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  1. #856
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Where's 50's "family man" Reed, and Sue without force fields then?

    At least the EMH said they're in a relationship, but keeping it vague at least ('Cause I don't remember if they specified if they're married or not, specially with how much F4 are rather minor characters) if they're married or not is weird, don't see why they were going for early Kirby shit too and specifically choose pre-marriage.
    EMH had a very modernized Silver Age aesthetic in terms of characters and their roles, at least to some extent, so that might have played a part. That and the EMH universe being fairly burgeoning in terms of the heroes and teams. I don't remember how explicit they were but it sounded like the FF were a few months ahead of The Avengers in terms of their public debut.

  2. #857
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I actually have read that Peter is something of a icon to the trans community. I get the impression it's more the Tom Holland version than the comics, and that it's pretty much centered on fan fiction not anyone campaigning for any version of the character to officially come out as trans.
    It's not exactly as if there's a lot of super hero role models for trans people to look up to. When you're excluded from representation you sometimes have to co-opt things that weren't meant for you, because there's basically nothing that is meant for you.
    That's fair.

    It's easy to forget that there are all sorts of fan subcultures. Some of it becomes prominent enough to get exposure elsewhere (Bucky/ Steve shippers) but much of it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Point is Quesada was skeptical in 2000 because the idea failed with John Byrne. He knew first-hand that a "teenage Spider-Man" isn't inherently the most successful version of the character. But he justified OMD claiming it was.



    Nope. I double checked. Most cartoons she's Susan Storm. That even extends to the Four's appearance in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon where Susan and Reed are unmarried. Likewise the most recent F4 series back in 2006, also unmarried then.

    Franklin Richards likewise has never appeared in any adaptation. Valeria is a more recent character so it makes sense but even she's a no-show.
    It is possible that the success of Ultimate Spider-Man changed Quesada's mind on what is the most successful version of the hero (Byrne also botched a married Spider-Man.)

    The Fantastic Four seem to be married in the 1967 cartoon, the 1978 cartoon with HERBIE, and the 1994 cartoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the comics, the two have been married for far longer than otherwise. But it's never really been exported outside. Ultimate Fantastic Four likewise never married the two...which helped with the whole Evil Reed Richards thing they went with later. Also the Josh Trank disaster of a movie...(where inexplicably Susan Storm doesn't accompany them on the mission where they get powers, and she gets it in some odd way separate from them...don't really ge tthat).



    To be fair, it's not just Marvel. Warner Bros. has also been quite reluctant about exporting the Superman/Lois marriage as well. It's never been done in any live-action theatrical movie and in none of the animation series (and iirc, none of the DTV movies featured a) the actual wedding, b) them as a married status-quo). Like for instance, the DCAU, Bruce Timm and others kept pushing for an episode where Lois finds out about Clark's identity, and them becoming closer and they got vetoed by executives...even late in JLU. Zack Snyder has his flaws of course but among his redeeming attributes is the fact that he's a Clark/Lois shipper and he had Clark planning to propose to her, but the rest of those movies were so bad that he didn't stick around long enough to get them married in the movies. The exceptions so far is the Superman and Lois TV series from the 90s (the one with that actor who now supports Trump) and apparently a new series in the same continuity as Melissa Benoist. Weirdly, I think Batman is an exception with Chris Nolan's third Dark Knight film where it's implied in the final scenes that he and Selina got hitched in Florence (since she's wearing Martha's pearl necklace).

    There's also the Injustice video game where Superman and Lois were married, she got killed and he became an insane dictator...but I think it's fair to count that out and include it out. To be honest, we see a lot more versions of Superman as evil than as a married guy. Quesada and other Marvel execs keep using "the marriage doesn't show up in other adaptations" as an excuse but by that logic even Reed and Sue fail, even Clark and Lois fail. The reason why it doesn't show up is the obvious fact that each new adaptation feels it needs to reintroduce and do a new version for young kids and obviously they don't have the advantage of comics of being ongoing eternally come rain or shine, and not relying on actors who have competing contracts, limited shooting dates, and age to contend with.

