Controversial Spider-Man Opinions

[Kaitou D. Kid]

No matter what happens, Norman and Otto will never stay good guys. That's like Joker and Luthor becoming good guys.

[Agent Z]

No matter what happens, Norman and Otto will never stay good guys. That's like Joker and Luthor becoming good guys.

Isn't this the type of attitude some of us have been arguing against? That the Spider-Man stories shouldn't be allowed to change in order to preserve some vaunted iconography?

[Frontier]

It feels weird to me that we would talk about two of the most awful people in the Spider-Verse and act like they deserve to be good guys.

Like as entertaining as Superior was, it didn't really negate for me that Otto was a horrible person who committed several extreme violations of Peter's body. Why does he deserve to be a hero?

Not really.

Felicia confessed her life had something missing and Peter told her his secret.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that Felicia committed several serious crimes while in full possession of her sensibilities - put Aunt May’s life in danger, even - and has yet to atone in a Spider-book nor has Peter addressed the fact that she hasn’t paid for her crimes. Not knowing someone’s secret isn’t an excuse for committing major crimes.

And it makes Peter a hypocrite - “Sure, I”ll fight crime and bring criminals to justice, but sexy women in black leather catsuits get a pass because, sexy.”

But then, Felicia is still happily thieving and Peter is apparently turning a blind eye, just more character breaking OOC from Wells.

There really wouldn't be a proper way to reconcile all those crimes and attacks especially because she was written so OOC when committing them to begin with. She was helping Peter in that arc and being an ally to him as well.

Her thieving isn't really harming anybody and she did get arrested at the end of McKay's solo run.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Spider-Man x Black Cat is just a bad ship. The only way it could "work" would require either Felicia (she stops being a thief) or Peter (he just constantly looks the other way) to act completely OoC.

(And this is without getting into how MJ has to be written to even get to this point.)

The appeal of the Black Cat relationship is that it's Spider-Man with a superhero partner or costumed girlfriend, and someone who was a criminal before but who Peter helped redeem (more or less).

Doesn't make it an endgame ship, bu it is part of the appeal of the relationship that makes it work.

Vulture is still a villain and there is a new Electro. I don't think the original one was that popular to begin with anyway.

I always liked Dillon.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Isn't this the type of attitude some of us have been arguing against? That the Spider-Man stories shouldn't be allowed to change in order to preserve some vaunted iconography?

It isn't about iconography.

Archenemies serve a purpose. That makes them part of the overall engine (metaphorically speaking) that generates good Spider-Man stories.

To get rid of an archenemy, you have to replace them with an even more believable one. So far they haven't been able to do that.

There is also the question of "should". As in: Should one of the only Spider-Man villains who gets redemption be Marvel's #1 corporate tycoon, and would that not reek of how rich criminals in real life are given multiple second chances while the poor ones are not? It would come off in even more poor taste than it already does in Wells' run.

[Kevinroc]

The appeal of the Black Cat relationship is that it's Spider-Man with a superhero partner or costumed girlfriend, and someone who was a criminal before but who Peter helped redeem (more or less).

Doesn't make it an endgame ship, bu it is part of the appeal of the relationship that makes it work.

She is still a criminal. She is still stealing things despite "being" with Peter (and I'm not talking about the current mini where she and MJ are forced to steal a thing for Belasco). And Peter knows this.

The whole relationship is completely contrived.

[Jman27]

She is still a criminal. She is still stealing things despite "being" with Peter (and I'm not talking about the current mini where she and MJ are forced to steal a thing for Belasco). And Peter knows this.

The whole relationship is completely contrived.

Batman makes it work with cat woman and she even kill people

[Kevinroc]

Batman makes it work with cat woman and she even kill people

If you want to read Batman x Catwoman, you can. I don't want or need Spider-Man to be Batman.

(Also, Felicia has killed people.)

[Daibhidh]

She is still a criminal. She is still stealing things despite "being" with Peter (and I'm not talking about the current mini where she and MJ are forced to steal a thing for Belasco). And Peter knows this.

The whole relationship is completely contrived.

It's not as if we'd want Felicia to reform. Ideally, I think she'd occupy Marvel's, Steals but only from People who Deserve it role with a possible side of Rob from the rich, Give to the Poor. But Peter would feel obliged to disapprove if he knew about the specifics of what she is up to. And we wouldn't want him not to, and we wouldn't want him to be under any illusions.
So yes. The relationship is an insult to both characters.

