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  1. #1741
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    Cyber Hobgoblin is my favorite iteration of he character.

    Demonic Hobgoblin is my second favorite.

    Also, I miss Jason Macendale in the role. He was a bit of a loser by design, but interesting and fun to read. Both Roderick Kingsley and Phil Ulrich are/were boring.

  2. #1742
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    I'm annoyed that the Soap Opera elements of the series are so popular.

    Spider-Man as a whole shouldn't have a personal relationship with his villains.

  3. #1743
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Green Goblin should never stay dead.

  4. #1744
    Spectacular Member Reilly's Avatar
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    Tobey Maguire is actually the worst Peter Parker/Spider-Man. I like him only because of nostalgia. Other than that, there's nothing.

  5. #1745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    Tobey Maguire is actually the worst Peter Parker/Spider-Man. I like him only because of nostalgia. Other than that, there's nothing.
    Co-signed. Then again, I don’t think there’s really been a good Peter Parker on screen. All three live-action Peters (I guess four if you include Nick Hammond) have their shortcomings or deviate too far from how Peter seems in the comics. None have captured Peter’s essence like Hugh Jackman embodies Wolverine for example (except for the height thing…) or Patrick Stewart seems like Professor X, or Ryan Reynolds seems like Deadpool (hey the X-cinematic universe is pretty good at this casting thing…)

  6. #1746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    Tobey Maguire is actually the worst Peter Parker/Spider-Man. I like him only because of nostalgia. Other than that, there's nothing.
    Co-signed. Tobey's Peter and Spider-Man seems more based on traditional nerd heroes like Clark Kent than on Peter Parker.

    Which, honestly, is fine in theory. Not everything has to be like the comics. The problem is when Tobey is used as the standard for how Peter Parker is/should be and the other actors are criticized for being different. It would be like if fans of Ultimate Spider-Man joined editorial in insisting that Peter should always be in high school.

  7. #1747
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Cyber Hobgoblin is my favorite iteration of he character.

    Demonic Hobgoblin is my second favorite.

    Also, I miss Jason Macendale in the role. He was a bit of a loser by design, but interesting and fun to read. Both Roderick Kingsley and Phil Ulrich are/were boring.
    a clone of jason appears alongside bart back in that clone stuff.

  8. #1748
    Astonishing Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Pretty much feels like Peter secret ID isn't that useful. His friends and family still get Targeted or involved in his super hero life. Feels like all it's good for is to create drama for the character.
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  9. #1749
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    Pretty much feels like Peter secret ID isn't that useful. His friends and family still get Targeted or involved in his super hero life. Feels like all it's good for is to create drama for the character.
    Well, and for giving him a life outside being a Superhero when writers care to focus on it, but his friends and family getting targeted is far less frequent than it would be if he had a public identity in my opinion and they'd need 24/7 protection.

  10. #1750
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    There is no bad Spider-Man cartoon

  11. #1751
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Green Goblin should never stay dead.
    Agreed. Also, from what I noticed, the division over whether Norman should have stayed dead or not seems partly generational. Millenial fans on average seem happier with it than Gen X fans and Boomer fans.

    Personally, I don't see any reason why Norman should have stayed dead and plenty of reasons why he should have been brought back. Norman never used up his full potential, as proven by all the great Green Goblin stories that came out after the Clone Saga. Nor was he ever a bland character who was voted off like Jason Todd. And the fact they brought in a carbon copy to fill his vacuum (Hobgoblin) as well as several other failed Green Goblins... that proves that his death left a hole in the Spider-Man mythos.

    As for Norman's resurrection "ruining a classic story"... Did it really? The way I see it, Green Goblin's death at the end of ASM #122 serves two purposes. 1) It gives the reader some breathing room after the intense climax of their fight, and 2) it sets up Harry's eventual demise as a Green Goblin. Once Harry is dead and twenty years have passed, bringing Norman back is fair game.

