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  1. #841
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by la.forsaken View Post
    hmm... if i remember correctly Otto moved away from MJ. And that Otto simply did not fancy MJ.

    i taken otto is not infatuated by how a woman looks, given his prompt response to felecia with a punch.
    Up until Otto got a dose of conscience and realized MJ was in danger being close to him, he was definitely getting frustrated she wasn't putting out.

    Otto was already in a committed relationship and had his own bad history with Felicia so it makes sense he wouldn't give her a second though.

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How is Ock anything like Walter White?
    They were both middle-aged, bitter, nerdy men who experienced a mid-life crisis triggered by an event (Ock's accident/Walt's cancer) and became supervillains. Both are furthermore geniuses, have huge egos, and have gangster themes to their villain personas.

    Otto is the type of guy to watch Breaking Bad and see Walter as a hero.

  3. #843
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    They were both middle-aged, bitter, nerdy men who experienced a mid-life crisis triggered by an event (Ock's accident/Walt's cancer) and became supervillains. Both are furthermore geniuses, have huge egos, and have gangster themes to their villain personas.

    Otto is the type of guy to watch Breaking Bad and see Walter as a hero.
    so true Otto is basically Walter
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    so true Otto is basically Walter
    I would say he’s Dr. Hinelar if anyone understands that reference.

  5. #845
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    We really shouldn't be changing Peter's backstory anymore. This technically shouldn't be considered controversial, but the way people go about the characters makes it so that it is.

    Changing Peter to trans, black, latino, etc. is a dumb idea when there are lots of other characters that already exist that fill those niches (well not really trans, but give it time). Unfortunately, we don't want that because for some strange reason Spider-Man fans only care about three characters in the franchise: Peter, MJ, and Jameson.

    So, rather than using those other characters, we're forcing them to re-imagine Peter to fit all those different archetypes while also marginalizing all those other characters. It's sad.
    Who wants to make Peter trans or a racial minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    The reason why a lot of fans donít like satellite titles is because itís a lot of jumping around in books. Hard to keep track of everything.

    ASM was easily weakest series during the JMS era, so itís not like I didnít read the other Spider-Books.

    What is there some quota on main characters? Itís a comic book. They donít have to worry about casting; they can include as many characters as the writer wants.
    JMS did have a clear strategy with the focus on Peter, MJ and May, believing that previous runs had focused too much on giving supporting characters interesting stories at Peter's expense.

    It's a fair point that satellite books could go in a different direction, although that wasn't always the case.

    While some fans prefer satellite books, the sales are not that great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well the metaphor he often used to describe it was The Simpsons, which has negative continuity and Bart, Lisa, and Maggie never grow up.

    In either case, it wasn't really his call. Ultimate Spider-Man originated as a commission handed to Bendis by (then) Marvel President Bill Jemas. Jemas was the one who really came up with the "Spider-Man is about youth" ideology that has infected Marvel's handling of Spider-Man since then. Jemas wanted a teenage version of Spider-Man who never grew up. Joe Quesada actually opposed this because John Byrne's Spider-Man Chapter One had crashed and burned just a year back but Jemas was insistent (which of course makes it specially hypocritical that Quesada, without irony, cited USM's success later as proof that Spider-Man is about youth and would always succeed in that, when he knew well that USM would be an exception and not the rule). The opening arc of USM was co-plotted by Jemas and Bendis. So aging up Ultimate Peter was never truly on the cards. That version wasn't intended to really grow up, and wasn't concieved to. It was meant to demonstrate and prove, "Spider-Man should never have grown up and left high school" and so on.

    Bendis talks about this in his interview in Comics-Creators on Spider-Man. He also said another impetus for that was that ASM at that time (just before JMS signed on...Bendis started USM before JMS began) was really depressing and low-selling. Mary Jane had died, Peter was lonely and depressed and Bendis noted that Marvel felt that they needed a Spider-Man title that had that old time optimism again.



    Bendis didn't really have a sense of how long Ultimate Spider-Man would last in the early 2000s. Mark Bagley said that when he worked on USM, he thought after initial success it would last for some 40 issues tops. But then when they reached 60 issues and came within sight of breaking Lee-Kirby's record of longest writer-artist run (for Fantastic Four), they realized they would last. And even then 100 issues per year and so on and so forth still means 300 issues worth of high school stuff.



    Agreed. It's a pity that didn't come to pass. I imagine it would have been like the X-Men Evolution cartoon which started with teenage versions of the character and then aged them up and by the fourth season they graduated.