[TinkerSpider]

I
There really wouldn't be a proper way to reconcile all those crimes and attacks especially because she was written so OOC when committing them to begin with.

But they still happened. Yes, she was utterly OOC but it's still part of the story. She hurt people. She threatened Aunt May.

She was helping Peter in that arc and being an ally to him as well.

She's still commiting wrong. Both morally and legally.

Her thieving isn't really harming anybody and she did get arrested at the end of McKay's solo run.

Oh? So Spidey should cease stopping robberies, because no one is hurt?

Theft does hurt people. Just because there is no physical injury doesn't mean being robbed isn't a psychological violation and affects one mentally. It also takes away resources, such as law enforcement, that could be better used to protect people from physical harm.

Look, I like Felicia. A lot. But she's a thief, despite being likable. This feels like not wanting her to face consquences of her actions just because she's likable/sexy/whathaveyou.

People never say, "On, the Looter, what harm does he really do, let him loot things." "Oh, Paste Pot Pete, he's harmless, Spidey should just turn a blind eye." "Oh, Spidey should have never webbed up those random robbers and left them hanging on a lamp post for law enforcement, they weren't hurting any one, the random robbers should be free to continue to randomly rob at will."

The appeal of the Black Cat relationship is that it's Spider-Man with a superhero partner or costumed girlfriend, and someone who was a criminal before but who Peter helped redeem (more or less).

Doesn't make it an endgame ship, bu it is part of the appeal of the relationship that makes it work.

But she's not redeemed. She's still thieving. She outright said that to Peter in the infamous "I get sick to my stomach asking girls out" scene by Wells.

It's not as if we'd want Felicia to reform. Ideally, I think she'd occupy Marvel's, Steals but only from People who Deserve it role with a possible side of Rob from the rich, Give to the Poor. But Peter would feel obliged to disapprove if he knew about the specifics of what she is up to. And we wouldn't want him not to, and we wouldn't want him to be under any illusions.
So yes. The relationship is an insult to both characters.

Co-signed. And while Felicia being a Robin Hood-type might gain reader sympathy, that should still highly offend Peter's morals and sense of responsibility.

Felicia and Peter work so well as people who care for each other deeply with discernable sexual tension between them but who know their vastly different morals and world outlooks would lead only to tragedy if they ever tried to be a romantic couple again. And I can't believe Wells is just bulldozing over all of MacKay's and Spencer's terrific character work with Felicia just because apparently "busty blonde in skin tight catsuit, ooh sexy, want her on Peter's arm."

You know who Felicia needs? A partner who would keep her on her toes, who would throw HER off balance. Someone whose world is compatible with hers. If she were with Peter long term, he would bore her to tears. His Boy Scout ways are charming in their novelty to her, and she likes the chase, of seeing if she can get the Boy Scout to join in her world of grays, but she doesn't really respect his world nor his morals and she would be day drinking by 10 AM if the two of them settled down and she had to give up her world. And there is no way their two worlds can co-exist happily.

Search your hearts, you all know it to be true LOL

Batman makes it work with cat woman and she even kill people

Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne are vastly different characters with vastly different moral frameworks who want vastly different things out of life and who see the world through diametrically opposed lens.

If you want to call Felicia a Selina rip-off, be my guest although that's not correct, either.

[Frontier]

She is still a criminal. She is still stealing things despite "being" with Peter (and I'm not talking about the current mini where she and MJ are forced to steal a thing for Belasco). And Peter knows this.

The whole relationship is completely contrived.

I mean, it was a relationship that was built up a lot in the 80's and across multiple runs, so I don't think it's completely contrived even with all the character swerve's Felicia's been through. I don't think Peter ever approves of her stealing stuff though he knows she's not a malicious and violent criminal (when not written OOC).

If you want to read Batman x Catwoman, you can. I don't want or need Spider-Man to be Batman.

(Also, Felicia has killed people.)

It's a good thing Peter and Felicia are distinct characters from Bruce and Selina.

The appeal of Felicia isn't even just that she's a Catwoman type or her personality but that she stands out compared to Spidey's other love interests.

But they still happened. Yes, she was utterly OOC but it's still part of the story. She hurt people. She threatened Aunt May.

But, again, she was utterly OOC and it was bad writing. I don't think we need to keep dwelling on it.

She's still commiting wrong. Both morally and legally.

And she does face consequences for those, eventually.

Oh? So Spidey should cease stopping robberies, because no one is hurt?

Theft does hurt people. Just because there is no physical injury doesn't mean being robbed isn't a psychological violation and affects one mentally. It also takes away resources, such as law enforcement, that could be better used to protect people from physical harm.