    As for Norman not having been brought back under the best circumstances... True, but that doesn't mean it was an inherently bad decision to bring him back. Besides, with the success of the Raimi film and Ultimate Spider-Man, he probably would have been brought back in 616 anyway.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 12-07-2021 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #1752
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, and for giving him a life outside being a Superhero when writers care to focus on it, but his friends and family getting targeted is far less frequent than it would be if he had a public identity in my opinion and they'd need 24/7 protection.
    Back in Black is evidence he shouldn't have a public identity, while public identity can work for other heroes, Spidey gets fucked 'cause the universe hates him lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Agreed. Also, from what I noticed, the division over whether Norman should have stayed dead or not seems partly generational. Millenial fans on average seem happier with it than Gen X fans and Boomer fans.
    Eh, his resurrection is silly 'cause he came back just for the sake of Clone Saga to have a mastermind behind it all, and he became a ridiculously different character, to the point he ironically stole some of Roderick's best traits to look cool now.

    As for Norman's resurrection "ruining a classic story"... Did it really? The way I see it, Green Goblin's death at the end of ASM #122 serves two purposes. 1) It gives the reader some breathing room after the intense climax of their fight, and 2) it sets up Harry's eventual demise as a Green Goblin. Once Harry is dead and twenty years have passed, bringing Norman back is fair game.
    Only because Spider-Man by the point of Clone Saga, the franchise stopped being more mature in how it handles death, before when it happened, the characters who died generally stayed dead, and the world moved on organically, but 90's started all of this resurrection nonsense, and both aunt May and Norman were part of the pile, so yeah, his resurrection can be seen as it "ruining a classic" since we got a big villain killed who stayed that way for years, it's not because we got good stuff out of his resurrection that the resurrection itself is 100% of a good thing, what was originally garbage can bring good stories and the fact Ben exists is more than enough evidence of this.

    As for Norman not having been brought back under the best circumstances... True, but that doesn't mean it was an inherently bad decision to bring him back. Besides, with the success of the Raimi film and Ultimate Spider-Man, he probably would have been brought back in 616 anyway.
    While Ultimate Spidey is popular, Hulk Goblin is not really liked even if you know what the usual Goblin is like lol.

    Plus even if Raimi were to use GG if Norman wasn't resurrected already, hardly means it'd be like the movie portrayed it (Norman basically wanting Peter as his protegé was only created post resurrection, and the movie uses that), nor that he would resurrect, it'd be a big possibility, but not a definite.

    Either way, prefering for Norman to be alive is hardly a controversial opinion, he's a fan favorite and has liked stories both within the comics and outside of them, PS4 Spidey even has a cock tease in Norman's apartment that hints he's gonna become Green Goblin eventually (Or at least, someone will become a Goblin, but it'd be silly to be anyone but Norman since the equipment is in his apartment), so yeah, prefering him dead is the controversial opinion, him being alive is way too liked to be really controversial, even in comic books lol.

  13. #1753
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Eh, his resurrection is silly 'cause he came back just for the sake of Clone Saga to have a mastermind behind it all, and he became a ridiculously different character, to the point he ironically stole some of Roderick's best traits to look cool now.
    It's actually a myth that Norman stole from Roderick. The Hobgoblin is cool and all, but he was always a carbon copy of the Lee/Ditko Norman who was a sane mastermind like Roderick is.

    To use an analogy, the Modern Norman is to the Ditko Norman what the 2018 Michael Myers was to the '78 Michael Myers. It was a return to his roots rather than a reinvention.

