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  1. #901
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    It is clear if we read the Lee/Ditko issues that the narrative was setting her up.
    Mary Jane's appearance was certainly something built up and long expected by readers at the time. Gerry Conway talked about reading the Lee-Ditko run and wanting to know who MJ was, and feeling that obviously the story was setting her up to be "the one"...and then Romita Sr's introduction where basically the character built up as the special, cool, mysterious one not only lives up to the hype but exceeds it (which happens rarely).

    She was first mentioned in ASM#15, and then a few more times...and then in ASM#25 (the first issue on which Ditko had plotting credit), he set her up in a big way with Liz and Betty taking one look at her and, simultaneously thinking how she has them beat (god I miss thought balloons, because that's an effect you can't pull off now).

    Holland's Spider-Man is in a lot of ways MCU Hawkeye all over again. Disney/Marvel played it safe and based their Hawkeye on the Ultimate version which was just on its way out the door in the zeitgeist. Shortly after that Matt Fraction's Hawkeye came out and was a huge success. A decade later, 616 Hawkeye is still booming while the MCU struggles to help its Hawkeye stay afloat all because they made the wrong calculation with his characterization early on. They may have made the same mistake with Spider-Man - only time will tell but so far the details are the same.
    Good point. The important thing to note about MCU Spider-Man is that he was hastily put together. The deal to bring Spider-Man into the MCU was done very quickly and on short notice all so they can put him in CIVIL WAR. So on very short notice they cast the actor, they cast Aunt May, and they featured him in Civil War...so the level of time, thought, consideration which Feige and others gave to other Marvel Characters wasn't extended to Spider-Man. Sam Raimi and others devoted a lot of thought and attention to Spider-Man in the trilogy and that shows, even in the weakest parts there's a coherence there. Whereas the Marc Webb movies were hastily put together, the Tom Holland MCU movies were hastily put together without any real consideration of a long-term idea.

    So with the MCU Spider-Man, they cast a guy who is primarily a character actor and a supporting actor who plays off established stars Holland isn't a leading man, he can't command a movie on his own. He's good as a supporting actor but not as a lead (as is apparent in the recent Netflix movie with Robert Pattinson that he appeared in, which is pretty obvious if you see the bulk of Holland's career so far and in the upcoming Uncharted where Mark Wahlberg gets to mentor him). Holland's casting is good for Robert Downey Jr and Iron Man's character arc but it's not at all good for Spider-Man to be established as a leading player.

    And I don't know if anyone can be blamed for that really. Sony need Spider-Man to survive as a major studio, lot of jobs are on the line with them holding on to those rights. So they had to make a Spider-Man movie and they had to dig out of the self-inflicted mess with the Garfield movies and those spinoff plans that are never to be. Feige wanted Spider-Man in the MCU. The deal between Disney-Sony is really fragile and can be walked away from anytime, so the producers making this don't really have the luxury to slow-walk and pace the movies and stories. I hope the next Spider-Man movie is the last one with Holland, and after that they James Bond it...they get a new actor as Peter when he goes to college...they don't redo the past and origin (they do the Don Cheadle thing in IM-2) and they continue onwards.

  2. #902
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    It's hard to know what Ditko would have done with MJ. Clearly he intended for her to be very glamorous and beautiful, but I doubt she would have been nearly as popular without Romita's influence.

    I also wonder what Ditko intended for Gwen Stacy given that she was a much spicier character than what she became under Lee/Romita. His Gwen looked like a femme fatale, was drawn with those "devil horn" hair clips, and was always dressed in red so I wonder if that was some foreshadowing on his part. Maybe Spider-Man's first female supervillain?

  3. #903
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    It's hard to know what Ditko would have done with MJ. Clearly he intended for her to be very glamorous and beautiful, but I doubt she would have been nearly as popular without Romita's influence.

    I also wonder what Ditko intended for Gwen Stacy given that she was a much spicier character than what she became under Lee/Romita. His Gwen looked like a femme fatale, was drawn with those "devil horn" hair clips, and was always dressed in red so I wonder if that was some foreshadowing on his part. Maybe Spider-Man's first female supervillain?
    Princess Python? Unless you mean exclusive.

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Princess Python? Unless you mean exclusive.
    Ha! How could I forget Princess Python?