    They don't even get to Franklin IIRC mostly because a lot of fans of Fantastic Four aren't on board with Reed and Sue getting married or Sue giving birth to Franklin either (yeah, there are those...mostly Sue-Namor shippers).



    The appeal of USM as a teenage Spider-Man contrasted heavily against the 616 Peter who was an adult so editorially it made sense to distinguish the two versions of Spider-Man. One's in high school, the other version is older.

    When I say that USM was intended to never grow up, that doesn't mean for instance that there wasn't a possibility of aging Peter up or that Bendis didn't want to (like it's pretty obvious with USM Annual #3 that there were places he wanted to go with the characters that he couldn't while they were in high school). It's likely that Bendis maybe wanted to do that eventually. But the thing is nobody at the time knew how long Ultimate Marvel would last, how long Ultimate Spider-Man would last. There were anxieties if Ultimate Marvel could replace the 616 Continuity, and there were talks about that because in its early years Ultimate Marvel was outselling the main titles. So a lot of stuff was in flux...at least until the mid-2000s where it became clear that Ultimate Marvel's success was down to its early 21st Century zeitgeist and once that was giving away and fading it didn't really have much novelty.

    That set the plans in place for Ultimatum, which was intended to be the final story of Ultimate Marvel...until last minute when they chickened out and decided for a lame relaunch soft reboot instead and so they pumped out more stories. It was around this time Obama got elected and Bendis came up with plans for Miles. It's funny, the two characters from Ultimate Marvel that survived, which crossed into 616 were both created (or co-created) by Bendis in the Post-Ultimatum era. One was the Ultimate Reed Richards as an enemy which Bendis did in the Ultimate Doom trilogy series (Hickman would convert Reed into the Maker), and then Miles Morales.
    Whatever Ultimate Spider-Man started as, Quesada was free to go in a different direction after Jemas left. He chose not.

    Even if he didn't think that a teenage Spider-Man was a good idea for a book, he could be the convinced by the sales and critical success that it's a direction worth going in the future.

    I was unaware that Ultimatum was supposed to end the Ultimate Universe. There were some cancelled plans meant to come later. It does mark a departure from the ultimate books featuring new version of classic characters and stories, and going in a radically different direction (Wolverine's son, evil Reed Richards, Miles Morales.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I should tell you all that a lot of old-school Fantastic Four fans aren't on board with Reed and Sue getting married and Sue giving birth to Franklin. These guys wanted to ship Sue with Namor and/or other heroes, and weren't happy that Lee-Kirby pulled the trigger themselves meaning they can't even say (not that it matters since "creator's intent" and "originally introduced" are lame excuses) that the creators of FF didn't intend it or that it was never part of the design and so on. A common subplot with Susan is adultery fantasies with Namor and/or T'Challa, and sometimes Doctor Doom. Ultimate Fantastic Four (which inspired that wretched movie with Michael B. Jordan) had them as teenagers as well.

    Virtually no adaptation of Fantastic Four (barring the second Jessica Alba FF movie) features Reed and Sue getting married, as a couple, and as parents. It's never been exported out of 616. There are more adaptations with Peter-MJ as a married couple than Reed and Sue. So believe me if Marvel could, they'd go after the Richards' marriage as well. The reason they haven't is...to put it as brutally as possible...nobody really cares all that much if Reed and Sue are together/apart/divorced etcetera. Emotionally they never really got the attention of the audience the way Peter/MJ did, or Scott/Jean did or used-to-do. The really cool and interesting FF members were always Johnny Storm and Thing, people were vastly more upset when Johnny Storm dated and married Alicia Masters, the character Kirby/Lee intended as Ben Grimm's true love (and were pleased when they made that Alicia into a Skrull and annulled it). So Susan Storm's growth and change isn't comparable to Gwen Stacy. In the course of Kirby-Lee's run, they made Sue into a homemaker and mother, so that made her a little untouchable because nobody wants to read a Fantastic Four comic and see Susan Storm cheating on the father of her child, or see stories where this super-team fail to keep the little sprog alive, and so on. Fantastic Four always was a generally optimistic title...even under Jonathan Hickman.
    Most of the cartoons appear to have featured Reed and Sue as a married couple.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #846
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Even if he didn't think that a teenage Spider-Man was a good idea for a book, he could be the convinced by the sales and critical success that it's a direction worth going in the future.
    Point is Quesada was skeptical in 2000 because the idea failed with John Byrne. He knew first-hand that a "teenage Spider-Man" isn't inherently the most successful version of the character. But he justified OMD claiming it was.

