Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Username taken]

Going in to Spider-Man 1, she was certainly more famous at the time than Tobey Maguire, JK Simmons and Willem Dafoe (leave alone James Franco, lol).

I mean I knew KD going in, from Jumanji and Small Soldiers. Whereas Tobey Maguire had Pleasantville, The Ice Storm, Wonder Boys and a few other roles and if he was in the press it was as Leonardo DiCaprio's pal. Dafoe had dropped out of the radar completely since the '80s. The moviegoers who knew Tobey Maguire would also know of KD's amazing performance in The Virgin Suicides.

Anyway, I don't really think it's a big deal or anything for KD to ruminate, in retrospect, she shoulda gotten a bigger slice.

Dafoe had not dropped off the radar at all.

He was nominated for an Academy Award for Shadow of the Vampire in 2000. Before then he was in the English Patient and Clear and Present Danger.

[HypnoHustler]

Dafoe had not dropped off the radar at all.

He was nominated for an Academy Award for Shadow of the Vampire in 2000. Before then he was in the English Patient and Clear and Present Danger.

Yeah. Not to mention his role in Boondock Saints, which had become a cult hit in every dorm room around this time. RJ, I like you, but you sometimes have weird takes that aren’t backed up by the facts….

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But from the outside looking in, she got a very good deal at the time.

That's because things are different now because movie stars are endangered species and that's generally speaking not a good thing.

I mean the pay gap between KD and Tobey is probably not as high as between RDJ and Paltrow, which she herself complained about in much ruder terms back in 2015[/URL]

https://www. e o n l i n e. com/news/703485/gwyneth-paltrow-talks-disparity-between-her-salary-and-iron-man-co-star-robert-downey-jr-it-s-s-ty

[THIS LINK IS ONE OF THOSE THAT ACTS FUNKY ON CBR, remove the space between "www." and "eonline" to go to the article).

In the "franchise era" of Hollywood that we find ourselves today, it's only the top stars that command that sort of money and that's mainly through back end payments. That's certainly not money you will very rarely see nowadays as a supporting actor in a superhero film.

It's also the case that supporting characters in superhero movies have been devalued and diminished by the MCU era. Today everyone has to have super-powers to some extent to matter.

Whereas that wasn't the case before. And certainly the Raimi Spider-Man movies didn't subscribe to that because the comics didn't believe that at all.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Dafoe had not dropped off the radar at all.

He was nominated for an Academy Award for Shadow of the Vampire in 2000. Before then he was in the English Patient and Clear and Present Danger.

Well maybe I'd have to amend my point slightly. But anyway I'm not wrong in arguing that Kirsten Dunst was far more famous at that time than he and others in the cast were.

Yeah. Not to mention his role in Boondock Saints, which had become a cult hit in every dorm room around this time.

Uh...some dorm rooms maybe but let's not try and argue that was a big deal in any sense.

RJ, I like you, but you sometimes have weird takes that aren’t backed up by the facts….

Saying that Kirsten Dunst at the outset of Spider-Man's release was more famous than her co-stars isn't a "weird take" and it's still backed by facts.

My point about Dafoe dropping off the radar was entirely in terms of mainstream prominence and that's still true in general. I exaggerated, which I do sometimes, but that doesn't mean everything I said there was wrong.

[HypnoHustler]

Well maybe I'd have to amend my point slightly. But anyway I'm not wrong in arguing that Kirsten Dunst was far more famous at that time than he and others in the cast were.



Uh...some dorm rooms maybe but let's not try and argue that was a big deal in any sense.

Huh, what?? I have to assume you were NOT in college at the time. I was. It hasn’t aged well and was probably never a good movie in actuality, but ‘Boondock Saints’ was HUGE in college dorms from 1999 to about 2003 or so. There’s even been a documentary made about what a surprise hit it was and how the writer/director had a golden ticket to Hollywood fame that he then proceeded to screw up with his obnoxious personality. Not to mention what the other person said was true… his role in ‘Vampire’ had generated a huge amount of Academy Award buzz.

Saying that Kirsten Dunst at the outset of Spider-Man's release was more famous than her co-stars isn't a "weird take" and it's still backed by facts.

