Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Lukmendes]

My controversial opinion.... I LOVE Fridging. Every RPG character I've ever made has a list of family, friends, and loved ones that the DM can threaten to motivate my character. It's really writing 101. Everyone from Aunt May to Robin, to The Waynes to Gwen to Uncle ben... Their deaths were there for the sole purpose of making the heroes better. and it WORKS.

Gwen's death is an odd one, while it looks like fridging, her death was only there so Conway could make Peter end up with his redhead waifu, so, it's another cliché.

It does matter that it was a woman. That was the whole point.

As with everything, we now have loud binary pro and anti fridgers who only see the simplest of elements without understanding the thing they're for or against.

The POINT of terming the phrase "fridging" was that Gail saw women in comics being used as murder fodder with increased frequency and excessive violence. Almost to the point of fetish. This had escalated massively from the mid-80's through to the 90's and she felt that it was disgusting, misogynistic, degrading and excluded real world girls/women from the medium.

She wasn't wrong, the whole era is pretty disgusting when viewed through that lens.

There's a huge difference between being murdered off screen and stuffed into a fridge just to make Kyle angry/sad for an issue (he was going to be GL regardless), and Superman's noble, heroic self-sacrificing death. Ice's turn to madness and death vs Batman defeating an army of foes to finally fall at the last.

Even if you compare it to Uncle Ben's death, serving the same narrative purpose, there is so much dignity in Ben's death. It not only taught Peter several important life lessons but also put him on the path to become a great hero. Alexis' death was for shock value and pushed Kyle to... what? Be angry then sad for a bit? Ben's death was to create Spider-man as a hero. Alexis' death was there because of an outdated 'heroes need tragedy' trope and was presented with absolutely no dignity whatsoever. Frankly, it's laugh out loud garbage.

Alexis could have served the exact same purpose if Major Force had broken in, threatened her and she'd left Kyle out of fear.

I mean, original meaning of whatever stuff has matters little, words and terms are not static, and they can't be, fridging nowadays is arbitrarily defined, it's basically only used for people to whine about a character being killed.

The trope that describes Simone's original meaning the best is "Disposable woman" anyways, fridging became something else, something very poorly defined, but hey lol.

The fact that you can't see the difference between the deaths of Alexis and Aerith, Aunt May or the Waynes just goes to show you don't love "fridging." You don't even understand it.

Funny you mention Aerith, her death had basically the same reaction from the fanbase and writers as Gwen's, to the point both are stupid enough to think she was a saint, when she was anything but lol.

Alfred's death which was done only to make Bruce angry and he had no agency in it felt a lot more like fridging than a lot of the ones people call fridging nowadays

Alfred is dead? Man, he's the best Batman character...

If Uncle Ben had just been injured or put in a coma instead of killed the shock would have turned Peter to a very similar path he is on now.There was no need to kill him off.

Even if he was put in a coma, it could still be seen as fridging, 'cause again, the way TV tropes defines it says that another character is made to suffer, not necessarily killed.

And your Major Force thing was done by Venom to MJ, which may have been retconned to actually physically hit her but either ways.Not sure which came first anyway, just saying if it came later it would be a copy.

Kyle debutted in January 1994, by that time Maximum Carnage had already happened, and in July of that same year Clone Saga would start, and a month later, Alex gets fridged, whatever **** Venom did with MJ would already have happened at the time.

[Jman27]

I like Marisa Tomei Aunt May

[phantom1592]

It does matter that it was a woman. That was the whole point.

As with everything, we now have loud binary pro and anti fridgers who only see the simplest of elements without understanding the thing they're for or against.

The POINT of terming the phrase "fridging" was that Gail saw women in comics being used as murder fodder with increased frequency and excessive violence. Almost to the point of fetish. This had escalated massively from the mid-80's through to the 90's and she felt that it was disgusting, misogynistic, degrading and excluded real world girls/women from the medium.

She wasn't wrong, the whole era is pretty disgusting when viewed through that lens.

There's a huge difference between being murdered off screen and stuffed into a fridge just to make Kyle angry/sad for an issue (he was going to be GL regardless), and Superman's noble, heroic self-sacrificing death. Ice's turn to madness and death vs Batman defeating an army of foes to finally fall at the last.