    Peter/Mary Jane as a married couple have been exported far more often than them. Multiple video games in the 90s from Spider-Man v. The Kingpin to the Activison Games of 2000 and 2001, followed by Edge of Time (I believe), Web of Shadows. You have the Fox Cartoon, the Newspaper Strip, Spider-Girl, Into the Spider-Verse (both versions).
    The Ultimate Fantastic Four featured teen versions of the characters.

    It influenced the Josh Trank film, which featured a Fantastic Four younger than the usual comics.

    It does make sense that the films would start with Reed and Sue unmarried, as their relationship can be part of a subsequent arc.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #858
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    Since we are on the topic of Peter Parker as representation...Peter Parker is arguably a good icon for neurodivergent people too. I think you can make a strong argument he shows signs of ADHD and OCD.

    Just some evidence I noticed over the years:

    1. Peter as a teen had a tendency to get lost in his head, hyperfocus on activities he likes, and generally had a hard time fitting in. He is also often portrayed as very neurotic, which overlaps with ADHD and OCD.

    2. Peter tends to blame himself for everything and (more importantly) for every little thing. If Peter has ADHD, this behavior is more explainable as people with ADHD can be very hard on themselves.

    3. Peter in his teen years has shown a lack of impulse control, particularly when he used to snap at others in the Lee/Ditko era. As Spider-Man, multiple characters have noted his inability to stay quiet or to simply not move. (Doctor Strange jokes in JMS' run that standing still and quiet for a few minutes would be the hardest thing ever for Peter.)

    4. Other teenage characters in similar circumstances have shown they're a bit better at getting organized and balancing out their dual-lives than Peter was at the same age. Peter himself has noticed this on at least one occasion. This suggests that Peter's earlier difficulties at balancing out his dual-lives maybe can't entirely be attributed to his age. Peter might have a harder-than-average difficulty at getting organized due to ADHD.

    5. People with ADHD are more likely to rely on nonlinear thinking. Peter's plans and tactics as Spider-Man usually comes off more nonlinear than the ones Batman or Captain America use in battle. Also in ITSV, both Peters had the most nonlinear narration. Miles and Gwen were able to give a clear, linear explanation of their origins while Peter was all over the place ("Blah blah blah, saved the city some more...by the way, don't invest in a Spidey-themed restaurant...anyways, then this portal opened and...").

    I would never want Marvel to confirm whether or not Peter is neurodivergent in any way because I don't think it would be fair to everyone else, but you can make a fanfic case for it nonetheless. Like someone else mentioned, the strength of the character is that he is an everyday man that can be interpreted in many different ways and that everyone can insert themselves into to one extent or another.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-25-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  4. #859
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It is possible that the success of Ultimate Spider-Man changed Quesada's mind on what is the most successful version of the hero (Byrne also botched a married Spider-Man.)
    Again you miss the point. Spider-Man's success doesn't have any thing to do with what the age of the character is. Ultimate Spider-Man's success does not by itself prove the viability of a teenage Spider-Man, all it proves is that when placed against the depressing status-quo of Howard Mackie's widower Spider-Man, audiences would like a fresh, optimistic take on Spider-Man set in high school.

    Quesada took the wrong lesson from USM's success. That's the point.

    The Fantastic Four seem to be married in the 1967 cartoon, the 1978 cartoon with HERBIE, and the 1994 cartoon.
    I just checked, you seem to be right about the 1967 cartoon (Although they were married from the start before they got powers) but otherwise were shown sleeping in separate beds (golden age hollywood style) and so on. They weren't married however in the HERBIE cartoon and the 1994 one, she's called Susan Storm in both, and marital status doesn't seem to be referred to there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Since we are on the topic of Peter Parker as representation...Peter Parker is arguably a good icon for neurodivergent people too. I think you can make a strong argument he shows signs of ADHD and OCD.