    Most of the cartoons appear to have featured Reed and Sue as a married couple.
    Nope. I double checked. Most cartoons she's Susan Storm. That even extends to the Four's appearance in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon where Susan and Reed are unmarried. Likewise the most recent F4 series back in 2006, also unmarried then.

    Franklin Richards likewise has never appeared in any adaptation. Valeria is a more recent character so it makes sense but even she's a no-show.

  7. #847
    Fantastic Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Who wants to make Peter trans or a racial minority?

    JMS did have a clear strategy with the focus on Peter, MJ and May, believing that previous runs had focused too much on giving supporting characters interesting stories at Peter's expense.

    It's a fair point that satellite books could go in a different direction, although that wasn't always the case.

    While some fans prefer satellite books, the sales are not that great.

    Whatever Ultimate Spider-Man started as, Quesada was free to go in a different direction after Jemas left. He chose not.

    Even if he didn't think that a teenage Spider-Man was a good idea for a book, he could be the convinced by the sales and critical success that it's a direction worth going in the future.

    I was unaware that Ultimatum was supposed to end the Ultimate Universe. There were some cancelled plans meant to come later. It does mark a departure from the ultimate books featuring new version of classic characters and stories, and going in a radically different direction (Wolverine's son, evil Reed Richards, Miles Morales.)

    Most of the cartoons appear to have featured Reed and Sue as a married couple.
    I actually have read that Peter is something of a icon to the trans community. I get the impression it's more the Tom Holland version than the comics, and that it's pretty much centered on fan fiction not anyone campaigning for any version of the character to officially come out as trans.
    It's not exactly as if there's a lot of super hero role models for trans people to look up to. When you're excluded from representation you sometimes have to co-opt things that weren't meant for you, because there's basically nothing that is meant for you.

  8. #848
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Who wants to make Peter trans or a racial minority?
    Some people who are trans of racial minority who want a big name character to represent them I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Nope. I double checked. Most cartoons she's Susan Storm. That even extends to the Four's appearance in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon where Susan and Reed are unmarried. Likewise the most recent F4 series back in 2006, also unmarried then.
    I can understand why they weren't married in the 2006 cartoon, since they started the whole super-heroing thing recently so it'd be better to for them to wait, but EMH not having them married is weird, since they seem to be active for a while so being married would make sense... The hell does Marvel have against marriage? Specially from those two who have been married for most of their existance.

    Franklin Richards likewise has never appeared in any adaptation. Valeria is a more recent character so it makes sense but even she's a no-show.
    Can see why, again, unless it's a story that starts after they've been active for a few years, it's better to leave marriage and kids for later.

    Honestly, F4 would benefit a lot from a cartoon that has time skips like Young Justice, though hopefully without getting worse per season like it happens with YJ.

    Not saying that they would be the only ones to get more benefits from it, but F4 are the ones who kinda aged the most with the kids and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I actually have read that Peter is something of a icon to the trans community. I get the impression it's more the Tom Holland version than the comics, and that it's pretty much centered on fan fiction not anyone campaigning for any version of the character to officially come out as trans.
    It's not exactly as if there's a lot of super hero role models for trans people to look up to. When you're excluded from representation you sometimes have to co-opt things that weren't meant for you, because there's basically nothing that is meant for you.
    I'm confused, why Holland's in particular? Did they choose him because he's the most recent Spidey, or because he said something?

  9. #849
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I can understand why they weren't married in the 2006 cartoon, since they started the whole super-heroing thing recently so it'd be better to for them to wait, but EMH not having them married is weird, since they seem to be active for a while so being married would make sense... The hell does Marvel have against marriage?
    I think they were going for an early Lee/Kirby FF with their take.

  10. #850
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I actually have read that Peter is something of a icon to the trans community. I get the impression it's more the Tom Holland version than the comics, and that it's pretty much centered on fan fiction not anyone campaigning for any version of the character to officially come out as trans.
    It's not exactly as if there's a lot of super hero role models for trans people to look up to. When you're excluded from representation you sometimes have to co-opt things that weren't meant for you, because there's basically nothing that is meant for you.
    we deserve better, give us betty and felicia
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Guy
    There are creatures science refuses to recognize...but if new technology makes us question what is real...If OUR EYES SEE IT...IF OUR CAMERAS CAPTURE IT...DOES IT EXIST? ENTER A REALM WHERE FACT meets FICTION....SCIENCE meets LEGEND...WHERE NIGHTMARES COME TO LIFE...DO YOU BELIEVE?"

  11. #851
    Fantastic Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Some people who are trans of racial minority who want a big name character to represent them I guess.



