he once went to the X-Mansion when the X-Men invited him though, so I guess something is there, but as far as I remember, nothing much was talked about, if at all.

If it was added later, at the latest it was when Cap was a douche to him, if that was the case then it's Bendis being lazy by adding this right before he "dies" to amplify the tragedy.

But hey, maybe it was there before and I forgot, who knows.

[TheCape]

Yeah I don't really remember Peter talking about like he cared about the other heroes that much, I do remember he once went to the X-Mansion when the X-Men invited him though, so I guess something is there, but as far as I remember, nothing much was talked about, if at all.

If it was added later, at the latest it was when Cap was a douche to him, if that was the case then it's Bendis being lazy by adding this right before he "dies" to amplify the tragedy.

But hey, maybe it was there before and I forgot, who knows.

I read the first 65 issued recently, from the origin to Carnage and besides the whole thing with the X-Men that you mentioned, he doesn't really talk much about then beyond saying "oh and these people are around", but hey with my luck maybe right i after i stopped reading is where is established lol.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

The narration wasn't hyping her up at all, it was all aunt May, Peter specifically never cared about meeting her, her presence was only briefly used for a few short moments and didn't mess with the plot much, nor did they get much focus, and the whole thing of her face not being shown was a joke they came up with.

The love triangle could've been played differently if Ditko remained, but nothing really indicates she would be seen as the main girl, since her lack of presence, and even how rarely she was mentioned, don't do much to hint what they were actually planning.

It is clear if we read the Lee/Ditko issues that the narrative was setting her up. Here is an example of the narrative hyping her up from ASM #38 (see the fourth screens hot - too big to post here):
http://berkeleyplaceblog.com/2020/06...al-issue-1966/

I couldn't find the next panel here, but in the comic it's MJ driving her car away with no dialogue lines from Aunt May - only narration lines in the background.

Furthermore, Aunt May is not separate from the narrative.

Maybe MCU Peter still close enough to his character concept that he's seen as another version of himself instead of a whitewashed Miles? I mean, Ned-who's-really-Ganke is only real concrete Miles thing about MCU Peter.

Peter's attitude and lack of confidence from growing up in a world of superheroes is also Miles-esque. I should clarify that "he stole from Miles" is a simplification. More accurately, Peter stole from the story of Miles. Miles goes to an elitist school and deals with classism more directly than Peter did. He lives with a young parent and the dynamic he has with May is closer to the one Miles had with his parents than the one Peter had with his older, unconventional parent figures. Most importantly, Miles always had the opposite problem as Peter - he struggles with confidence but not with doing the right thing.

In the MCU's defense, none of this was enough to make Miles that distinct, and Bendis' Miles was to a huge extent a black clone of Peter. But the very few differences I brought up were at least a good starting point to differentiate Miles' story from Peter's story. They should have expanded on the things that made Miles' story different instead of just letting MCU Peter absorb them. By doing the latter, the MCU put up barriers to eventually doing Miles (and had Miles not gotten the attention he did in the last two years, telling Miles' story through Peter might have done long-term damage to Miles and cause him to fall into obscurity).

Yeah, one wonders why Sony would undercut their own live-action Spider-Man like that.

It's still a win for them as they now have two box office franchises to help make them revenue.

Fair point that. ITSV was the worst thing to happen to Tom Holland from a brand perspective. It took from him forever the idea of being the definitive Spider-Man for a generation of kids. Now he's just "a" Spider-Man.

Even worse than the premise of ITSV, the success of Miles in the past two years has kinda hurt the main argument of defense in favor of MCU Spider-Man. That argument was that the MCU is doing something different to keep things fresh, and that if you don't like that you can always check out other mediums which still feature Peter Parker AWKH (as we know him). But MCU Spider-Man doesn't exactly have a monopoly anymore on being fresh, does it? MCU Spider-Man was heavily based on Bendis' Miles specifically, which is now considered not as fresh and original as ITSV's version, Saladin Ahmed's take, and soon-to-be Insomniac's version. By the end of 2020, a consumer can go to literally any medium but film and that medium can spoil them with Peter Parker AKWH and an even fresher take on a new Spider-Man than what the MCU was going for. They can have their Spidey-cake and eat it too literally anywhere except in the MCU.