    Only because Spider-Man by the point of Clone Saga, the franchise stopped being more mature in how it handles death, before when it happened, the characters who died generally stayed dead, and the world moved on organically, but 90's started all of this resurrection nonsense, and both aunt May and Norman were part of the pile, so yeah, his resurrection can be seen as it "ruining a classic" since we got a big villain killed who stayed that way for years, it's not because we got good stuff out of his resurrection that the resurrection itself is 100% of a good thing, what was originally garbage can bring good stories and the fact Ben exists is more than enough evidence of this.
    I mean, the explanation kinda makes sense. Norman having a healing factor and surviving the impact isn't a big stretch for 616. That and as the an old poster pointed out, the idea of Norman crawling out of his grave and gaslighting Peter about his identity isn't an inherently bad concept. The "crawling out of the grave" part parallels him to Peter even more, since Peter did the same in Kraven's Last Hunt.


    Either way, prefering for Norman to be alive is hardly a controversial opinion, he's a fan favorite and has liked stories both within the comics and outside of them, PS4 Spidey even has a cock tease in Norman's apartment that hints he's gonna become Green Goblin eventually (Or at least, someone will become a Goblin, but it'd be silly to be anyone but Norman since the equipment is in his apartment), so yeah, prefering him dead is the controversial opinion, him being alive is way too liked to be really controversial, even in comic books lol.
    I do think it's become more normalized in recent years. You know how they say that time normalizes things? It's not always true (*cough*OMD*cough*), but sometimes it is. Norman's resurrection was a genuine case of time having normalized something.

  14. #1754
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    It's actually a myth that Norman stole from Roderick. The Hobgoblin is cool and all, but he was always a carbon copy of the Lee/Ditko Norman who was a sane mastermind like Roderick is.

    To use an analogy, the Modern Norman is to the Ditko Norman what the 2018 Michael Myers was to the '78 Michael Myers. It was a return to his roots rather than a reinvention.
    Ditko's GG was a silver age Joker rip-off personality-wise, with the biggest advantage that he managed to escape everytime (Even then, the first time in ASM#14, Spidey was too tired from dealing with the Hulk and was far more worried about him than GG, the second time in ASM#17. Spidey left the fight because of aunt May, only the third fight in ASM#27 had GG actually escaping) and had slightly more long term plans since he was trying to take over gangs, but still acted as a goofball and had no personal connections with Spidey or Peter, modern Norman doesn't give a damn about long term plans and is a psychopath who likes to torment Peter because he has a mancrush on Peter, and overall causes destruction just because he can.

    Closest thing we had to "Norman wants to take over something" was all the way back in Dark Reign, and he specifically got to that point by avoiding his Goblin impulses to do so, and being cured from the Goblin serum specifically made him capable of thinking long term, to the point post Superior had the gimmick of "Oh now Norman is sane", and then we have Spencer's run that ignored this, since it was implying that the device he made under Ravencroft would cause destruction just because, and he started that before he got the Goblin Serum back.

    If anything, Spectacular GG is a proper modernization of Ditko's GG, and that guy's pretty different from how 616 acts in general.

    Either way, this idea of a Goblin being such a big threat didn't start with Ditko, it started with Romita and that's only because he knows of Spidey's identity, Roderick was a threat who didn't have to rely on that by actually being a strong threat, on top of knowing how to be more pragmatic if the situation asked for it, that makes modern Norman far closer to Roderick than he ever was to either Ditko's or Romita's versions of Norman.

    I mean, the explanation kinda makes sense. Norman having a healing factor and surviving the impact isn't a big stretch for 616. That and as the an old poster pointed out, the idea of Norman crawling out of his grave and gaslighting Peter about his identity isn't an inherently bad concept. The "crawling out of the grave" part parallels him to Peter even more, since Peter did the same in Kraven's Last Hunt.
    It doesn't matter how much sense it can make in-universe or not and how much symbolic sense it makes with an unrelated story Norman wasn't part of even minimally, my point is how Spider-Man's world dealt with death more maturely, and ASM#122 was about getting rid of Norman since the "haha I know your secret identity but now I don't because of easy amnesia" got old, he stayed dead for two decades and the world moved on, now suddenly he's back because to hell with consequences, how can you say it doesn't ruin a classic when part of the point of it was to kill him off?