    I can understand why they weren't married in the 2006 cartoon, since they started the whole super-heroing thing recently so it'd be better to for them to wait, but EMH not having them married is weird, since they seem to be active for a while so being married would make sense... The hell does Marvel have against marriage? Specially from those two who have been married for most of their existance.



    Can see why, again, unless it's a story that starts after they've been active for a few years, it's better to leave marriage and kids for later.

    Honestly, F4 would benefit a lot from a cartoon that has time skips like Young Justice, though hopefully without getting worse per season like it happens with YJ.

    Not saying that they would be the only ones to get more benefits from it, but F4 are the ones who kinda aged the most with the kids and all.



    I'm confused, why Holland's in particular? Did they choose him because he's the most recent Spidey, or because he said something?
    Holland has spoken up for trans rights, but I think it's largely just that he's the current Spidey.
    If you were going to pick one guy in the MCU to be a trans man, I can see why he'd be the one to pick. He's short and not very very masculine (not that a trans man can't be tall and masculine).
    I'm sympathetic to anyone looking for role models that aren't getting represented. As a gay kid growing up in the 70s and 80s there weren't gay role models.

  12. #852
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I can understand why they weren't married in the 2006 cartoon, since they started the whole super-heroing thing recently so it'd be better to for them to wait, but EMH not having them married is weird, since they seem to be active for a while so being married would make sense...
    In the comics, the two have been married for far longer than otherwise. But it's never really been exported outside. Ultimate Fantastic Four likewise never married the two...which helped with the whole Evil Reed Richards thing they went with later. Also the Josh Trank disaster of a movie...(where inexplicably Susan Storm doesn't accompany them on the mission where they get powers, and she gets it in some odd way separate from them...don't really ge tthat).

    The hell does Marvel have against marriage? Specially from those two who have been married for most of their existance.
    To be fair, it's not just Marvel. Warner Bros. has also been quite reluctant about exporting the Superman/Lois marriage as well. It's never been done in any live-action theatrical movie and in none of the animation series (and iirc, none of the DTV movies featured a) the actual wedding, b) them as a married status-quo). Like for instance, the DCAU, Bruce Timm and others kept pushing for an episode where Lois finds out about Clark's identity, and them becoming closer and they got vetoed by executives...even late in JLU. Zack Snyder has his flaws of course but among his redeeming attributes is the fact that he's a Clark/Lois shipper and he had Clark planning to propose to her, but the rest of those movies were so bad that he didn't stick around long enough to get them married in the movies. The exceptions so far is the Superman and Lois TV series from the 90s (the one with that actor who now supports Trump) and apparently a new series in the same continuity as Melissa Benoist. Weirdly, I think Batman is an exception with Chris Nolan's third Dark Knight film where it's implied in the final scenes that he and Selina got hitched in Florence (since she's wearing Martha's pearl necklace).

    There's also the Injustice video game where Superman and Lois were married, she got killed and he became an insane dictator...but I think it's fair to count that out and include it out. To be honest, we see a lot more versions of Superman as evil than as a married guy. Quesada and other Marvel execs keep using "the marriage doesn't show up in other adaptations" as an excuse but by that logic even Reed and Sue fail, even Clark and Lois fail. The reason why it doesn't show up is the obvious fact that each new adaptation feels it needs to reintroduce and do a new version for young kids and obviously they don't have the advantage of comics of being ongoing eternally come rain or shine, and not relying on actors who have competing contracts, limited shooting dates, and age to contend with.

    Peter/Mary Jane as a married couple have been exported far more often than them. Multiple video games in the 90s from Spider-Man v. The Kingpin to the Activison Games of 2000 and 2001, followed by Edge of Time (I believe), Web of Shadows. You have the Fox Cartoon, the Newspaper Strip, Spider-Girl, Into the Spider-Verse (both versions).
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 10-25-2020 at 12:03 PM.