I think what you’re calling a “fact” is your conjecture. Dunst was barely past being a child-actor in ‘Jumanji’ and had had a couple roles in light teen comedies like ‘Dick’ and ‘Bring it On.’ Certainly a budding star in her own right, but her market was largely a different audience; like comparing apples and oranges. Like I said… weird takes. Maybe what you mean is the ‘Spider-Man’ film made younger audiences more aware of Dafoe.

[Lukmendes]

I absolutely agree, negotiating when the movie was being made is always good.But that's the thing, she didn't negotiate back then.So if that's the problem she should have said she didn't feel comfortable in asking for more and that's something she regrets and hopes new actresses are more forward in their demands.But that's not what she means.

And I'm again not saying getting a bigger slice is something she's wrong about, I'd 100% be on her side if she wanted more than what she got.But she's asking for as much as Tobey and her reasoning for it is quite frankly just ridiculous and ignoring so many important aspects.

Her point is I'm on the poster so I'm just as important as the main character, and should have been paid just as much even though the other person had far more screen time, a more difficult job, actually negotiated, is the character after which the movie is named, etc.

Yeah the reasoning is silly, ultimately what carries Spider-Man 2 is Spidey and Otto, and while her character is still important, it's obviously not as much as, y'know, the hero and the villain lol.

Even with the dumb reasoning, or excuse or whatever, still think it's fair to ask for more, 'cause again, business.

The same Aunt May who gave this speech in the same run:

She's also the same aunt May who keeps parroting that Spider-Man is horrible, Peter is fragile lil' bitch, and that Otto is a good man, reliable her opinion ain't, even if she's not wrong all the time.

Well it's not just Lee, there's also Ditko. The first issue on which Steve Ditko had plotting credit was ASM#25 which had her first ever pre-appearance. So Ditko clearly intended to set her up because that was when he had control and could do anything he wanted and he instead chose to build her up.

I guess he was setting up MJ to be something big, but he also had Peter and Gwen having blatant crushes on each other after Gwen was introduced, whether or not he was planning to have MJ win out in the end is anyone's guess.

Either way, at the end of the day, Ditko decided to quit and someone else took over, and the initial choice was Gwen, not MJ, we can wonder about what ifs all day, but nothing's conclusive, who knows, maybe it wouldn't be either Gwen or MJ and another chick introduced afterwards would be the one, assuming Ditko even planned for Peter to have a permanent love interest to begin with, or assuming he even planned that far with no changes lol.

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/i...1c0b8e921d.jpg

This link isn't working by the way.

Fan resentment is to be expected. They always object to actors getting higher salaries but never the corporations pocketing stuff off labor they don't do. They have been reared to value the IP over any of the creators and talent involved in sustaining and giving that value.

I do think actors get ridiculously overpaid at times, but being a recognizable face gives you that privilege, and if they're not getting a higher salary, some CEO or another ******* is getting that much money, either way someone's getting more money than they should lol.

That's why Tom Holland was hired in the first place and it's likely why he's lately talking about bowing out because he's got regular millionaire money and not movie star money out of this gig. Robert Downey Jr. got paid $10mn for his cameo in Spider-Man Homecoming, a role that was shorter than KD but I'm sure people will bend over backwards and say how that much cash for basically 15mns screentime is somehow important and crucial than RDJ (who is famous for point-blank refusing to do any mo-cap work). RDJ earned more from those 15mns than Tom Holland did for all three movies but nobody objects to that for some reason.

Reminds me Hugh Jackman got paid like, 10k for his cameo in X-Men: First Class, and all he did was say "Go **** yourselves" lol.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/241...man-homecoming

I mean at the end of the day RDJ is an American he knows the system and he leveraged early and hard and gets to be "Cool forever". The difference is that where KD after Spider-Man worked on a number of independent and outsider films and still does, RDJ has basically retired full time and doesn't seem to want to pay it forward, i.e. use the superhero cash to actually work in smaller films that could use the starpower.[/QUOTE]

Huh, that's nice of her.

It's also the case that supporting characters in superhero movies have been devalued and diminished by the MCU era. Today everyone has to have super-powers to some extent to matter.

"And when everyone is super, no one will be."

[Username taken]

Well maybe I'd have to amend my point slightly. But anyway I'm not wrong in arguing that Kirsten Dunst was far more famous at that time than he and others in the cast were.