  5. #905
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Was it? I know Fury said he'd someday make Peter work for SHIELD, but I don't really remember if anything was actually done to mentor him, Ultimate Fallout even has aunt May calling out the other heroes by saying they did nothing to actually train him, though she does say that he looked up to the other heroes.
    Just before the Death of Spider-Man story, Spider-Man was signed up for lessons from the Ultimates (complete with a scene with the members discussing the question based on their experiences) -- and the Spider-Men II story did show that he eventually became a member. Even before all that, USM played him up as the new kid on the block who the veterans either saw him as an annoyance or a kid who had a lot to learn before he could call himself a full-fledged superhero (also contrasting him as one of the only superheroes who wasn't corrupt, an a-hole, or both, but that's another topic). Spider-Man working with Nick Fury was invented for USM.

    Long story short, yes it was. (Heck, even Spidey looking up to Iron Man in the movies is true to the source material, despite some viewers taking exception to it because "not in the comics" -- and is yet another thing MCU Peter does not share with Miles).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That'd ridiculously arbitrary if it was the intention, kid invents the webbing by himself, but having a nice-looking costume is going too far?
    Maybe, but the devil is in the details. Besides, Ultimate Peter didn't make his own suit either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Peter's attitude and lack of confidence from growing up in a world of superheroes is also Miles-esque.
    Dunno; Miles never had Peter's eagerness to join the Avengers, never really had a mentor figure a la Iron Man (when his mom died, he just quit instead of carrying on while figuring out where he was going). While trying to find out how to be a hero his way is a parallel, it's handled differently for the characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I should clarify that "he stole from Miles" is a simplification. More accurately, Peter stole from the story of Miles. Miles goes to an elitist school and deals with classism more directly than Peter did.
    Dunno; the Spider-Verse movie touched on it a lot more; Flash's style of bullying was revised as an update of the original concept more then anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    He lives with a young parent and the dynamic he has with May is closer to the one Miles had with his parents than the one Peter had with his older, unconventional parent figures.
    MCU Peter and May were based on their Ultimate incarnations, not the 616 one. Also, they have little in common with Miles and his dad's relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Most importantly, Miles always had the opposite problem as Peter - he struggles with confidence but not with doing the right thing.
    Sorry, not really seeing how MCU Peter "stole" that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    In the MCU's defense, none of this was enough to make Miles that distinct, and Bendis' Miles was to a huge extent a black clone of Peter.
    Yeah, I'm one of those people who thinks that Ultimate Miles was a good concept on paper, but Bendis's first pass was a really bland character that didn't really live up to the full potential. Now Bendis's writing on the comics was hardly bad, but when reading the Miles comics, I just can't help but think that it was a mistake to not have Ultimate Jessica Drew take over the mantle (she was a grossly underused character). The Spider-Verse movie was a vast improvement (giving Miles better motivations for his origin story and making his personalty more then just the "nice kid" did wonders for him).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    But the very few differences I brought up were at least a good starting point to differentiate Miles' story from Peter's story. They should have expanded on the things that made Miles' story different instead of just letting MCU Peter absorb them. By doing the latter, the MCU put up barriers to eventually doing Miles (and had Miles not gotten the attention he did in the last two years, telling Miles' story through Peter might have done long-term damage to Miles and cause him to fall into obscurity).
    Guess we'll see how an MCU Miles works or doesn't when they get there. I do think that it's a bit early to tell what kind of staying power Miles will have. It's a safe bet that Peter will always be the "main" Spider-Man; he is one of the most iconic superheroes of all time and as we've seen from the Flash, the superstars will not be replaced even if the replacement was cemented as the "one true" hero. Kinda wonder if Spider-Man is moving towards Green Lantern-style roster; lotta heroes wearing the mask, but one is the default main one (although I hope Peter remains a more interesting character then Hal Jordan, poster boy of the "cis white male character who always trumps the better written legacy characters because he came first" club).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Just before the Death of Spider-Man story, Spider-Man was signed up for lessons from the Ultimates (complete with a scene with the members discussing the question based on their experiences) -- and the Spider-Men II story did show that he eventually became a member. Even before all that, USM played him up as the new kid on the block who the veterans either saw him as an annoyance or a kid who had a lot to learn before he could call himself a full-fledged superhero (also contrasting him as one of the only superheroes who wasn't corrupt, an a-hole, or both, but that's another topic). Spider-Man working with Nick Fury was invented for USM.

    Long story short, yes it was. (Heck, even Spidey looking up to Iron Man in the movies is true to the source material, despite some viewers taking exception to it because "not in the comics" -- and is yet another thing MCU Peter does not share with Miles).
    Well, they decided to mentor him right before he kicked the bucket, so that was kind of something that never really got off the ground much.