I never said he should? I mean, I'm just talking about the high-grade thefts she committed in her own books that I don't think lent itself to any of what you imply.

Look, I like Felicia. A lot. But she's a thief, despite being likable. This feels like not wanting her to face consquences of her actions just because she's likable/sexy/whathaveyou.

That's not my intention.

People never say, "On, the Looter, what harm does he really do, let him loot things." "Oh, Paste Pot Pete, he's harmless, Spidey should just turn a blind eye." "Oh, Spidey should have never webbed up those random robbers and left them hanging on a lamp post for law enforcement, they weren't hurting any one, the random robbers should be free to continue to randomly rob at will."

I think even Peter goes to different degrees depending on the criminal/villain he's fighting because not all of them are Sinister Six level. But I don't think that's comparable to Felicia.

But she's not redeemed. She's still thieving. She outright said that to Peter in the infamous "I get sick to my stomach asking girls out" scene by Wells.

She's redeemed in the sense that she's more caring and prone to do the right thing when she needs too than she would've been before she met Peter, and she'll go to bat for him whenever he needs her too.

Co-signed. And while Felicia being a Robin Hood-type might gain reader sympathy, that should still highly offend Peter's morals and sense of responsibility.

Felicia and Peter work so well as people who care for each other deeply but who know their vastly different morals and world outlooks would lead only to tragedy if they ever tried to be a romantic couple again. And I can't believe Wells is just bulldozing over all of MacKay's and Spencer's terrific character work with Felicia just because apparently "busty blonde in skin tight catsuit, ooh sexy, want her on Peter's arm."

Again I don't see them as an endgame ship but they have a very important relationship with each other no matter what.

But maybe it's because I read that issue of Sensational where she pours her heart out for Peter while trying to save him and the Parkers from Rhino and that really stuck with me.

[Kevinroc]

I mean, it was a relationship that was built up a lot in the 80's and across multiple runs, so I don't think it's completely contrived even with all the character swerve's Felicia's been through. I don't think Peter ever approves of her stealing stuff though he knows she's not a malicious and violent criminal (when not written OOC).

The problem is you can really only do that story once. At this point Peter knows Felicia is a thief. She isn't changing. Him being with her now, when he knows she is still thieving, is a tacit endorsement of her behavior and is absolutely out of character.

It's a good thing Peter and Felicia are distinct characters from Bruce and Selina.

The appeal of Felicia isn't even just that she's a Catwoman type or her personality but that she stands out compared to Spidey's other love interests.

She is still a cat-themed criminal being paired up with an animal-themed superhero. Another poster made the comparison between Batman x Catwoman and Spider-Man x Black Cat. It isn't like it's out of nowhere.

[TinkerSpider]

Again I don't see them as an endgame ship but they have a very important relationship with each other no matter what.

But maybe it's because I read that issue of Sensational where she pours her heart out for Peter while trying to save him and the Parkers from Rhino and that really stuck with me.

But friendship is a very important ship.

In fact, being Peter's friend elevates Felicia above just a love interest. Because lovers can come and go, but friends tend to stick even when love relationships go sour.

I guess my bias is toward stores that acknowledge female characters can play important roles in heroes' lives without being relegated to "girl on arm." As Peter's close friend - who probably knows him better than anyone except MJ and May - Felicia can play a key and unique role in Peter's life.

But put her back into the love interest role - and it really feels as if Wells is going to try for a Betty and Veronica situation once he resolves "What Peter Did," with Peter torn between MJ and Felicia (only now MJ is Betty, with MacKay putting that subtext into text in Mary Jane and Black Cat: Beyond) - and she's just another girl for Peter to vacillate over.

[Jman27]

The problem is you can really only do that story once. At this point Peter knows Felicia is a thief. She isn't changing. Him being with her now, when he knows she is still thieving, is a tacit endorsement of her behavior and is absolutely out of character.

How is it out of character i never see Spider-Man trying to arrest her. How much does he really care about her stealing?

[Kevinroc]

How is it out of character i never see Spider-Man trying to arrest her. How much does he really care about her stealing?

"Spider-Man doesn't care that the woman he's seeing steals" doesn't sound like Spider-Man.

[Jman27]

"Spider-Man doesn't care that the woman he's seeing steals" doesn't sound like Spider-Man.

Then tell me why he doesn’t arrest her already. Why should he care the moment they started dating? He should have cut her off the moment they met then?