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  1. #826
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Okay?



    Thought it worked in the context of itself, but fair enough if it wasn't your thing. (I guess for me, I appreciated that the series basically decided to focus on one relationship and develop that one in depth instead of dividing its time between multiple ones. There are ways to make the latter work and I do think part of the reason the 616 Peter/MJ relationship does work is that there is a degree of realism in that they weren't each other's first boyfriend/girlfriend and things kinda developed by chance over time. However, I do think Bendis did the childhood friends trope right and, since he was writing a high school-centric series which never really moved much past that, it was probably the right call for this take.)

    (Guess I can add another controversial opinion, based on recent comments; I think the hostility to teenage Spidey is overdone, since I think that both teen and adulthood stories offer unique and good material that the other doesn't have.)
    Is not that a think that Bendis did a bad job, is just not a direction that appealed to me, but i can see why others like it.

    As for teen Spidey, there is nothing inherently wrong with him (my love for Spec Spidey is well known), but the way that Marvel has handle it from both cartoons and MCU, i had grown a bit sour regarding the concept.
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  2. #827
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe by the time he started dating MJ.

    That's one thing I kind of have to fault Weisman and co. for playing the long game with...they never really got to do the shift from Gwen to MJ so it started building up this renewed fervor for Gwen as a love interest that culminated in the ASM movies and some of the revisionist history that happens with Gwen.

    I feel like they were married in the 90's cartoon and just about to have a kid.

    I think it's that the Richard's marriage is seen as being central to the FF as a family dynamic.

    Yeah, I think it's just an issue that there's been so much focus and attention to teen Spidey as of late and we're only slowly seeing a shift towards adult Peter again.

    Although I feel like they've kind of ran about as far as you can get with teen Peter between the MCU and Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon.

    I think this is more true for Slott (and to a lesser extent Gage) than Marvel as a whole.
    Yeah, real life circumstances really rob us of a a great opportunity there.

    Also, Gage take on Peter and Otto was just sligtly better than Slott frankly.
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  3. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I should tell you all that a lot of old-school Fantastic Four fans aren't on board with Reed and Sue getting married and Sue giving birth to Franklin. These guys wanted to ship Sue with Namor and/or other heroes, and weren't happy that Lee-Kirby pulled the trigger themselves meaning they can't even say (not that it matters since "creator's intent" and "originally introduced" are lame excuses) that the creators of FF didn't intend it or that it was never part of the design and so on. A common subplot with Susan is adultery fantasies with Namor and/or T'Challa, and sometimes Doctor Doom. Ultimate Fantastic Four (which inspired that wretched movie with Michael B. Jordan) had them as teenagers as well.

    Virtually no adaptation of Fantastic Four (barring the second Jessica Alba FF movie) features Reed and Sue getting married, as a couple, and as parents. It's never been exported out of 616. There are more adaptations with Peter-MJ as a married couple than Reed and Sue. So believe me if Marvel could, they'd go after the Richards' marriage as well. The reason they haven't is...to put it as brutally as possible...nobody really cares all that much if Reed and Sue are together/apart/divorced etcetera. Emotionally they never really got the attention of the audience the way Peter/MJ did, or Scott/Jean did or used-to-do. The really cool and interesting FF members were always Johnny Storm and Thing, people were vastly more upset when Johnny Storm dated and married Alicia Masters, the character Kirby/Lee intended as Ben Grimm's true love (and were pleased when they made that Alicia into a Skrull and annulled it). So Susan Storm's growth and change isn't comparable to Gwen Stacy. In the course of Kirby-Lee's run, they made Sue into a homemaker and mother, so that made her a little untouchable because nobody wants to read a Fantastic Four comic and see Susan Storm cheating on the father of her child, or see stories where this super-team fail to keep the little sprog alive, and so on. Fantastic Four always was a generally optimistic title...even under Jonathan Hickman.
    There are more adaptations featuring Peter and MJ as a couple because Peter and MJ appear in more adaptations than Reed and Sue. A loud and vocal minority in the past shipping Sue with Namor or T'Challa doesn't reflect the actual reception to their relationship and these days, hardly anyone even brings up Sue's attraction to T'Challa preferring to ship him with either Storm, Monica or Nakia. Namor's actions in the past have pretty much sunk (no pun intended) any shot of him and Sue getting together and frankly I'm not sure if there was ever a chance of it happening. It's the type of relationship championed by emotionally stunted people like the extreme segments of the Reylo and Zutara fandoms.

    Hell, Sue and Reed being married has been featured in at least two adaptations whereas we didn't get an adaptation in which Peter and MJ got married until Into the Spiderverse - which wasn't primarily about their relationship - in 2018. By your logic, no one cares about their relationship either even though virtually every adaptation acknowledges their relationship same as Reed and Sue's.

    Of course Sue's change and growth isn't comparable to Gwen. That's my point; Sue grew and evolved, Gwen didn't, so comparing the two is a false equivalency. For someone who champions growth and change for Spider-Man you seem to ignore it when it comes to characters you dislike. Ben and Johnny have consistently failed to hold onto an audience whenever they go solo and Reed and Sue have grown past what they initially were.