    I don't think people necessarily have an issue with Peter looking up to Iron Man so much as how it was executed within the movie and interfered with Peter's narrative of being Spider-Man.
    Maybe, but the devil is in the details. Besides, Ultimate Peter didn't make his own suit either.
    Although it just being a wrestling uniform is less problematic than a Starksuit in my opinion. I don't think it would be that difficult to contrive him of his own suit.
    Dunno; Miles never had Peter's eagerness to join the Avengers, never really had a mentor figure a la Iron Man (when his mom died, he just quit instead of carrying on while figuring out where he was going). While trying to find out how to be a hero his way is a parallel, it's handled differently for the characters.
    Well, he joined The Avengers almost immediately after jumping to 616.
    Dunno; the Spider-Verse movie touched on it a lot more; Flash's style of bullying was revised as an update of the original concept more then anything else.
    Not very effectively, in my opinion.
    Yeah, I'm one of those people who thinks that Ultimate Miles was a good concept on paper, but Bendis's first pass was a really bland character that didn't really live up to the full potential. Now Bendis's writing on the comics was hardly bad, but when reading the Miles comics, I just can't help but think that it was a mistake to not have Ultimate Jessica Drew take over the mantle (she was a grossly underused character). The Spider-Verse movie was a vast improvement (giving Miles better motivations for his origin story and making his personalty more then just the "nice kid" did wonders for him).
    Ultimate Jessica Drew couldn't really do it since she was already Spider-Woman.
    Guess we'll see how an MCU Miles works or doesn't when they get there. I do think that it's a bit early to tell what kind of staying power Miles will have. It's a safe bet that Peter will always be the "main" Spider-Man; he is one of the most iconic superheroes of all time and as we've seen from the Flash, the superstars will not be replaced even if the replacement was cemented as the "one true" hero. Kinda wonder if Spider-Man is moving towards Green Lantern-style roster; lotta heroes wearing the mask, but one is the default main one (although I hope Peter remains a more interesting character then Hal Jordan, poster boy of the "cis white male character who always trumps the better written legacy characters because he came first" club).
    I don't see the point of introducing Miles in the MCU when they either need to kill Holland off (which feels too soon after Endgame), turn him into Peter's sidekick (which is way too soon and equally problematic), or just have him be...there? I don't see the need to tell another teen Superhero story of a guy in a Spider-Man costume within the MCU.

    Peter is way too much the undisputed lead of this franchise compared to Hal. And I think Hal is an immensely fascinating and compelling character. I mean, he was also voiced by Josh Keaton, which I think says a lot .

  7. #907
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    It's hard to know what Ditko would have done with MJ. Clearly he intended for her to be very glamorous and beautiful, but I doubt she would have been nearly as popular without Romita's influence.
    At the very least, she did sound easy going and playful in her first line in ASM#25, so it seems that part of her personality was always planned.

    I also wonder what Ditko intended for Gwen Stacy given that she was a much spicier character than what she became under Lee/Romita. His Gwen looked like a femme fatale, was drawn with those "devil horn" hair clips, and was always dressed in red so I wonder if that was some foreshadowing on his part. Maybe Spider-Man's first female supervillain?
    Huh, never noticed the red thing, so I decided to check it out, and while always isn't accurate, every Ditko issue she was in had her using red, but she wore other colors too (Orange dress in #31, stripped blue and black shirt with another orange dress in #36, pink blouse with black spots, also in #36), but still, she wears red pretty often lol.

    Anyways, she doesn't show anything against Spidey, and the whole reasoning for her bitchiness are a bunch of weird misunderstandings with Peter, plus of the 3 Ditko love interests, she's the only one who really wonders about what's going on in Peter's life (And she's also the nastiest one when she decides to be a bitch, yeah, Gwen worked in extremes lol), so, maybe not for the villain thing? Unless something happened later, 'cause I doubt Gwen would be an actual demon since he wanted to keep Spidey grounded (Well, there were still aliens and a villain super powered by an asteroid, but magic was unlikely to happen).

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Just before the Death of Spider-Man story, Spider-Man was signed up for lessons from the Ultimates (complete with a scene with the members discussing the question based on their experiences) -- and the Spider-Men II story did show that he eventually became a member.
    While Cap did talk about training him, it never actually happened on-screen, and Spider-Men II only briefly shows what that led to, so overall Ultimate Peter wasn't mentored, and he barely shows up after he was.