Holland's Spider-Man is in a lot of ways MCU Hawkeye all over again. Disney/Marvel played it safe and based their Hawkeye on the Ultimate version which was just on its way out the door in the zeitgeist. Shortly after that Matt Fraction's Hawkeye came out and was a huge success. A decade later, 616 Hawkeye is still booming while the MCU struggles to help its Hawkeye stay afloat all because they made the wrong calculation with his characterization early on. They may have made the same mistake with Spider-Man - only time will tell but so far the details are the same.

[Lukmendes]

I read the first 65 issued recently, from the origin to Carnage and besides the whole thing with the X-Men that you mentioned, he doesn't really talk much about then beyond saying "oh and these people are around", but hey with my luck maybe right i after i stopped reading is where is established lol.

Well, issue#66 is that story where Peter and Wolverine switch bodies, and #67 even ends with him cussing at the X-Men:

https://i.imgur.com/TIt0luj.jpg

So if anything, you stopped a bit before he really gets annoyed with at least the X-Men lol.

Also, reminder that Ultimate Wolverine tried to commit statutory rape, and rape by deception on MJ:

https://i.imgur.com/TnjrzEo.jpg

Fucking Ultimate Wolverine is a professional piece of ****, not even the only time he tries one of those lol.

It is clear if we read the Lee/Ditko issues that the narrative was setting her up. Here is an example of the narrative hyping her up from ASM #38 (see the fourth screens hot - too big to post here):
http://berkeleyplaceblog.com/2020/06...al-issue-1966/

I couldn't find the next panel here, but in the comic it's MJ driving her car away with no dialogue lines from Aunt May - only narration lines in the background.

Peter didn't care about MJ here and was thinking it was Betty, how's that hyping her up when MJ is little more than a footnote that Peter doesn't care about?

Furthermore, Aunt May is not separate from the narrative.

She's not, but she's only one part of it, and it's only her that makes MJ sound like such a big deal, which, doesn't do MJ any favors since aunt May also thought Otto was a good man lol.

If this were more like Parallel Lives where even Peter's point of view indirectly sets her up, I'd say the narration was really hyping her up, but all Ditko and Lee did here was make a running gag where MJ and Peter miss each other and her face is not shown, which is not an indication that she was being planned to be a big deal as a love interest, specially with how infrequent it was, how little importance it always had, and how uncaring Peter always is with the whole thing.

And I'm not saying that Ditko never planned for MJ to be a big deal, maybe he did, but the point here is that looking at his issues for evidence doesn't really point towards that way, as MJ comes across as a running gag.

Peter's attitude and lack of confidence from growing up in a world of superheroes is also Miles-esque. I should clarify that "he stole from Miles" is a simplification. More accurately, Peter stole from the story of Miles. Miles goes to an elitist school and deals with classism more directly than Peter did. He lives with a young parent and the dynamic he has with May is closer to the one Miles had with his parents than the one Peter had with his older, unconventional parent figures. Most importantly, Miles always had the opposite problem as Peter - he struggles with confidence but not with doing the right thing.

In the MCU's defense, none of this was enough to make Miles that distinct, and Bendis' Miles was to a huge extent a black clone of Peter. But the very few differences I brought up were at least a good starting point to differentiate Miles' story from Peter's story. They should have expanded on the things that made Miles' story different instead of just letting MCU Peter absorb them. By doing the latter, the MCU put up barriers to eventually doing Miles (and had Miles not gotten the attention he did in the last two years, telling Miles' story through Peter might have done long-term damage to Miles and cause him to fall into obscurity).

Doubt it'd cause him to fall into obscurity, but without Spider-Verse, general public really wouldn't be aware of what kind of character he is, and MCU wouldn't help, maybe we'd even get the mistaken belief that Miles stole from MCU Peter lol.

Holland's Spider-Man is in a lot of ways MCU Hawkeye all over again. Disney/Marvel played it safe and based their Hawkeye on the Ultimate version which was just on its way out the door in the zeitgeist. Shortly after that Matt Fraction's Hawkeye came out and was a huge success. A decade later, 616 Hawkeye is still booming while the MCU struggles to help its Hawkeye stay afloat all because they made the wrong calculation with his characterization early on. They may have made the same mistake with Spider-Man - only time will tell.

Wait, costume aside, that's supposed to be Ultimate Hawkeye? Because he has none of that version's more violent characterization, hell MCU Hawkeye is rather basic... Guess if they were going for that, they got barely anything from either version and just, didn't make an interesting character.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Peter didn't care about MJ here and was thinking it was Betty, how's that hyping her up when MJ is little more than a footnote that Peter doesn't care about?