  13. #853
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    I, on principle, kind of agree with the take about any kind of minority being able to sometimes claim characters for themselves. After all, it is not something that affects anyone. They can make as many fanarts of Peter as black, trans or anything else if they so desire, it helps with diversity and a bit of awareness, and most of the time people acknowledge that these characters are not like that in canon or anything like that, most don't even campaign to change them into that, but they just want to see represented in some way, and what better way than in the form of their favorite superhero? Peter Parker is an everyday man after all, to some degree you can insert yourself in him, and some people want to deepen that connection in their art. I think it's a very sincere form of admiration.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    I, on principle, kind of agree with the take about any kind of minority being able to sometimes claim characters for themselves. After all, it is not something that affects anyone. They can make as many fanarts of Peter as black, trans or anything else if they so desire, it helps with diversity and a bit of awareness, and most of the time people acknowledge that these characters are not like that in canon or anything like that, most don't even campaign to change them into that, but they just want to see represented in some way, and what better way than in the form of their favorite superhero? Peter Parker is an everyday man after all, to some degree you can insert yourself in him, and some people want to deepen that connection in their art. I think it's a very sincere form of admiration.
    I guess that just shows how pointless and useless Miles Morales, Anya Corazon, etc. are. /s

  15. #855
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think they were going for an early Lee/Kirby FF with their take.
    Where's 50's "family man" Reed, and Sue without force fields then?

    At least the EMH said they're in a relationship, but keeping it vague at least ('Cause I don't remember if they specified if they're married or not, specially with how much F4 are rather minor characters) if they're married or not is weird, don't see why they were going for early Kirby shit too and specifically choose pre-marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Holland has spoken up for trans rights, but I think it's largely just that he's the current Spidey.
    If you were going to pick one guy in the MCU to be a trans man, I can see why he'd be the one to pick. He's short and not very very masculine (not that a trans man can't be tall and masculine).
    I'm sympathetic to anyone looking for role models that aren't getting represented. As a gay kid growing up in the 70s and 80s there weren't gay role models.
    Ah, so it's partially both of my guesses then, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the comics, the two have been married for far longer than otherwise. But it's never really been exported outside. Ultimate Fantastic Four likewise never married the two...which helped with the whole Evil Reed Richards thing they went with later. Also the Josh Trank disaster of a movie...(where inexplicably Susan Storm doesn't accompany them on the mission where they get powers, and she gets it in some odd way separate from them...don't really ge tthat).
    At the very least, Ultimate in general isn't exactly supposed to follow the same shit as 616, like how they made Betty be a PR bitch with a fetish for cannibalism, so no marriage Reed and Sue, or even not making both be together, can see why.

    Wasn't aware of that movie not even having Sue be on the mission that gives them their powers though, talk about weird lol.

    To be fair, it's not just Marvel. Warner Bros. has also been quite reluctant about exporting the Superman/Lois marriage as well. It's never been done in any live-action theatrical movie and in none of the animation series (and iirc, none of the DTV movies featured a) the actual wedding, b) them as a married status-quo). Like for instance, the DCAU, Bruce Timm and others kept pushing for an episode where Lois finds out about Clark's identity, and them becoming closer and they got vetoed by executives...even late in JLU.
    Funny that while it's not said, it seemed that Lord Supes and Lois were married, or at least they seemed to live in the same apartment, but the relationship was unhealthy as fuck, since, y'know, Lord Supes being a dictator and all.

    Lois in JL cartoon didn't even show up much too, I remember only twice, in the episode where she interviews Lord Supes, thinking he was the usual Supes, and in an episode where it shows her and Supes having a picnic, at least there was that.

    Zack Snyder has his flaws of course but among his redeeming attributes is the fact that he's a Clark/Lois shipper and he had Clark planning to propose to her, but the rest of those movies were so bad that he didn't stick around long enough to get them married in the movies. The exceptions so far is the Superman and Lois TV series from the 90s (the one with that actor who now supports Trump) and apparently a new series in the same continuity as Melissa Benoist. Weirdly, I think Batman is an exception with Chris Nolan's third Dark Knight film where it's implied in the final scenes that he and Selina got hitched in Florence (since she's wearing Martha's pearl necklace).
    And the 90's TV series had that weird shit with DC wanting the comics Supes to get married around the same time as the TV series one, which is why Death of Superman even happened, since one of the writers jokingly suggested to kill Supes to delay the marriage.

    Peter/Mary Jane as a married couple have been exported far more often than them. Multiple video games in the 90s from Spider-Man v. The Kingpin to the Activison Games of 2000 and 2001, followed by Edge of Time (I believe), Web of Shadows. You have the Fox Cartoon, the Newspaper Strip, Spider-Girl, Into the Spider-Verse (both versions).
    I don't think Web of Shadows specifically mentions if they're married, but it's been a while.

    Edge of Time at least has Peter together with MJ, but not sure if it specifies them being married too.

    Also remembered one Japanese game, Amazing Spider-Man Lethal foes, it was released in the 90's, and unless the fan translation screwed up, that one specifically calls MJ Peter's girlfriend, for whatever reason:



    I remember watching this video years ago and finding that detail weird lol.

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