    Long story short, yes it was. (Heck, even Spidey looking up to Iron Man in the movies is true to the source material, despite some viewers taking exception to it because "not in the comics" -- and is yet another thing MCU Peter does not share with Miles).
    Yeah, the whole Iron Man thing is from JMS' run with Peter, though with a very different context.

    Maybe, but the devil is in the details. Besides, Ultimate Peter didn't make his own suit either.
    Yeah, it was given by some guy so he doesn't look as ridiculous when fighting on the ring, doesn't make the situation in MCU any less weirdly arbitrary if that was the reasoning for Stark to give him a suit.

    Guess we'll see how an MCU Miles works or doesn't when they get there. I do think that it's a bit early to tell what kind of staying power Miles will have. It's a safe bet that Peter will always be the "main" Spider-Man; he is one of the most iconic superheroes of all time and as we've seen from the Flash, the superstars will not be replaced even if the replacement was cemented as the "one true" hero.
    Urgh, don't remind me, the whole shit of Barry coming back was unnecessary, and Wally getting sidelines just sucks, I hear that TV show has Barry stealing some of Wally's traits too...

    Kinda wonder if Spider-Man is moving towards Green Lantern-style roster; lotta heroes wearing the mask, but one is the default main one (although I hope Peter remains a more interesting character then Hal Jordan, poster boy of the "cis white male character who always trumps the better written legacy characters because he came first" club).
    Spidey kinda has this already, with him being considered the most important Spider-Character, even as recently as Sins Rising we have the other Spider-People talking very highly of him, "There's a reason they call him the best of us" (As Gwen said in ASM#850), he's not anywhere near as bad as Hal though, lack of presence in crossovers helps (He had little relevance in Spider-Geddon for example, remove him, and not much changes, Miles was even the main player in defeating the Morlums), plus no one like Geoff Johns to kiss his ass that hard, Marvel thankfully doesn't push him too hard, which is great because I'd hate if he was overwanked like Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Although it just being a wrestling uniform is less problematic than a Starksuit in my opinion. I don't think it would be that difficult to contrive him of his own suit.
    Specially when using Ultimate as a basis, could always have the same excuse.

    Ultimate Jessica Drew couldn't really do it since she was already Spider-Woman.
    That made me imagine Jessica pulling Helena Wayne from New 52's Earth 2, where she dresses as Batman lol.

    I don't see the point of introducing Miles in the MCU when they either need to kill Holland off (which feels too soon after Endgame), turn him into Peter's sidekick (which is way too soon and equally problematic), or just have him be...there? I don't see the need to tell another teen Superhero story of a guy in a Spider-Man costume within the MCU.
    Yeah, they'd have to pull a PS4 Spidey to have both, but they'd need a big time skip for Peter to be old enough to mentor someone, even then it can be complicated to make Miles have his own role.

    Peter is way too much the undisputed lead of this franchise compared to Hal.
    While true, there are times Hal is wanked too much, hell, Green Lanterns was Jessica's and Simon's comic, and the last issue ends with a Hal wank? With Jessica and Simon not doing much to stop Cyborg Supes with that poor man's White Lantern ring? Come on...

    And I think Hal is an immensely fascinating and compelling character. I mean, he was also voiced by Josh Keaton, which I think says a lot .
    Huh, wasn't aware of that, when was that? In that Green Lantern 3D cartoon?

  8. #908
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    At the very least, she did sound easy going and playful in her first line in ASM#25, so it seems that part of her personality was always planned.
    I think it's cool that a lot of MJ's best traits were happy accidents .
    Urgh, don't remind me, the whole shit of Barry coming back was unnecessary, and Wally getting sidelines just sucks, I hear that TV show has Barry stealing some of Wally's traits too...
    It becomes less pronounced as the show goes on (even though he ends up fighting Wally's villains) but where it counts he's pure Barry Allen.
    Spidey kinda has this already, with him being considered the most important Spider-Character, even as recently as Sins Rising we have the other Spider-People talking very highly of him, "There's a reason they call him the best of us" (As Gwen said in ASM#850), he's not anywhere near as bad as Hal though, lack of presence in crossovers helps (He had little relevance in Spider-Geddon for example, remove him, and not much changes, Miles was even the main player in defeating the Morlums), plus no one like Geoff Johns to kiss his ass that hard, Marvel thankfully doesn't push him too hard, which is great because I'd hate if he was overwanked like Batman.
    If we had a Johns they'd probably be kissing Norman's butt .