    Norman being alive is fine, we did get good things out of it, but again, his resurrection isn't a 100% good thing, and it ruining his death in ASM#122 is one of the reasons why it's not, same way that if Gwen resurrected would also ruin ASM#121.

    I do think it's become more normalized in recent years. You know how they say that time normalizes things? It's not always true (*cough*OMD*cough*), but sometimes it is. Norman's resurrection was a genuine case of time having normalized something.
    I mean, OMD normalized Peter being single for a while even if it wasn't liked, he even briefly got a kinda liked ship with Carol, while OMD is unlikely to ever be seen as a good thing in general, Peter being single isn't liked more so because post OMD screwed over his character to make him into Spider-Manchild, and the other love interests were annoying.

    Let's put it like this, imagine if Norman is resurrected in Clone Saga, but instead of interesting stuff, all the stories that use him afterwards are terrible, this would make people more annoyed at Clone Saga because now, because of it, a classic villain is resurrected and really lame, and that's how single Peter is viewed, OMD is a bad story, and the stories where Peter is dating someone who isn't MJ are bad, so that gives more reasons to not like OMD, but if post OMD did get stories that are only good because Peter is single, or if it gave him a love interest that is generally seen as better than MJ, then OMD, would still be seen as a terrible story, but a terrible story that gave us a good thing.

    That's the benefit Norman has, asspull resurrection in a terrible story, but hey, Norman had cool stories afterwards, so that's a good thing that came out from that terrible story.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 12-07-2021 at 11:23 AM.

  15. #1755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Ditko's GG was a silver age Joker rip-off personality-wise
    They're both Trickster archetypes and the Goblin has some clear inspirations from the Joker (makes sense since Ditko studied under Robinson), but that's about it.

    The guy who's name we cannot name actually has a really good article on the inspirations for the Goblin:
    https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com...-green-goblin/

    with the biggest advantage that he managed to escape everytime (Even then, the first time in ASM#14, Spidey was too tired from dealing with the Hulk and was far more worried about him than GG, the second time in ASM#17. Spidey left the fight because of aunt May, only the third fight in ASM#27 had GG actually escaping) and had slightly more long term plans since he was trying to take over gangs, but still acted as a goofball and had no personal connections with Spidey or Peter, modern Norman doesn't give a damn about long term plans and is a psychopath who likes to torment Peter because he has a mancrush on Peter, and overall causes destruction just because he can.
    Modern Norman still acts like a goofball all the way up to Osborn: Evil Incarcerated, and Norman always had a personal connection to Peter as that was the intent. Norman first appeared as part of Jameson's club of rich elitist douchebags (lol) and was established as Harry's father prior to Ditko leaving. Also, Ditko's Norman was very much cold and psychopathic, much like Modern Norman and Spectacular Norman.

    Closest thing we had to "Norman wants to take over something" was all the way back in Dark Reign, and he specifically got to that point by avoiding his Goblin impulses to do so, and being cured from the Goblin serum specifically made him capable of thinking long term, to the point post Superior had the gimmick of "Oh now Norman is sane", and then we have Spencer's run that ignored this, since it was implying that the device he made under Ravencroft would cause destruction just because, and he started that before he got the Goblin Serum back.
    Bendis and Slott have sadly brought back the "Goblin formula makes you insane" thing of the 90s show and of the Raimi film. My opinion is that Bendis doesn't like the Green Goblin and/or understand him. He has tried to reinvent Norman Osborn twice now and neither of those versions stuck around.

    I do think an event on the scale of Dark Reign could have worked with the Green Goblin from Marvel Knights or from the Osborn miniseries.

    If anything, Spectacular GG is a proper modernization of Ditko's GG, and that guy's pretty different from how 616 acts in general.
    He's not very different from the Norman in Revenge of the Green Goblin, Death in the Family, Marvel Knights, and Evil Incarcerated. In fact, I would argue you could have done almost a straight adaptation of all of those in the show (or some mix of them).