    Just some evidence I noticed over the years:

    1. Peter as a teen had a tendency to get lost in his head, hyperfocus on activities he likes, and generally had a hard time fitting in. He is also often portrayed as very neurotic, which overlaps with ADHD and OCD.

    2. Peter tends to blame himself for everything and (more importantly) for every little thing. If Peter has ADHD, this behavior is more explainable as people with ADHD can be very hard on themselves.

    3. Peter in his teen years has shown a lack of impulse control, particularly when he used to snap at others in the Lee/Ditko era. As Spider-Man, multiple characters have noted his inability to stay quiet or to simply not move. (Doctor Strange jokes in JMS' run that standing still and quiet for a few minutes would be the hardest thing ever for Peter.)

    4. Other teenage characters in similar circumstances have shown they're a bit better at getting organized and balancing out their dual-lives than Peter was at the same age. Peter himself has noticed this on at least one occasion on. This suggests that Peter's earlier difficulties at balancing out his dual-lives maybe can't entirely be attributed to his age. Peter might have a harder-than-average difficulty at getting organized due to ADHD.

    5. People with ADHD are more likely to rely on nonlinear thinking. Peter's plans and tactics as Spider-Man usually comes off more nonlinear than the ones Batman or Captain America use in battle. Also in ITSV, both Peters had the most nonlinear narration. Miles and Gwen were able to give a clear, linear explanation of their origins while Peter was all over the place ("Blah blah blah, saved the city some more...by the way, don't invest in a Spidey-themed restaurant...anyways, then this portal opened and...").

    I would never want Marvel to confirm whether or not Peter is neurodivergent in any way because I don't think it would be fair to everyone else, but you can make a fanfic case for it nonetheless. Like someone else mentioned, the strength of the character is that he is an everyday man that can be interpreted in many different ways and that everyone can insert themselves into to one extent or another.
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  5. #860
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    EMH had a very modernized Silver Age aesthetic in terms of characters and their roles, at least to some extent, so that might have played a part. That and the EMH universe being fairly burgeoning in terms of the heroes and teams. I don't remember how explicit they were but it sounded like the FF were a few months ahead of The Avengers in terms of their public debut.
    It's honestly very arbitrary then, picking obviously more modern stuff from comics like Avengers being more directly connected with SHIELD, but keeping vague something like whether or not Reed and Sue are married? Yeah lol.

    Understandable the lack of marriage if F4 debutted recently though, but I don't remember anything indicating they debutted before or after Avengers, although past adventures were alluded to, and it was even specifically mentioned that Doom threw the Baxter building to space once, but again, not specified how long they've been around, unless another episode besides Season 2's first episode talks about them more, since that's where I remember most info about them is mentioned, even if there isn't much.

  6. #861
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It's honestly very arbitrary then, picking obviously more modern stuff from comics like Avengers being more directly connected with SHIELD, but keeping vague something like whether or not Reed and Sue are married? Yeah lol.

    Understandable the lack of marriage if F4 debutted recently though, but I don't remember anything indicating they debutted before or after Avengers, although past adventures were alluded to, and it was even specifically mentioned that Doom threw the Baxter building to space once, but again, not specified how long they've been around, unless another episode besides Season 2's first episode talks about them more, since that's where I remember most info about them is mentioned, even if there isn't much.
    They weren't really that close with SHIELD. They were pretty much independent operators who SHIELD tolerated but sometimes had friction against before things went full antagonistic when Hill took over.

    I think it was pretty early in the EMH where the FF had implied they'd been around for a while, long enough to fight a few Supervillains, while The Avengers had only just started out. So they had been around but weren't setting themselves up to be a main Superhero team like The Avengers were.