Uh...some dorm rooms maybe but let's not try and argue that was a big deal in any sense.



Saying that Kirsten Dunst at the outset of Spider-Man's release was more famous than her co-stars isn't a "weird take" and it's still backed by facts.

My point about Dafoe dropping off the radar was entirely in terms of mainstream prominence and that's still true in general. I exaggerated, which I do sometimes, but that doesn't mean everything I said there was wrong.

In terms of popularity, that would definitely be a "who you ask" question regarding Dafoe and Dunst.

I remember seeing Dafoe in a lot of high profile projects in those days, certainly much more than Dunst.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Huh, what?? I have to assume you were NOT in college at the time.

No but my cousin was and he didn't know of Boondock Saints. The college dorm room movies at the time were Tarantino movies, Boogie Nights, Magnolia, Fight Club, The Matrix, and among the true nerds HK crime movies. In terms of cult indie movies "Donnie Darko". Also "Requiem for a Dream". But Boondock Saints just didn't fit into that at all mostly because it didn't have stylish action scenes, violence, graphic sex and drugs (which is what college dorm rooms were into at that time, and which is why people saw the other movies).

Not to mention what the other person said was true… his role in ‘Vampire’ had generated a huge amount of Academy Award buzz.

Well there's Academy Award buzz and Academy Award buzz. 2001 was the year of Gladiator and Traffic, those were big movies that caught attention whereas Shadow of the Vampire got Dafoe a Supporting Actor nomination, which is significant for him no doubt but it didn't exactly amount to real fame.

I think what you’re calling a “fact” is your conjecture. Dunst was barely past being a child-actor in ‘Jumanji’ and had had a couple roles in light teen comedies like ‘Dick’ and ‘Bring it On.’ Certainly a budding star in her own right, but her market was largely a different audience; like comparing apples and oranges.

The audience for teenagers and teen girls is A]numerically significant and lucrative, B]was crucial for making Titanic the biggest movie in the planet, C]absolutely significant for the success of the Raimi movies which was sold in good part on a love story.

Maybe what you mean is the ‘Spider-Man’ film made younger audiences more aware of Dafoe.

Look the audience that knows "Shadow of the Vampire" (which is a niche film) isn't mainstream. They would be the likes who knew of Dafoe's work with Paul Schrader, David Lynch, Abel Ferrara in the 90s, for them Dafoe never went away. Whereas for general average joe audiences, Dafoe would be remembered as the heroic mentor in Oliver Stone's Platoon which won best picture in the 80s and was remembered (and still is) as a great war movie. Others would know him for being Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ (which is one of the few notable films in which Dafoe got to be a leading man) and the controversy that created.

So yeah, among the general public, Spider-Man 1 would be seen as Dafoe's biggest role in years.

Yeah the reasoning is silly, ultimately what carries Spider-Man 2 is Spidey and Otto, and while her character is still important, it's obviously not as much as, y'know, the hero and the villain lol.

Well if that's the case how come it's her face on the posters. The first trailer of Spider-Man 2 after all opened on the scene in the restaurant with her and Tobey where she gets the first lines there. I mean the actual film is about the Peter-MJ love story more than Doctor Octopus (who's basically there for shenanigans rather than a real character).

She's also the same aunt May who keeps parroting that Spider-Man is horrible,

As does everyone around Spider-Man in that time. Including Gwen later.

Peter is fragile lil' bitch

Have you never known mothers?

"And when everyone is super, no one will be."

That quote in the original context is maybe dubious...but in this context yeah it fits. The more actors get to be superhero in tights the less they are themselves and the less they are viable on their own.

[HypnoHustler]

I don’t have time to reply to everything here (and to be honest, there’s no point as debating with you is exhausting as you’ll just continue to argue at the margins for why your opinion is more correct than mine), but I’ll just say I think my first-hand account of campus atmosphere is stronger than your second-hand account of what it was like through your cousin. ‘Saints’ is one of the biggest cult hits of all time, and it’s weird that you keep arguing otherwise. Yes, Tarantino and the other stuff you mentioned was also big, but it’s weird you’re trying to act like an authority on college students’ tastes…… they also liked edgy action flicks with lots of swearing, shooting and violence… and there was a time when you’d go into a dorm room and if the TV was on there was at least a 10% chance ‘Boondock Saints’ was playing in the background. I don’t know what else to tell you. Maybe you should watch the documentary I mentioned. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overnight

And I’m officially burned out on talking about this now, so you can tell me again about how I’m wrong and it wasn’t as big as I know it was, and how Dafoe wasn’t as known as I know he was, but I’ll leave it at that.