    (Slott was basically the Geoff Johns of Doc Ock, but I think Johns writes much better than Slott does).
    That made me imagine Jessica pulling Helena Wayne from New 52's Earth 2, where she dresses as Batman lol.
    Or what Cassandra Cain always planned to do.
    While true, there are times Hal is wanked too much, hell, Green Lanterns was Jessica's and Simon's comic, and the last issue ends with a Hal wank? With Jessica and Simon not doing much to stop Cyborg Supes with that poor man's White Lantern ring? Come on...
    I think it was because they had to consoldiate the GL books together and give a good finale before Morrison's revamp. I'm not defending sidelining Jessica and Simon but Hal has a pretty personal beef with Henshaw to warrant fighting him.
    Huh, wasn't aware of that, when was that? In that Green Lantern 3D cartoon?
    Yes, and in a few video games and Lego movies.

  9. #909
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's cool that a lot of MJ's best traits were happy accidents .
    I swear MJ is like a walking talking happy accident, a lot of stuff about her that makes her special weren't planned by the writers lol.

    It'd be even funnier if MJ turns out to be an accident too in-universe, as in, her mother getting pregnant with her not being planned .

    Still though, it's noticeable how easy going she sounded in that one line, and let's not forget this is Ditko we're talking about, guy who made too many characters be jerkasses, that one line implying MJ was easy going is noticeable.

    It becomes less pronounced as the show goes on (even though he ends up fighting Wally's villains) but where it counts he's pure Barry Allen.
    Good, the less of Wally's traits Barry steals, the better, I'm kind of okay with him fighting Wally's villains, can be interesting when heroes fight someone else outside of their rogues gallery, just don't hog all of 'em lol.

    If we had a Johns they'd probably be kissing Norman's butt .

    (Slott was basically the Geoff Johns of Doc Ock, but I think Johns writes much better than Slott does).
    When he's not killing D-listers at random too much, or missing the point of a character, yeah, he can write well, Sinestro Corps War was fun (Even if I disliked how much of a jobber Anti-Monitor was there).

    Although if Johns' writing pattern is any hint, he could end up writing Norman as less villanous, since he did make characters like Sinestro, Black Adam, and I think Orm in New 52, be less villanous (Not that those 3 are interchangeable, Sinestro is still an evil ass, Black Adam, is more complicated).

    Or what Cassandra Cain always planned to do.
    She planned to dress up as Batman? Huh... That's odd lol.

    I think it was because they had to consoldiate the GL books together and give a good finale before Morrison's revamp. I'm not defending sidelining Jessica and Simon but Hal has a pretty personal beef with Henshaw to warrant fighting him.
    Yeah I understand the whole personal beef with Henshaw, but it just shouldn't be happening in someone else's comic, and if it has to happen there (And it kinda has since Henshaw had that poor man's white lantern ring), don't make him take over the story that drastically.

    Yes, and in a few video games and Lego movies.
    I'd never be able to tell it's him, guy has a great voice range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post



    * I will say that the concept of "Parker Luck" and screwup hero is also a misunderstanding of Spider-Man and also problematic in a class sense...i.e. working class Peter being judged for not fulfilling certain middle-class norms and expectations.
    That's not what the Parker Luck means. The concept is Peter being unlucky due to the entire universe basically being out to get him.

    Also, pointing out when Peter does mess up his life through his own actions isn't class discrimination.

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    I’ve always been annoyed by how it’s portrayed that he has to be Spider-Man. It’s just so hard to believe that in a world where a majority of superheroes live and operate in New York.

  12. #912
    The Future is Now WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I’ve always been annoyed by how it’s portrayed that he has to be Spider-Man. It’s just so hard to believe that in a world where a majority of superheroes live and operate in New York.
    This literally doesn't make sense.
    Catching thieves just like flies for 58 years!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    This literally doesn't make sense.
    What do you mean by that?

  14. #914
    The Future is Now WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    What do you mean by that?
    Ah, a close reading of the post clairifed it for me. Never mind.

    But I do want to say that though New York isn't lacking for Superheroes, they all do different things. The Avengers and the Fantastic Four usually handle big world ending threats, the X-Men handle other mutant issues, and the street level heroes do that. There aren't too many more that operate in the area Spider-Man does, helping people and savings lives to taking on crime bosses to fighting fearsome foes like Doc Ock and Venom. He's that balance in a character that makes them enjoyable to read; small-scale enough to deal with the small crime, but big enough to go worldwide to take down the Sinister Six. Losing that would not be good for Marvel.
    Last edited by WebSlingWonder; 10-28-2020 at 09:44 AM.
    Catching thieves just like flies for 58 years!!