  7. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I guess that just shows how pointless and useless Miles Morales, Anya Corazon, etc. are. /s
    This is why I am big on the idea of Miles being an artist and coming from a different perspective than Peter. The premise of ITSV and of the video game has a good chance of sticking around long-term, while promoting Miles solely on the need for diversity means he could be forgotten about if we ever get a black version of Peter Parker.

  8. #863
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    They weren't really that close with SHIELD. They were pretty much independent operators who SHIELD tolerated but sometimes had friction against before things went full antagonistic when Hill took over.
    Huh, then I guess I'm remembering badly, did SHIELD ever ask for their help at least?

    I think it was pretty early in the EMH where the FF had implied they'd been around for a while, long enough to fight a few Supervillains, while The Avengers had only just started out. So they had been around but weren't setting themselves up to be a main Superhero team like The Avengers were.
    Checked out Season 2 episode 1 here, when Skrull Cap asks Ben about Doom, Ben says that Doom has been obssessed with Reed for years, "Always trying to prove he's smarter, or try to take over the world, the usual", so yeah, if Ben only mentioned the "trying to prove he's smarter" part, then it'd be vague if Doom has been annoying Reed before he got his powers, but mentioning both that and world domination, does make it more likely they've been around as F4 for a few years, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    This is why I am big on the idea of Miles being an artist and coming from a different perspective than Peter. The premise of ITSV and of the video game has a good chance of sticking around long-term, while promoting Miles solely on the need for diversity means he could be forgotten about if we ever get a black version of Peter Parker.
    Very unlikely we'd get a black Peter with Miles around to be fair, he's popular and known to the public, it'd be weird to bother making Peter black when Miles kinda fills that role (kinda 'cause, remember, he's not just black, he's half Hispanic too).

  9. #864
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Huh, then I guess I'm remembering badly, did SHIELD ever ask for their help at least?
    Directly? I don't remember. But it probably would've been when Fury was in charge, if at all. But they weren't really working with SHIELD.

  10. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    This is why I am big on the idea of Miles being an artist and coming from a different perspective than Peter. The premise of ITSV and of the video game has a good chance of sticking around long-term, while promoting Miles solely on the need for diversity means he could be forgotten about if we ever get a black version of Peter Parker.
    Honestly, with them downplaying Peter's intelligence, it might not matter.

    I also always saw him as a future politician as well so I'm kinda biased.

  11. #866
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    Shed was a great lizard story but the writers got cold feet and wouldn’t commit

  12. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Honestly, with them downplaying Peter's intelligence, it might not matter.

    I also always saw him as a future politician as well so I'm kinda biased.
    Who has downplayed Peter's intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Very unlikely we'd get a black Peter with Miles around to be fair, he's popular and known to the public, it'd be weird to bother making Peter black when Miles kinda fills that role (kinda 'cause, remember, he's not just black, he's half Hispanic too).
    You may be right, but it's only because the last two years have been so kind to Miles. The last two years did more for Miles than 2011-17 did combined. At this point, Miles might survive the arrival of a Black or Hispanic Peter.

    This is a very recent change in our zeitgeist, though. Just three years ago, MCU Peter stole from Miles like no tomorrow and no one noticed besides hardcore fans like us (and even most of us didn't give much of a shit).

    Just three years ago, a Black or Hispanic Peter would have crushed Miles like a bug and turned him into sloppy seconds.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-25-2020 at 10:05 PM.

  13. #868
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    ...You know... what color are Peter’s eyes supposed to be? I’ve seen them all over the place... however, I’m not sure if anyone cares enough for it to be controversial, but I like Peter’s eyes being brown the most. Peter being the boring brown haired, brown eyed white guy sells his mediocre civilian design... though...to tell you the truth...brown eyes might actually make him stand out more as most Caucasians in comics have blue (sometimes green) eyes...

  14. #869
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    You may be right, but it's only because the last two years have been so kind to Miles. The last two years did more for Miles than 2011-17 did combined. At this point, Miles might survive the arrival of a Black or Hispanic Peter.
    Oh yeah, absolutely, thinking of it, before shit like Spider-Verse, I think Miles was a lot like Supergirl, meaning that the general public knows that he exists, but not much beyond that.