She's not, but she's only one part of it, and it's only her that makes MJ sound like such a big deal, which, doesn't do MJ any favors since aunt May also thought Otto was a good man lol.

If this were more like Parallel Lives where even Peter's point of view indirectly sets her up, I'd say the narration was really hyping her up, but all Ditko and Lee did here was make a running gag where MJ and Peter miss each other and her face is not shown, which is not an indication that she was being planned to be a big deal as a love interest, specially with how infrequent it was, how little importance it always had, and how uncaring Peter always is with the whole thing.

And I'm not saying that Ditko never planned for MJ to be a big deal, maybe he did, but the point here is that looking at his issues for evidence doesn't really point towards that way, as MJ comes across as a running gag.

Couple of things:

1. Peter not being interested by that point doesn't mean the narrative wasn't setting her up. By your definition, every version which introduced MJ late wasn't setting her up as eventually being with Peter just because Peter at first wasn't interested (Spider-Man TAS, The Spectacular Spider-Man etc.).

2. The context between Aunt May wanting Peter to meet MJ and her thinking Doc Ock was a good man are completely different.

3. Gags are supposed to be funny. There was nothing intended as funny in the panel I linked. Yes there are other scenes where it's played as a gag, but that whole scene in 38 is played as serious. MJ tells Aunt May she *eventually* wants to meet Peter and Ditko hides her face in the shadows the same way he did with Norman. All of that is foreshadowing.

Doubt it'd cause him to fall into obscurity, but without Spider-Verse, general public really wouldn't be aware of what kind of character he is, and MCU wouldn't help, maybe we'd even get the mistaken belief that Miles stole from MCU Peter lol.

This is exactly what I meant.

Wait, costume aside, that's supposed to be Ultimate Hawkeye? Because he has none of that version's more violent characterization, hell MCU Hawkeye is rather basic... Guess if they were going for that, they got barely anything from either version and just, didn't make an interesting character.

The costume, family angle, and reserved personality are all Ultimate. Obviously it's not a 1:1 replica since the Ultimates were jerks. But Renner's Hawkeye is a more good-guy version of Ultimate Hawkeye, yes.

[Lukmendes]

Couple of things:

1. Peter not being interested by that point doesn't mean the narrative wasn't setting her up. By your definition, every version which introduced MJ late wasn't setting her up as eventually being with Peter just because Peter at first wasn't interested (Spider-Man TAS, The Spectacular Spider-Man etc.).

I don't remember 90's cartoon, but Spectacular at least had Peter wondering about her, even had the joke of her actually being ugly since aunt May foccused in the "wonderful personality", so there was a bit more going on there, even if it still does little to make her look like a big love interest (Which probably was intentional, since MJ herself is not interested, and she was planned to be the final love interest, but only in later seasons).

I also pointed out it wasn't just Peter, MJ's presence feels like little more than a footnote than anything else overall, if Peter didn't care but the narration made it look like she was gonna be something big, then that would make her be actually hyped up.

2. The context between Aunt May wanting Peter to meet MJ and her thinking Doc Ock was a good man are completely different.

Yeah, but it can give the impression that her opinion isn't exactly reliable lol.

3. Gags are supposed to be funny. There was nothing intended as funny in the panel I linked. Yes there are other scenes where it's played as a gag, but that whole scene in 38 is played as serious. MJ tells Aunt May she *eventually* wants to meet Peter and Ditko hides her face in the shadows the same way he did with Norman. All of that is foreshadowing.

Yeah, that scene wasn't funny, but it wasn't MJ who made it serious since Peter's mind was elsewhere.

And her face still being hidden in #38 is to just keep the gag going on for longer, ASM#25 did the same, where Betty and Liz comment about how beautiful she is, so it's to keep the reader wondering what she looks like, and to not learn it before Peter.

We're running in circles here, and I'm getting bored, I already made my points, repeatedly, and you made yours, and if neither of us is gonna bring a new point, let's just drop it 'cause we won't convince each other.

The costume, family angle, and reserved personality are all Ultimate. Obviously it's not a 1:1 replica since the Ultimates were jerks. But Renner's Hawkeye is a more good-guy version of Ultimate Hawkeye, yes.

Right, forgot about his family in MCU, shows how much I know lol.