Even if you compare it to Uncle Ben's death, serving the same narrative purpose, there is so much dignity in Ben's death. It not only taught Peter several important life lessons but also put him on the path to become a great hero. Alexis' death was for shock value and pushed Kyle to... what? Be angry then sad for a bit? Ben's death was to create Spider-man as a hero. Alexis' death was there because of an outdated 'heroes need tragedy' trope and was presented with absolutely no dignity whatsoever. Frankly, it's laugh out loud garbage.

Alexis could have served the exact same purpose if Major Force had broken in, threatened her and she'd left Kyle out of fear.

I still say Gail was 'wrong'. It wasn't an issue about 'women'. It was an issue of violence in comics in general. In the 80's and 90's everything was trying to be darker and grittier. Every writer was trying to 'one up' the last guy who killed a side character. Remember this was after we already saw Robin beaten to death with a crowbar and lying in a pool of his own blood. As Spiderfan pointed out, Breaking and threatening the girlfriend and chasing her away... that's already been done. That's not 'shock value'. That's not going to impress anyone with their 'mature audience'.

It wasn't about victimizing women... it was about shock and awe. and that never really changed. As comics keep going, the expected level of violence and shock has only grown. Going through the blowing up the school children in Civil War to the utter blood bath of Infinite Crisis... Nothing's changing. It's just trying to see how much shock they can get away with... and trying to push for a little bit more. Whatever disturbs you the most is what button they're going to push.

But looking at just the dead girlfriends as problem really makes me wonder why people are ignoring the kids, friends, parents, and men who are also victimized for the sake of shock and/or pushing the hero to new levels.



And really.... Uncle Ben... Dignity? How so? He was in 5 panels of that story and only spoke in 2 of them. Neither of them were particular intersiting. "You're not fooling me, I know you're awake and it's time for school"...... and "Don't fatten him up too much, I can barely outwrestle him now." Any dignity to Ben's death was all retconned later in flashbacks and reimaginings.

[PCN24454]

Funny you mention Aerith, her death had basically the same reaction from the fanbase and writers as Gwen's, to the point both are stupid enough to think she was a saint, when she was anything but lol.

You say that as though they need to be saints.

[TinkerSpider]

Yep, this. Doesn't matter if it's a woman... doesn't matter if it's an 'established' character. The trope is all about this idea that all characters should have agency and there are no such things as 'main characters' and 'supporting characters'. If a character's death is there to motivate someone on to greater heroics... It's a 'fridging'.

No, that's not what fridging means.

Fridging is killing off a character for no other purpose than to use violence to make a main character sad/angry as a plot device - and because it is a plot device, the death has no other impact on the story or the main character.

Uncle Ben is not fridging because his death is a major story catalyst - not just a plot device - that impacts Peter's character to this day. Gwen is not fridging because her death led to lasting character growth for Peter, MJ, Harry and others, and pushed the story into new directions.

Mattie Franklin is fridging. She was tortured and killed for no other reason than to make the reader feel sad/make Peter and others feel sad, but her death didn't affect lasting character change nor move the story forward. It was violence for violence's sake, and that's what Gail Simone and others were protesting - especially because women were disproportionately the victims of violence in comics just for funsies.

I can't believe the momentum that this complaint fad has gotten, especially over 'Alexis'. She literally was in the book 2 issues before her death got Kyle off the couch and into avenging mode. It wasn't an insult to her character... it was the PURPOSE of her character.

Congrats, you just explained why Women in Refrigerators was created.

[Lukmendes]

You say that as though they need to be saints.

They don't, it's just funny Gwen and Aerith had the fans and writers talking about them like they were saints at any point, just a case of people matyrizing the characters, and it's specially funny in Gwen's case 'cause of how much she definitely wasn't a saint.

[PCN24454]

They don't, it's just funny Gwen and Aerith had the fans and writers talking about them like they were saints at any point, just a case of people matyrizing the characters, and it's specially funny in Gwen's case 'cause of how much she definitely wasn't a saint.

That's more or less how I feel about Peter and MJ's marriage after OMD.

[HypnoHustler]

They don't, it's just funny Gwen and Aerith had the fans and writers talking about them like they were saints at any point, just a case of people matyrizing the characters, and it's specially funny in Gwen's case 'cause of how much she definitely wasn't a saint.

She wasn’t even a character.