    This is a very recent change in our zeitgeist, though. Just three years ago, MCU Peter stole from Miles like no tomorrow and no one noticed besides hardcore fans like us (and even most of us didn't give much of a shit).
    I once was called a troll here for pointing out that MCU Peter takes more traits from Miles than Peter himself lol.

    I remember someone on twitter posted some comic book pages that have very similar moments between Miles and Tony, and MCU Peter and Tony, and people got pissed at that.

    So yeah, for whatever reason, pointing out that MCU Peter stole from Miles can make people angry.

    Just three years ago, a Black or Hispanic Peter would have crushed Miles like a bug and turned him into sloppy seconds.
    Wonder how long that one would last though, 'cause Peter being white is really the default.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    ...You know... what color are Peter’s eyes supposed to be? I’ve seen them all over the place... however, I’m not sure if anyone cares enough for it to be controversial, but I like Peter’s eyes being brown the most. Peter being the boring brown haired, brown eyed white guy sells his mediocre civilian design... though...to tell you the truth...brown eyes might actually make him stand out more as most Caucasians in comics have blue (sometimes green) eyes...
    Most times they're brown, but there are adaptations that change their color like Marvel's Spider-Man making them green, I think the 90's cartoon made them green too? At least I don't think they were brown there...
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-25-2020 at 11:15 PM.

  15. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    ...You know... what color are Peter’s eyes supposed to be? I’ve seen them all over the place... however, I’m not sure if anyone cares enough for it to be controversial, but I like Peter’s eyes being brown the most. Peter being the boring brown haired, brown eyed white guy sells his mediocre civilian design... though...to tell you the truth...brown eyes might actually make him stand out more as most Caucasians in comics have blue (sometimes green) eyes...
    They alternate between blue and brown. Only his hair is consistently portrayed as one color (brown).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    So yeah, for whatever reason, pointing out that MCU Peter stole from Miles can make people angry.
    I noticed a lot less anger recently. It probably has to do with the novelty factor wearing off. It happens with every new version, good or bad. Once enough time passes and people aren't as hyped up by something, they will be more open to critiques of it.

    I'm honestly more surprised by the lack of backlash to MCU Peter borrowing so much from Miles. If we think about it, MCU Spider-Man is technically the least inclusive version of Spider-Man to ever exist. By stealing so much from Miles, you are either making it impossible or harder-than-usual for MCU Miles to be included. That is worse than just doing classic Peter Parker and making him white, because at least that makes room for Miles.

    I mean, there is backlash towards the MCU supposedly whitewashing Captain Marvel (even though they didn't), but there's no backlash to the MCU essentially whitewashing Miles. There was even a push by a loud-but-vocal minority of people on the internet to get the Feige to use Miles instead of Peter back when the second reboot was announced. Their reasoning was diversity-based, so they would have definitely taken issue with what we got. But as early as Homecoming, those people seemed to dissapear or not care anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Wonder how long that one would last though, 'cause Peter being white is really the default.
    616 Peter will probably always be white for continuity reasons. But no future version of Peter technically has to be. If they ever launch another alternate continuity like Ultimate, or a new TV show, or a new film reboot or video game...I think those versions can be white, black, Asian, Hispanic, you name it.

    Will it happen? I don't know. I noticed less of a demand for diversity through Peter Parker than there was 10 years ago. It's likely a by-product of the success of other minority characters. I'm not just talking about Miles Morales, but also characters like Kamala Khan who are very similar to Peter. The success of those characters has led to even liberal fans envisioning Peter Parker as "always white", or "the white Spider-Man", even though that's not what he was originally envisioned as. It's kinda ironic but the push for diversity might have culturally cemented Peter as Caucasian.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-26-2020 at 12:48 PM.

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