  4. #829
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Also, Gage take on Peter and Otto was just sligtly better than Slott frankly.
    Gage had me up until he had Anna Maria Marconi acting like Doc Ock valued women for their character more than Peter did.

  5. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Hell, Sue and Reed being married has been featured in at least two adaptations whereas we didn't get an adaptation in which Peter and MJ got married until Into the Spiderverse - which wasn't primarily about their relationship - in 2018.
    Spider-man the animated series, Spider-man unlimited, and a few video games, but your point still stands.

  6. #831
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Gage had me up until he had Anna Maria Marconi acting like Doc Ock valued women for their character more than Peter did.
    I was trying to forget that, curse you Frontier! *waving arm dramatically*
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  7. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Spider-man the animated series, Spider-man unlimited, and a few video games, but your point still stands.
    The MJ that Peter married in TAS was a clone and I don't recall them being mentioned as married in Unlimited. Which games had them married?

  8. #833
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The MJ that Peter married in TAS was a clone and I don't recall them being mentioned as married in Unlimited. Which games had them married?
    Were they explicitly married in Web of Shadows? I forget.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I was trying to forget that, curse you Frontier! *waving arm dramatically*
    It also flies in the face of the fact that Otto, while in Peter's body, immediately tried to get into MJ's pants.

  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The MJ that Peter married in TAS was a clone and I don't recall them being mentioned as married in Unlimited. Which games had them married?
    I personally ignore the whole water clone plotline lol. That's when the series jumped the shark. Even still, it's an adaptation of the wedding.

    Yeah they were explicitly married in unlimited.

    They were also married in Spider-man 2000 and its sequel. And I thought Web of Shadows as well, but I could be wrong. There were also games from the 90s that depicted them as married couple (though I can't remember their names off the top of my head).

  10. #835
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Pretty sure they mention they're married in Web of Shadows. That was starting development when they were still married in the comics.

    Controversial opinion: I love the water clone stuff in the 90s cartoon, I think it's dramatically some of the show's strongest stuff. It's the show doing it's own thing but still staying true to the overall spirit of the comics by touching on the original clone saga and what that sort of put Peter through. MJ is a surrogate for Gwen there but the emotions still ring true, we see a Peter absolutely wrecked emotionally like in the comics. That's pretty rough, he loses MJ to a dreaded portal, only for her to mysteriously show up again and he gets married to her, and then she turns out to be a clone, it's just great drama lol. It's like if Gwen came back and Peter accepted it, married her, and then found out she was an unstable clone who dies in his arms again.

  11. #836
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    They were also married in Spider-man 2000 and its sequel. And I thought Web of Shadows as well, but I could be wrong. There were also games from the 90s that depicted them as married couple (though I can't remember their names off the top of my head).
    There was Spider-Man versus the Kingpin (SEGA), Spider-Man 2000 (Activision) and the sequel Enter Electro, Web of Shadows as you mentioned, either Shattered Dimensions or Edge of Time one of the two. There was a fighting game where they weren't just married but the victory cutscene had her tell Peter she was pregnant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Through no fault of his own, JMS' portrayal of Peter might have actually hit a nerve for some of the Marvel staff.
    Actually it did. If you ever read Brevoort's Manifesto for BND, he talks about JMS showing Peter as a teacher as casting him as being older.

  12. #837
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Gage had me up until he had Anna Maria Marconi acting like Doc Ock valued women for their character more than Peter did.
    Which makes Anna Maria look even dumber since she was the one who insisted for him to go date Mockingbird, and she saw that Peter wasn't confortable with the whole molester Cindy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Were they explicitly married in Web of Shadows? I forget.
    They don't say, but considering they're together, and the game takes place before Civil War (As you can find posters around talking about the registration not being done yet), it's possible, but again, never said.

  13. #838
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Were they explicitly married in Web of Shadows? I forget.

    It also flies in the face of the fact that Otto, while in Peter's body, immediately tried to get into MJ's pants.
    Obviously he was appreciating the inner beauty of her dress
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  14. #839
    Amazing Member la.forsaken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It also flies in the face of the fact that Otto, while in Peter's body, immediately tried to get into MJ's pants.
    hmm... if i remember correctly Otto moved away from MJ. And that Otto simply did not fancy MJ.

    i taken otto is not infatuated by how a woman looks, given his prompt response to felecia with a punch.
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  15. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Seeing as Doc Ock has so much in common with Walter White, it's not surprising that the writers who tried propping up Hero Ock were the same ones in favor of OMD. I find that very revealing. What that shows IMO is that a lot of people at Marvel see the real everyman as being closer to guys like Otto and Walter White than they do to Peter Parker. A happily-married bitterless Spider-Man just didn't make sense, so "obviously" it had to be shut down in favor of a more "realistic" Spider-Man that can't maintain relationships.

    Through no fault of his own, JMS' portrayal of Peter might have actually hit a nerve for some of the Marvel staff.
    How is Ock anything like Walter White?

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