[PCN24454]

She wasn’t even a character.

I know. I felt the same way about Aunt May and Doc Ock in the PS4 game.

[Lukmendes]

That's more or less how I feel about Peter and MJ's marriage after OMD.

What, the marriage got martyrized? 'Cause yeah, I can see that lol.

She wasn’t even a character.

To think Gwen at her best was back in Ditko's run, and she was basically Liz in that, before and after Liz's character development at once, after that, she was MJ-lite before she got together with Peter, and once she got together with Peter, the best way to describe her is "Female love interest".

[Vortex85]

What, the marriage got martyrized? 'Cause yeah, I can see that lol.

Except it was actually good, unlike Saint Gwen, bringing in very relatable romance/drama/comedy in the book that is sorely lacking without it. I was reading the book again recently after the marriage when they weren't trying undo it with Amazing, Spectacular, Web of, in the 88-89 period and it is a treasure trove of moments that rival popular family TV sitcoms. The reason people care about Mary Jane so much is because of the marriage honestly. That elevated her character to new heights and made Spider-Man and Mary Jane for Marvel what Clark and Lois are for DC. So yeah, I'd take that any day over the crappy romance with Gwen who just got upset all the time the Peter disappeared on her because she didn't know he was Spider-Man.

[Lukmendes]

Except it was actually good, unlike Saint Gwen, bringing in very relatable romance/drama/comedy in the book that is sorely lacking without it. I was reading the book again recently after the marriage when they weren't trying undo it with Amazing, Spectacular, Web of, in the 88-89 period and it is a treasure trove of moments that rival popular family TV sitcoms. The reason people care about Mary Jane so much is because of the marriage honestly. That elevated her character to new heights and made Spider-Man and Mary Jane for Marvel what Clark and Lois are for DC. So yeah, I'd take that any day over the crappy romance with Gwen who just got upset all the time the Peter disappeared on her because she didn't know he was Spider-Man.

Never said it was on Gwen's level (I almost actually dislike Gwen with how poorly written she is), but when OMD whining is too high, we have people who talk like marriage was perfect, some years ago I was even scratching my head at marriage fans praising RYV when that comic became mediocre at best after Conway left real fast (And it wasn't that interesting even under him or Slott, but it could be alright), and the "at best" didn't last for long.

For the record, I prefer Peter with MJ as I feel like it improves both of their characters, something I hardly see with relationships in general in media, but I'm not going deny the awkward downs it had, 'cause I don't like sugarcoating.

[Kevinroc]

Never said it was on Gwen's level (I almost actually dislike Gwen with how poorly written she is), but when OMD whining is too high, we have people who talk like marriage was perfect, some years ago I was even scratching my head at marriage fans praising RYV when that comic became mediocre at best after Conway left real fast (And it wasn't that interesting even under him or Slott, but it could be alright), and the "at best" didn't last for long.

For the record, I prefer Peter with MJ as I feel like it improves both of their characters, something I hardly see with relationships in general in media, but I'm not going deny the awkward downs it had, 'cause I don't like sugarcoating.

It doesn't help that OMD happened at the end of JMS' run, when the writing between Peter and MJ was probably the best it had ever been.

[Agent Z]

I've seen more people demonizing Gwen than I've seen of her being sugarcoated. Same with how I see more people act like the marriage was abusive and dysfunctional compared to anyone who acts like it was perfect.

[Lukmendes]

It doesn't help that OMD happened at the end of JMS' run, when the writing between Peter and MJ was probably the best it had ever been.

Yeah, while JMS' writing got worse after Romita Jr. left (With Sins Past happening on the very next issue even lol), his writing of the marriage was still alright on the issues I checked.

I've seen more people demonizing Gwen than I've seen of her being sugarcoated. Same with how I see more people act like the marriage was abusive and dysfunctional compared to anyone who acts like it was perfect.

I mean, here, sure, Gwen is talked about more how she actually was than anything else (At times demonized too much, but that happens anywhere), but public perception about Gwen was for a long time that she's the perfect love interest who Peter lost, and MJ may or may not measure up to her, and similarly, marriage may be talked about like it was horrible, or fuckin' perfect.

Basically people may like to talk in extremes lol.

And the sugarcoating comment is about how I think in particular, 'cause I try to learn how stuff actually is like.