  15. #915
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, they decided to mentor him right before he kicked the bucket, so that was kind of something that never really got off the ground much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    While Cap did talk about training him, it never actually happened on-screen, and Spider-Men II only briefly shows what that led to, so overall Ultimate Peter wasn't mentored, and he barely shows up after he was.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think people necessarily have an issue with Peter looking up to Iron Man so much as how it was executed within the movie and interfered with Peter's narrative of being Spider-Man.
    Thought it was okay for that take, but that's me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Although it just being a wrestling uniform is less problematic than a Starksuit in my opinion. I don't think it would be that difficult to contrive him of his own suit.
    Maybe. In Ultimate, it was a running point that he didn't know how to sew, so was reduced to comically bad homemade costumes when he didn't have any other options (Mary Jane usually helped him replace them, but there was one stretch where they weren't speaking to each other, so he had to make due until the reconciled).

    [QUOTE=Frontier;5207844]Well, he joined The Avengers almost immediately after jumping to 616.[/quite]

    Secret Wars was my jumping off-point for Miles, so I didn't know that. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Not very effectively, in my opinion.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Ultimate Jessica Drew couldn't really do it since she was already Spider-Woman.
    Obviously she wouldn't be a Spider-Man, but I still think she should've been the character to succeed Peter as the mail Ultimate Spider-person instead of inventing a new character who's origin to tie them into the mythos was janky at best. (Course, we never would've gotten the Spider-Verse movie without Miles, so I guess it worked out in the end.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't see the point of introducing Miles in the MCU when they either need to kill Holland off (which feels too soon after Endgame), turn him into Peter's sidekick (which is way too soon and equally problematic), or just have him be...there? I don't see the need to tell another teen Superhero story of a guy in a Spider-Man costume within the MCU.
    I'd say save Miles for when Tom Holland is done with the franchise and preplan his exit so there's a logical transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Peter is way too much the undisputed lead of this franchise compared to Hal. And I think Hal is an immensely fascinating and compelling character. I mean, he was also voiced by Josh Keaton, which I think says a lot .
    In theory, any character can be given a good characterization, but I don't see that with Hal as the default. (Anyways, more my point was that like Green Lantern, Spider-Man is racking up a collection of other Spider heroes with their own compelling stories, but, like with Hal, none of them are ever going to supplant Peter.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, the whole Iron Man thing is from JMS' run with Peter, though with a very different context.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, it was given by some guy so he doesn't look as ridiculous when fighting on the ring, doesn't make the situation in MCU any less weirdly arbitrary if that was the reasoning for Stark to give him a suit.
    Guess I just didn't mind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Urgh, don't remind me, the whole shit of Barry coming back was unnecessary, and Wally getting sidelines just sucks, I hear that TV show has Barry stealing some of Wally's traits too...
    Sounds about right per most Barrys being Wally under a different name, but my point was that if Wally, a character who had been the "real" Flash for a generation in a franchise where the secret identity is secondary to the mask, what chance does Miles or anyone else have of replacing Peter, a character who just as important as the mask and is one of the primary superstars of the genre?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Spidey kinda has this already, with him being considered the most important Spider-Character, even as recently as Sins Rising we have the other Spider-People talking very highly of him, "There's a reason they call him the best of us" (As Gwen said in ASM#850), he's not anywhere near as bad as Hal though, lack of presence in crossovers helps (He had little relevance in Spider-Geddon for example, remove him, and not much changes, Miles was even the main player in defeating the Morlums), plus no one like Geoff Johns to kiss his ass that hard, Marvel thankfully doesn't push him too hard, which is great because I'd hate if he was overwanked like Batman.
    Suppose they don't need to push him that much, since he's already at the top as is? (Funny, I thought Johns was considered one of the great Lantern writers, but all I hear about lately is how he was too much of a Hal fanboy.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    While true, there are times Hal is wanked too much, hell, Green Lanterns was Jessica's and Simon's comic, and the last issue ends with a Hal wank? With Jessica and Simon not doing much to stop Cyborg Supes with that poor man's White Lantern ring? Come on...
    WTF?! I get that Hal will always be Lantern numero uno because he was the first and all that, but hijacking other characters' series? (Need to finish the GLs series, but man, was I hoping for something more satisfying then Simon and Jessica getting shafted in their swan song.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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