    Either way, this idea of a Goblin being such a big threat didn't start with Ditko, it started with Romita and that's only because he knows of Spidey's identity, Roderick was a threat who didn't have to rely on that by actually being a strong threat, on top of knowing how to be more pragmatic if the situation asked for it, that makes modern Norman far closer to Roderick than he ever was to either Ditko's or Romita's versions of Norman.
    Again, this is a myth. The Green Goblin made more appearances in the Ditko era than any other villain, was the one villain to always get away and one-up Spider-Man, and was the first to successfully trick Spider-Man (thereby establishing thematically as the alpha male of his villains). Even as early as ASM #14, it's clear the Green Goblin is seen by Lee/Ditko as the big bad he was always meant to be. It's simply not true that all of that came with or started with Romita.

    It doesn't matter how much sense it can make in-universe or not and how much symbolic sense it makes with an unrelated story Norman wasn't part of even minimally, my point is how Spider-Man's world dealt with death more maturely, and ASM#122 was about getting rid of Norman since the "haha I know your secret identity but now I don't because of easy amnesia" got old, he stayed dead for two decades and the world moved on, now suddenly he's back because to hell with consequences, how can you say it doesn't ruin a classic when part of the point of it was to kill him off?

    Norman being alive is fine, we did get good things out of it, but again, his resurrection isn't a 100% good thing, and it ruining his death in ASM#122 is one of the reasons why it's not, same way that if Gwen resurrected would also ruin ASM#121.
    Like I said in my previous post, the point of Norman's "death" in #122 was to 1) allow the reader some breathing room after that intense climax (meaning a break from Norman for at least a while) and 2) it sets up Harry's eventual demise. Once Harry is dead and two decades have past, in theory it seems fine to bring back Norman.

    I would add three other reasons to that:

    1) Peter isn't even the one who kills him, so his death doesn't mean anything for Peter in the way other villain deaths do. The Night Gwen Stacy Died is a story about Peter choosing to not be consumed by revenge, which can be told with or without Norman dead (Gwen's death however does mean something for Peter and his development, and also for MJ's development).

    2) Archenemies having a "final showdown" in your main serialized superhero continuity typically doesn't work. Most archenemies are designed to be ongoing like their respective heroes. It's because archenemies embody the opposite ideals of their respective heroes, and are therefore just as eternal.

    3) The idea of Norman as an always evolving and growing threat to parallel Spider-Man who is about growth is IMO more interesting and was therefore worth Norman being brought back.

    I mean, OMD normalized Peter being single for a while even if it wasn't liked, he even briefly got a kinda liked ship with Carol, while OMD is unlikely to ever be seen as a good thing in general, Peter being single isn't liked more so because post OMD screwed over his character to make him into Spider-Manchild, and the other love interests were annoying.

    Let's put it like this, imagine if Norman is resurrected in Clone Saga, but instead of interesting stuff, all the stories that use him afterwards are terrible, this would make people more annoyed at Clone Saga because now, because of it, a classic villain is resurrected and really lame, and that's how single Peter is viewed, OMD is a bad story, and the stories where Peter is dating someone who isn't MJ are bad, so that gives more reasons to not like OMD, but if post OMD did get stories that are only good because Peter is single, or if it gave him a love interest that is generally seen as better than MJ, then OMD, would still be seen as a terrible story, but a terrible story that gave us a good thing.

    That's the benefit Norman has, asspull resurrection in a terrible story, but hey, Norman had cool stories afterwards, so that's a good thing that came out from that terrible story.
    Quality has a lot to do with it, that's for sure. That said, OMD was always the symptom to the problem. The actual problem is editors not wanting Peter to be written like an adult. Even if you make a truly phenomenal story where a 25-year old Peter acts childish, it's always going to stick out as a sore thumb in a way that Norman's resurrection never will.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 12-07-2021 at 01:03 PM.

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