EDIT: Did you actually say ‘Boondock Saints’ didn’t have “stylish action scenes”? It’s pretty much a two hour “stylish action scene.” It also had sex scenes and drug use. You’ve obviously never watched it.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don’t have time to reply to everything here (and to be honest, there’s no point as debating with you is exhausting as you’ll just continue to argue at the margins for why your opinion is more correct than mine)

I am sorry for that.

, but I’ll just say I think my first-hand account of campus atmosphere is stronger than your second-hand account of what it was like through your cousin. ‘Saints’ is one of the biggest cult hits of all time, and it’s weird that you keep arguing otherwise. Yes, Tarantino and the other stuff you mentioned was also big, but it’s weird you’re trying to act like an authority on college students’ tastes…… they also liked edgy action flicks with lots of swearing, shooting and violence… and there was a time when you’d go into a dorm room and if the TV was on there was at least a 10% chance ‘Boondock Saints’ was playing in the background.

I guess you are right, I'm sorry for that.

[HypnoHustler]

It’s fine. You don’t need to be sorry. Just don’t be so forceful in your opinions. You’re a smart person, but you’d butt heads with people less if you’d just take what they’re saying at face value sometimes instead of picking it apart. I don’t always agree with others, but sometimes it’s best just to let things go. Anyway, don’t worry about it. It’s a good documentary though.

[Lukmendes]

Well if that's the case how come it's her face on the posters. The first trailer of Spider-Man 2 after all opened on the scene in the restaurant with her and Tobey where she gets the first lines there. I mean the actual film is about the Peter-MJ love story more than Doctor Octopus (who's basically there for shenanigans rather than a real character).

Saying that Otto isn't a real character is silly, we get to see his life before he decides to become a villain, we see why he decided to become one and ultimately redeem himself, and Peter knowing him personally made the conflict more dramatic, it's not that complex, but it's there.

But fine, guess my own indifference for that interpretation of MJ made me undermine her importance, maybe I should watch those movies again to remember more.

As does everyone around Spider-Man in that time.

Flash and Liz don't think he's a villain, and Betty just doesn't like people who go live dangerous lives, she actually scolded Peter for goading JJ into using the Spider-Slayer and tried to mess with Spider-Slayer's controls to save Spidey.

Basically the characters aren't necessarily going to believe everything the media says, though in aunt May's defense, she never really interacted with Spidey while the others kinda did... On the other hand, she decided to believe Otto is not a villain anyways, so yeah.

Including Gwen later.

Gwen liked Spidey at first, but their encounters gave her good reasons to hate him, like "kidnapping" Peter more than once, and as far as she knows he's the cause of her father's death, and it seemed like he was trying to kidnap her after George got killed... While Spidey did save her life once too, she has understandable reasons to hate him in spite of that.

Have you never known mothers?

Wonder what you'd say if the answer was "No, I haven't" .

Anyways, mothers may worry a lot, but they aren't necessarily going to be so condescending when worrying about their kids, mine definitely isn't.

That quote in the original context is maybe dubious...but in this context yeah it fits. The more actors get to be superhero in tights the less they are themselves and the less they are viable on their own.

Was refering to the "super-heroes are having less and less civilian supporting cast", but hey, guess it works for that one too lol.

[marhawkman]

Saying that Kirsten Dunst at the outset of Spider-Man's release was more famous than her co-stars isn't a "weird take" and it's still backed by facts.

Yeah Kirsten Dunst had a pretty hefty portfolio.

Kirsten Dunst in 1993:

Yes, REALLY! She was an "alien of the week" guest character in an episode of Star Trek! She did an amazing job there since she actually technically played two characters.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The 2000s was a good time for child actors to make it big using the superhero genre: Kirsten Dunst in the Spider-Man movies, Christian Bale in the Batman movies, Anna Paquin in the first two X-Men movies.

[TheRay]

Kid Arachnid is a perfectly fine character.